Round Two: Best Speakers for LOUD music and rock??

Jeff: Out of the speakers that you listed, the Dunlavy's will be the closest to your NHT's but with a lot more "finesse" and "refinement" with much greater potential for volume. Other than that, the newer Legacy Focus 20/20 and the Montana's will probably do what you want them to do. VMPS speakers have a history of being kinda "fat & bloated" on the bottom end ( this may have changed ) and i don't think that the Revel's would be great R&R speakers. As to the JM Lab's, they definitely have a "house sound" and it would be up to you as to whether or not you liked them.

Scott: Personally, i think that Richard Vandersteen tries to discourage high listening levels for several reasons. First of all, his speakers will not play "THUNDEROUSLY LOUD". They simply aren't designed for it and you can tell when you try driving them hard. Second, he won't have as many warranty claims if his speakers are treated "gently". This keeps his customers happy as the speakers appear to be more reliable AND maintains a high profit margin since the cost of replacing drivers under warranty is reduced. Third, his cautions about high spl's make him come across as a concerned manufacturer and someone that wants you to be able to enjoy your equipment and his speakers for a long time to come.

When i talked to Richard and asked him about the SPL capabilities and power handling of his speakers, primarily the 5 but all of them in general, he would not quote figures. When i pressed him for greater detail with some specific conditions / figures, he about blew up and asked if i was "insane". The reason that i brought it up is that i was concerned with over-driving the woofer amp in the Vandy 5's. Given the conditions that i mentioned, he told me that i would. At least he's honest. If you've ever talked to Richard, you would know he's "too" honest at times : )

Other than that, i like Vandy's. They just aren't made to raise the roof and Richard will tell you that himself. Sean
>

When is the last time that you've changed or at least checked your output tubes ? Can you give us an example of what types of bands / music send your amps into "thermal shock" ?

For the record, with the sensitivity levels that you are talking about with those speakers and that size room, you'll need about four times the amount of power that you have to actually start "rocking". Either that or you'll have to find some speakers that are at least 95 dB's efficient and 8 ohms.

In my opinion and experience, you can't pressurize a room that size with 300 wpc running full range unless you have VERY efficient speakers, a LOT of drivers or preferably both.

Given the info that you just added to this thread, i'd start looking at the Montana's and the Legacy's. I don't know if you'll like the sound or imaging of either of these, but they should give you the volume that you're looking for. The Dunlavy's just aren't efficient enough for what you want to do and the amount of power that you have. Picking up some LARGE, very HIGH powered subs might also help out quite a bit, as it would relieve a LOT of strain and current draw on the tubes. Sean
>

PS... Let me know when you've given up hope, picked up four Klipsch Heresy's and are ready to start modifying them : )

Twl: I don't know if you remember my original suggestion in Jeff's first thread, but it was not that far off from what you stated here. I took it up a notch in terms of refinement over commercial models and chose models that are very easily modified into what is a "good" speaker.

Rlwainwright: I've used big horns of similar design to the Klipschorn's and 100 wpc is not near enough power to do LOUD, especially in that sized room. Besides that, the folded horn design that Klipsch uses can not deliver the "immediacy" on vocals that a direct radiatior delivers.

Marty: Thanks for the compliments. I think that Jeff is simply proving some points that i've tried to bring up before. That is, high level rock is difficult to do right if you try to take the "audiophile approved" method. He has very high quality high powered ( 300 wpc monoblocks ) audiophile grade ( ARC ) amps, big brand name speakers ( Genesis ) and still can't "jam" like he wants to. As such, sometimes you just have to put aside the pre-concieved notions and go with what will get the job done. Been there, done that and learned a bit along the way.

Having said that, the easiest way to get their is a multi driver array that is quite efficient and a LOT of power. The less efficient the speakers are and the bigger the room, the more power that you'll need. Simple, isn't it ??? : ) Sean
>

Scott: Speakers with first order crossovers "should" typically be more efficient than a speaker using a more complex and parts heavy crossover. If one uses very high quality drivers with good power handling characteristics, i see no reason why a speaker using first order crossovers shouldn't be able to play loud.

I think it boils down to how the speaker is designed. There are compromises involved when aiming for low volume detail or high spl capability. Many designers try to shoot for something in middle and i think that Richard basically aimed for lower to middle range spl reproduction. As such, he sacrificed high power output and concentrated on the listening ranges where most "normal" people end up doing 80% of their listening. This does not make it a bad product, only one that is limited in the grander scheme of things.

Like anything else, you have to buy what will work for you AND get something that you like. Speakers are VERY personal, probably more-so than any other component in a system. As such, one must pick and choose what models best fits their needs while taking into account the various trade-offs built into each design. Sean
>

Once again, i repeat that there is NO reason that a speaker using a first order crossover can't play loud. It is all up to the design. Just because the market is not flooded with such designs does not mean it isn't possible.

The easiest way to get around this would be to use a 4 or 5 way design with drivers that are wideband, relatively efficient and handle good power to start off with. Using this approach, you can still maintain time coherency ( if taking into account baffle step ) and minimize the strain put on any one driver. Since most designers using a first order crossover try to keep things simple, going to a four or five way design is kind of the opposite of what they are trying to achieve. Hence the lack of popularity of such an approach.

Keep in mind that in a first order crossover, more signal is fed into the actual drivers of the speaker due to the reduced amount of loss and "increased leakage" associated with such a shallow slope. Signal is "eaten up" by the increased amount of components necessary to build higher order crossover networks and the associated "notch filters", impedance compensation, etc.. that typically go with such designs. As such, first orders should play louder with less input and continue to do so until the components within the speaker system reach a point of "saturation" or "dynamic compression". It is only once the speaker has reached the point of saturation that the higher order crossover will be able to play louder, but it will take more power to do so. I am speaking of an apples to apples situation i.e. a speaker using identical drivers with both a simple and a "fancy" crossover network.

If you doubt this, try using speakers that have high level "fancy" crossovers with a GOB of parts in them. Speakers such as Dynaudio's, Nestorovic's, etc... need as much power as you can feed them for the very reasons mentioned above. The losses in the crossover are infinitely high compared to speakers like the Coincident's, which don't use anything but the bare minimum in crossover parts to get the job done.

I would love to hear contrasting points of view on this subject if one thinks that i am wrong. Sean
>

Phasecorrect: You are right about the Dynaudio's and their crossover slopes. I was thinking about them being "parts heavy" and confused the crossover rates. Their crossovers are not "simple" as they use notch filters, impedance compensation, etc... It is all that "extra crap" that sucks up power and the reason why you need a small generator to drive them to high levels.

As far as your preference for "open and deep" soundstages, there isn't a speaker made ( that i'm aware of or have heard ) that can touch a well set-up pair of Ohm F's in this regard. No crossovers, no multiple drivers and no "box" to get in the way of their 360* presentation. That is one of the major reasons that i love them so much. Sean
>