Room Acoustics, minimal treatment and measurements

Thanks @milpai , well said.  I think a LOT of peoples systems would sound significantly better with some objective proper room frequency treatment: night and day, earth shattering, dramatic, game changer, deeper blacker backgrounds, wider and deeper sound stage, dead quiet noise floor, massively increased details, etc.  :D

This space has (to me) NO bass.  The REW measurements reflect that pretty well and accurately: at 100-130hz there is a peak, and then every major frequency below is at least 10-15db down at each sequential frequency.  So for his room and it's construction, bass won't ever be an issue!  It's the reverb ring and decay that will always be a coloring factor and impact.

@erik_squires  See, I told ya!   ....you know....I genuinely (and you already know this) thought I was going absolutely crazy, especially the first listen when I got here.  He was beaming so proud and my first thought was ".....uh.......so are the woofers on a different amp?.......are you bi-amping?  Oh that's probably it, and you forgot to flip that amp on!......."   He has the grills on the speakers, so when he's not around I am going to pop it off and check and see.  In general though there is VERY LITTLE air coming from the dual ports on the back.  He is bi-wiring them from the Rega Illicit, and does not have the straps on the dual posts (usually not needed).

@mapman thanks for helping confirm my confusion too.  So the size of the room generates no real prominent nodes.  Honest to god, there is so little to no "bass" being generated that I walked around the entire space along all walls and floor and couldn't find a single spot that 'bloomed' or resonated or any note below 150hz that even sounded a tiny bit more prominent.  It's FREAKY!  Can you imagine sitting there listening to something 70x bigger than your own speakers (I have the Legacy Studio HDs in my little home living room) and you are listening to INFINITELY LESS BASS!!!  I'll post a pic of MY tiny living room's frequency response-just the bookshelf speakers. 

@simao my step father was an electrical engineer (microwave technologies) so he's pretty keen on things involving measurement and formulas, and Jim Smiths book was right up his alley. 

Legacy Studio HD Bookshelf Speakers-Tiny Living Room

@erik_squires I KNOW I KNOW YOU WERE RIGHT!!!!!!!! 😆

I’m gonna sneak down and pop the baffles off when he’s in the shower, and I’ll for sure do another quick room measurement. Do you know is there any harm to an amplifier with bi-wiring AND having the terminal jumpers attached? I know the speaker wires are properly fully connected from amp to speakers (I double checked that first listen)...but I am so curious to determine if it’s possible that the woofers are somehow NOT connected (internally?!). Though at the same time I am preparing myself for things to all be working properly....  ~Alan

@erik_squires and @mapman I just popped the front grill off and ran a 60hz and 80hz tone thru the speakers, and they ’move’, but their output (volume) is like 1/2 of a 100hz tone. SO what you see in the REW graph is at least what I’m hearing and seeing in speaker movement. To get a similar volume, I have to really crank the volume.

@erik_squires I see what you are thinking: that potentially internal to the crossover there is one of the woofers that is hooked up out of phase (reversed)? I’ll see if I can test that without changing wiring or removing anything (I think I have an app that puts out a test tone and reads the phase output).  I also know how to do that battery test you mentioned with the 9V, I'll see if I can check that out as well to see if both are moving in and out together in sync. 

@erik_squires   So everything is hooked up right, and phased proper (9v batter into the BASS speaker terminals-both moving at the same time......just very very little at 'nominal' volume). 

I'll try running one speaker at a time, and I'm trying to find the original straps to hook up as well.  I'm trying not to monkey too much-not my system kind of thing.  

I did do some measurements just to isolate the Tweeter from the Bass to see each for reference.  Red=Bass, Green=tweeter/Mids, Orange=full range.  You can see where the dual 7" cut off around 100hz.....and then the response just poops out. 
Without actually cracking things open to ensure something like polyfill isn't over stuffed or something, I am just a bit alarmed at a "18hz-32khz +/- 2db" speaker would in-room measure like that.  Now that I think of it I could measure at a nominal 2-3' and try to exclude the room as much as possible (more anecdotal since it's impossible to not have some room impact).
 

@erik_squires That's interesting I didn't find that when I poked around Stereophile, but I may not have been searching right and gone back far enough to look into the prior model versions.  This bass fall off has to be room size and placement-most everything else like you are seeing and noting falls fairly in line with the measurements (mine and older that you found). That graph from the previous version shows what I would have expected (and it's not that far off of what the baby Studio HDs do in my own tiny home). 

