Room Treatments added, with negative effects..

Hey Aging Attorney!

No hard feelings and my intention was not to be so agressive in my responses (must be those new testosterone stimulating vitamins and herbs, I've been taking)

I too have been around the block a few times and I'm sure I'm years older than you so my "aging" moniker applies to me also.

And regarding the "precedence effect" it is only so effective. If a room is a cacophony of reflected sound even "it" will not help, so I am a strong beleiver in adequate room acoustics, acoustic treatment, set up and preparation.

Hope to see you again under less contentious and more constructive circumstances.

It is quite obvious that you are used to listening to your room, as well as your system.

Assume a "nearfield" (7-9feet) listening positions adjust your speakers exactly on axis, leave all treaments exactly as they are, and be prepared to hear your system, instead of room reflections and false ambience.

You will also have to use reasonable volume 75-80db or more to attain the precedence affect.

To Pbb,

Yes, I know how fast sound travels and have studied acoustics enough to know why nearfield is a valid method of reducing the effects of reflected sound.

It is quite obvious you don't understand the "precedence effect" and how it works.

It is also obvious that you don't understand the differences between direct and reflected sound and how the ear/brain interprets them.

Just so you completely understand my position, I suggest using reasonable room treament to reduce reflection to a minimum and listening nearfield to reduce exposure to what is left.

And the speed of sound really has nothing to do with nearfield listening or reflected sound since the moment sound hits something its amplitude is adjusted down, by absorption and dispersion.

When a sound hits an object part of it is reflected in a dispersive pattern, obviously in a different time/phase domain and some of the energy is absorbed (turned to heat energy)

The sound from the speaker that travels directly to us does not suffer from this, and is what your brain takes as real and if the amplitude is adequate, it takes precedence when the brain interprets the sound.

The resulting mismash of sonic haze from reflection/dispersion is no match if one is listening nearfield.

Maybe if I make this simple you'll understand.

Take a flashlight and set it atop your speaker. Turn off all the lights in the room and notice that in your listening postition the light shine on your face and some of the light disperses to the side walls, in fact it gives "low" light to all the room.

The beam in your face is direct. The one at the wall is reflected/dispersed. The fact that the light is traveling at the same speed does nothing to reconstruct the reflected light and make it a threat to the direct light.

Sound has the same properties, just at lower frequencies.

In a room, your goal is to reduce the reflected and maintain the direct.

So maybe you use Bose 901s and this doesn't mean anything, cause your listening to mostly reflected sound anyhow.

I don't know what experience you have in setting up rooms, but if you think you need to use headphones for the best sound, it would seem not to many.

In case you thought my response to Pbb was just to him, i have pasted my response to you in a seperate post.

I am rather familiar with your speakers and the designer. I concur with much of his design philosophy and set up parameters.

The Audio Physic Virgo is a speaker designed by Joachim Gerhard who is a master at soundstage and imaging.

Your speakers should create a well developed soundstage and sonic images. They should virtually "disappear".

The Designer suggest that you listen nearfield (6' is his suggestion which is "very" nearfield) and "if possible" set the speakers up on the "long wall" so that you have no sidewall reflections.

Both of these suggestions will reduce room interaction and reflection as I suggested.

Gerhard also suggests sitting rather close to the rear wall (which I might have reservations about unless you treat the rear wall) but the 2 feet he suggests will probably be fine.

Below is an exact quote of the Designers set up prefernces fo this speaker:

Gerhard's ideal setup is you against the long wall (room permitting), speakers 8' apart and 6' from the listener. This way the speaker is closer to you than it is to any wall: the first thing you hear is the speaker, not the room—thus, the room is effectively taken out of the equation. The only wall in play is behind you and closer than 2', so it's effectively out of play.

Try the desingers suggestions and see if it helps. If you want to read more about set up of your particular speaker, look here

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?147:3

All the best and sorry about the insolence.

Pbb,

I did not say that nearfeild was a panacea for anything. I said that it along with proper treatment will offer the best reduction of room interference.

You on the other hand say that unless you wear the speakers as headphones nearfield is a waste of time.

Then you obfuscate with some dazzling "speed of sound" questioning which clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge.

There is nothing I have written that says I don't beleive in room acoustics, but in "real life" the problem of room interaction and direct sound needs be approached from both directions. Just like an aging attorney to "try" and adjust the contention.

If you remember correctly the poster already had begun room treatment and it was not totally successfull. My suggestion to go nearfield was perfectly logical and did not eliminate additional room treatment if nessessary.

It was quite obvious you just wanted to see your contentious response as an authority in print.

Your assertion that a speaker designer "must" consider that his product is going to be used in a room is a lesson in the obvious, but no designer can design a speaker to work in "all" rooms. There is no "drawing board" or speaker that "fits all" by design.

Now to Outlier - The Audio Physic Virgo is a speaker designed by Joachim Gerhard who is a master at soundstage and imaging.

Your speakers should create a well developed soundstage and sonic images. They should virtually "disappear".

The Designer suggest that you listen nearfield and "if possible" set the speakers up on the "long wall" so that you have no sidewall reflections.

Both of these suggestions will reduce room interaction and reflection.

The Gerhard also suggests sitting rather close to the rear wall (which I might have reservations about unless you treat the rear wall) but the 2 feet he suggests will probably be fine.

Below is an exact quote of the Designers set up prefernces fo this speaker:

Gerhard's ideal setup is you against the long wall (room permitting), speakers 8' apart and 6' from the listener. This way the speaker is closer to you than it is to any wall: the first thing you hear is the speaker, not the room—thus, the room is effectively taken out of the equation. The only wall in play is behind you and closer than 2', so it's effectively out of play.

So Pbb, yes I do have it figured out since this is also generally one of my set up goals.

And to Outlier, try the desingers suggestions and see if it helps. If you want to read more about set up, look here

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?147:3