Easy to do simply on a scope using test bench cd's, just a flat across the board 30db channel separation with resistance across left and right channels, but to get it follow like a cartridge takes quite a bit more complexity. Bit of a channel separation discussion on the Vinyl Engine https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=44346Cheers George |
It must be very sad to believe that everything we find attractive in this hobby is an artefact or coloration Ah yes, but not sad, just understandable, As I said this was only with old stuff Beatles, Beach Boys ect. that was recorded and voiced with no digital involved, and where the "channel separation null’ing network" worked a treat with digital. With later stuff recorded and voiced on digital equipment, the null’ing circuit is definitely better left out, and to me far better through the digital gear, and not through vinyl. Cheers George |
folkfreak
Having said all that spinning vinyl has turned out to be so much more rewarding these last few days Funny you should mention vinyl, I also love to listen to it now and then especially on old stuff like Beatles ect which kills the digital of the same thing, which tends to be cold and very pin-pong from left to right, and no bass or body to the vocals like vinyl does. So I knuckled down to find out why I preferred it with old stuff over digital , besides all the clicks and pops, was the channel separation. So I concentrated on the channel separation of vinyl, and at best it’s 30-40db at 1khz, above and below that, it worse almost mono in the bass, digital is over 100db separation across the audio band 20hz -20khz in most cases So what I did was make a switchable network circuit to bleed the left into right and visa versa on the output of my cd player to blend the channel separation from 100db down to 30db and instantly you could hear those old Beatles, Beach Boys, ect come to life. Almost gone was the exaggerated ping-pong effect, the bass was richer because it was "mono’ized" and the voices had more body because the of the richer bass, the only down side was the image wasn’t as spread across the room, which is also understandable, because of the "mono’isation". But all this and still no clicks pops and surface noise, it’s a winner. This CD/digital "vinyl mimicking" circuit with far more complexity would be even closer to vinyl, if below 1khz the 30db it would follow the vinyl’s worsening channel separation in the bass and treble. Cheers George |
I believe that there is a hint, of seeing/hearing the forest through the trees perhaps?.
Cheers George |
ps interesting that only now do you talk about bit stripping .. Please read the first page, starting 1/3 down, I mention it in 4 post! I've heard of selective hearing, but selective reading? Cheers George |
I’d try the 0.2V output setting on the Vivaldi if you attenuated between 9.5dB and 14dB; this way you’d be able to run the volume control to max, with no more than 5dB of attenuation. Yes seigen has the right idea, this way you run minimal risk of "bit stripping" Wadia and ML know about it. Here is what Wadia says with their digital domain volume control products, also Mark Levinson has the same instructions with theirs. As they both have gain setting links on their analogue output buffers, so this is level preset to allow the sources digital volume control work at near full volume with no "bit stripping" https://ibb.co/kc4OCoAlso a very true and correct statement by seigen with a band-aid fix at the end. My take is that if you wouldn’t prefer the Vivaldi direct on its 0.2V output setting to the preamp route, you don’t really like how the DAC sounds and prefer the coloration/enhancement that the preamp gives you. Cheers George . |
By the way the OP ask for "comparisons and to elucidate the differences. This is what folkfreak did in fact do. Well don’t jump on Johndoe’s case for doing just that, forest and trees. You aren’t experiencing straight wire with gain. No it’s straight wire with NO gain, even better as there's no gain circuit. |
charles1dad
Johndoe,
It may be better to run the Vivaldi DAC straight to the power amplifier for you.
Strange how this seems to be discounted because it doesn’t meet someone else’s expectations. Very strange behavior.
Give it a rest Charles, same goes for you too, the other way round, can’t see the forest through the trees.? Look at the heading of the thread again! And it’s not by folkfreak. Johndoe is answering to the question by sthekepat the OP of this thread! "Running DCS Vivladi DIRECT?" Cheers George |
Well put
jareko, enjoy your literary skills. Hope you hang around.
Cheers George |
george, are you referring to the ICs or speaker cables?
IC’s, I have a bi-amped active to the bass and passive to the highs, all driven from the source By the way, my (limited) experience with speaker cables is consistent with your remarks about silver being a bit drier sounding than copper. Every time I tried it it’s been my experience as well. And I use the word "lit up", rather than dryer or even colder. Cheers George |
Well written and explained, your plus’s for going direct are all expected improvements, especially the transparency reference (ability to distinguish artificial reverb).
Any negatives are possible the result of the source it’s self, or maybe the type of interconnects used as there is 10mt per side of it and any character it has will be magnified by that length, WEL Signature interconnect is silver, and to me silver interconnects can have a cold quality to the mids/highs but is great for tightness of bass.
I use it on the bass but for mids and highs I use ofc cooper.
But it’s with the preamp that lets you relax into the music more then it’s the colouration you need to counter any negatives.
Cheers George |
Yes two different sound will be presented.
1: Either better with preamp, and not so without, which means to me, don't like the sound of the source.
2: Or better without preamp not so good with, which means to me don't like the sound of the preamp.