I am completely in line with you, I'd ABSOLUTELY want to somehow reinforce some better low end presence, or just invest in two sub-woofers and very carefully integrate them to not lose the really great detail and sound stage.  I am not certain he would go for it: I'd guess he's committed to the room formula, and doesn't feel like he's missing anything.  However, I got him to agree to do the room treatment  to absorb the ringing and reverb, and that will improve all the things he does like, which makes me happy.  Like you already know, it will also bring out/unveil some of the mid upper bass and warm things a bit which I am sure he won't mind and maybe like?

I was going to look into directly connecting to my laptop and running some mild experimental parametric EQ just to hear how the speakers would react to some mild tweaking.  I'm not a fan of it, but it's a cheap and easy and fast way to hear a span of possibilities.  It's just so sad and disappointing when I -know- something has incredible drum punches or room resonating cello pulls that feel like the cellist is leaning against you.....and here I sit.....like....."bro...do you even woofer bro?!"

Thanks again Erik!! 
~alan

@mapman I really think his system would benefit most from two subs like you noted.  That way he could enhance low level listening, get proper music reproduction, and NOT introduce issue while maintaining all the better aspects.  He's very old school that 'subs are of the devil' and totally useless, but there are so many aspects of the music he loves, that he has no idea he is missing out on.  My understanding was that these speakers were made and shipped during the very early stages of Covid, so it took awhile to build.  I did some basic phase testing and the woofers are working and moving in the right direction, they are just at a much lower level in comparison to the mids-highs. 

@erik_squires I was wondering myself if this is one of those rooms/spaces, speakers and systems that would be perfect for using Bi-Amping?  I honestly never knew of "active or passive bi-amping"?  My step father had given me his old Adcom GFA-555 (modified) that I bet would be PERFECT to be used just for the woofer end, and leaving the Rega Illicit for the mid-high which that amp excels at in general (details). 
As we noted, honestly a couple moderate subs would really change the whole presentation, while keeping the amazing staging and details.  Alas, that likely aint gonna happen!  But at least I learned a TON from all of this, and it has made me appreciate my baby system in my own house, that sounds just as good as this does (just NO WHERE near the same staging!)  😆

@erik_squires   Yea I'll do a sweep to see that potential dip.  Are you thinking there's some frequency cancelling happening or a cross-over issue? 
I've read up on MINIDSP and watched a bunch of videos on their use.  I think things like DSP is a MAJOR step forward in music reproduction (which yes can also be over done).  I  agree with you though I would still do all the heavy lifting with proper room treatment (regardless of speakers or equipment), then concentrate on "better" speaker placement for a better balance of frequency response and sound staging.  Then, the DSP "should" only need to do really minor adjustments and moves which will keep all the best qualities of all aforementioned aspects.  I would 100% bi-amp:  that would be another HUGE increase in audio quality and presence..

Morning @mapman .  The speakers are (now) 4 year old Legacy Focus SE, (link below).  From all I have seen so far, the woofers are working properly---but I want to try running pink or white noise thru them and measuring what the voltage is at/on the speaker terminals (inside the speaker).  I am 100% certain there is no way dad would change them for anything else.  Again, to him, things sound perfectly fine but he isn't aware of how much the basement is swallowing the sound.  What is that saying about how humans bias their hearing....?  😆  With that much bass fall off, honestly the only thing to fill that void would be subs.  Bi-amping and obviously making those best practices of balancing proper speaker placement for frequency response AND sound staging combined with proper room treatment all needs to be exercised FIRST.  He's locked himself into one aspect: most accurate "best soundstaging" based on room dimensions.  (I think I'm assessing that right?).

 

Hey @erik_squires   Attached is a screen shot of the 45degree reading with and without the woofers.  Distance was about 5 feet.

I'll take a look at the impedance sweep. 

@erik_squires I know, right???!!! Honestly my little Studio HDs one 8" woofer moves to beat the band...these are like a gentle wafting suggestion.  Which, I get in a way: there are two, in a big strong cabinet, they don't "need" to move a ton to move a proper volume of air.....but in this specific application they are like BARELY moving, barely generating output, and barely making 'sound'!