Cheers George |
I know the earlier Ring Dac chips were SE in output, in these the analog SE outputs after the chip sounded better, due to one less amplification stage in the signal path that wasn’t needed. (just like a preamp)
Cheers George
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The Vivaldi driving a 600 ohm load is commendable, no denying that fact. The VTL MB 450 has an input impedance of 42K. So the question is which option provides the best sound quality
This is where things fall apart, the "best" to me is like a piece of wire, the most transparent/dynamic/least coloured/distortion. So how can a preamp provide the best sound "quality" if it colours the sound? What it's doing is providing a colouration (which is distortion) that the listener prefers, but! all preamps sounds different, so which one with which colouration/distortion do you pick? Wouldn't it be better not to do a band-aid fix and to get the source sound "right" and forget about trying to change it with a preamp.? Cheers George |
Use a half dozen different DACs to drive an amplifier and you'll have 6
different sonic characters, they are not straight wire with gain.
Correct, why pile one on top of the other, just get the right one to start with..
I need to take in the DAC volume control and more importantly avoid the danger of over driving the speakers
And also just as important is not too start "bit stripping" if the volume is too low. Also it would be interesting to find out if the ring dac chip in the Vivaldi is single ended output or balanced, if single ended then to make a xlr output they would need an extra opamp in the signal path, which would mean the se output should sound better. But if the ring dac chip is balanced then the the opostie will be true.. Cheers George |
It’s surprising how definitive people can be based on measurements of components they do not own, and may never have actually heard? Only when things are dismissed, and the opposite said, too much of this goes on, and many have been shown the wrong way because of it. Without measurements your left with hear-say and voodoo, good luck to you going that way. " I run my Vivaldi into an ARC Ref 40 and this is a great combination, the RF then drives 10M of balanced cable to my amps - something the Vivaldi would not be comfortable with at all" and then this confusing statement for the same poster? " VTL MB450III, but not sure why that’s relevant as I’ve never tried driving them direct from the DCS ... "
Anyway I’m happy to connect my Vivaldi directly and report back. As I prefaced in my original post this is not something I’ve ever tried given my setup and my past experience with direct connected digital components which always sounded worse but I’ll have an open mind And if it’s doesn’t then there is a problem elsewhere, and going direct is showing it up. I believe there are two options of 2v output or 6v output. If so I would try the 2v first to see if you can get enough level, close to full up will be fine for loud listening (and you will NOT loose any dynamic head room) If anything it should be more Dynamic than with the preamp in the path.
The maximum level at 1kHz from both balanced and single-ended outputs was 2.035V with the level set to "2V," 6.013V with it set to "6V."
The worst you can have is to back off the volume less that 3/4, as you could start to "bit strip" if too low and loose resolution.. Cheers George |
Even a broken watch can be right twice a day ;-) Your all heart Sunshine. Remind me to give you a ***** ****** one day. Cheers George |
BTW this is from the Stereophile review and bench tests of the Vivaldi, from the reviewer
Michael Fremer who owns the darTZeel NHB-18ns preamplifier. and darTZeel NHB 458 monoblocks. Looks like he had no issues going direct to the monoblock amps, instead of the $23k NHB-18ns pre. I ran the Vivaldi’s directly into my darTZeel amplifiers for the last week of the review auditioning, and though couldn’t play any vinyl that week, I didn’t miss it.
Depending on your needs, you might be able to get away with just the DAC or the DAC-and-clock combo, which, directly driving my amplifiers, produced high-resolution digital sound that I found easy to warm up to.
Cheers George |
These Vivaldi tested figures don’t lie, can’t see the forest through the trees? It's not possible that a tube/capacitor output coupled preamp can drive 10mts of cables with an amp at the end, better than that tested output stage of the Vivaldi. " I run my Vivaldi into an ARC Ref 40 and this is a great combination, the RF then drives 10M of balanced cable to my amps - something the Vivaldi would not be comfortable with at all" and then this confusing statement for the same poster? " VTL MB450III, but not sure why that’s relevant as I’ve never tried driving them direct from the DCS ... "
Cheers George |
I run my Vivaldi into an ARC Ref 40 and this is a great combination, the RF then drives 10M of balanced cable to my amps - something the Vivaldi would not be comfortable with at all
I agree with Folkfreak the line stage in the Vivaldi is not as good as it should be - especially for the money.
This has to be a subjective colouration/distortion preference statement, or something was horribly wrong, one needs to look at from an electronic engineering viewpoint. The output stage of the Vivaldi (2.3ohms at 6v) will be far better at driving anything than what the AR Ref40 can possibly hope to. As this graph of the Vivaldi shows driving into an horrendously evil load of 600ohms!!! The AR Ref 40 has no chance in the world of doing these figures. https://www.stereophile.com/images/114dcsDvivFig16.jpg Fig.16 shows the output spectrum as the DAC drives a full-scale 50Hz tone at 6V into 600 ohms. The only distortion harmonics visible are the third, at –130dB (0.00003%) in both channels, and the second, at –126dB (0.00005%) in the left channel (blue trace). Intermodulation distortion was also vanishingly low.
Cheers George
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