Rock: well recorded bass...60s/70s

Listened recently to The Strawb's "Grave New World" 1998 A&M remastered CD (album first released 1972). This CD sounds great (music and sound quality; NOT hot and harsh as for many re-masters)). In particular very much enjoyed John Ford's bass playing. I had not heard much about him; looking him up on Wikipedia, he has quite the resume.

Hey Loomis - Why was Yes very uncool? Have never before heard that directed at them. Guessing that was something you associated with all of prog rock?

Loomis, Bdp - Ah...OK, understand the context. Well, as they say, "there's no accounting for taste." I came of age late 60s/70s...lived through and survived them and (perhaps surprisingly) recall quite a bit from those years. Was a fan of Prog before it had a name. Was introduced to Yes & ELP by musicians who apparently liked both bands quite a lot. Being classically trained myself, I've always been attracted to music that blended rock with classical elements (e.g., Procol Harum). So, Loomis, w/respect to your (d) - you sort of do now. This is certainly not to say the genre didn't have candidates ripe for and deserving of balloon popping. I'll point out, however, that bands like MC5 (Kick out the Jams) and Blue Cheer (Parchment Farm is all you need to know) were Yang to my Prog Yin during these years. Didn't know I couldn't like both genres. I do get the reactionary elements behind punk but I'll take musicianship and musicality over attitude most days. If I want attitude w/music, I'll watch some videos of early Stones. BTW - Tales of Topographic Oceans might well be a terrible title but worse, the music is just not that good.

If you've not read it before, you might find the article at this link interesting.
History of Prog . Makes similar points as the two of you do.

Go check out The Nines' self-titled LP "The Nines". The one with Sun Don't Shine as Track 1. Digital only, I'm afraid. Crank it up. (Wish the drummer were better though).

Bdp - to remain cordial, we'll have to agree to disagree on a number of your points, I suppose. Not sure I find the verdict of your "we" about Blue Cheer compelling reason to change my own. Although the 2 songs you mention are probably the ONLY things they did that were half-way good. The Who's version on Live At Leeds is excellent in my view. Various covers of "Summertime Blues" exist and while Burton Cummings did have a great voice, so far as I know, the original was by Eddie Cochran. You don't mention MC5...what was the clique's take on them? In any case, I just mentioned those two groups (BC, MC5) to provide a contrast to the "art rock" I listened to.

Progressive Rock covers a lot of territory. Discussion at this link is interesting Definition of Prog. Let me close by saying that, depending on how you understand the genre, Cream is seminal to it. For me, bar none, they were and still are the ultimate rock band...which brings us nearly back to the origins of this thread as we pay homage to St. Bruce. Wish their recordings did full justice to his bass work. Even so, I've been listening recently to much Cream (Fresh Cream, Disraeli Gears, Live Cream and Live Cream II, Wheels of Fire, Goodbye) -ripped to hard drive. The sound is better than I recall (bass lines are clear and nicely detailed from nothing special CDs) and I'm recognizing and appreciating once again the formal classical elements in various of their songs. That trio had incredible talent - to restate the obvious. Jack's bass work and Baker's drumming provide one heck of a foundation for Clapton's improvisation. I can't say enough good about their music. So I've blathered on here...what's your ultimate?

Hey Loomis - it's good getting a well articulated and reasoned point of view that differs from mine. I don't mind mulling over the new perspective...might be some educational parts to it...might simply confirm me in my present position. I'd way rather debate the merits of music than gear in any case. Well said about Cream (studio vs live) and Procol Harum. I tend to agree about Cream live: their live jam-type stuff IS more uneven than the studio work, (undisciplined maybe...think Jack or Eric might have said that) but for me, when they are "on" - it is just volcanic...like some kind of molten metal pouring out of the speakers. Gotta play it loud.

In general, I fell mostly out of love with Eric after, say, Blind Faith. The thing that rekindled the flame was finding the Live At the Royal Albert Hall Cream Reunion video on YouTube. I think Ornette really needed those other cats. "Lumbering" and "not coherent", and (I'll add) pointless, ego-driven soloing? I'm not going to defend every note they played back in the day...but those qualities are definitely not in evidence in the performances culled from the RAH dates in 2005. Maybe evidence of a maturity. Anyway, thanks for weighing in. Hopefully, given this thread was started in '08, Phasecorrect won't be offended having it hijacked by this Cream discussion.

Tostado - That's a great quote by Jack. It explains quite a lot about that trio. W/r to Blue Cheer (and MC-5 even more) - YES! "pro to-punk" - good descriptor. Exactly why (in contrast to prog) I mentioned them to Bdp.

I'll take the "blame" for Bdp thinking someone said Cream was a prog band - though that's not what I said. Certainly, they were not one of the "art rock" bands (defining art rock as a sub-genre of Prog Rock) like I would consider ELP, Genesis, King Crimson or Yes to be. BUT if you read the discussion about musical characteristics of Prog found at the link here, to my ear and mind, many of these same elements are present in some (not all) of Cream's songs (e.g., We're Going Wrong, White Room, Tales of Brave Ulysses seem like good examples and I think there are others. Those are the ones that come to mind).
Prog Defined

From that same Prog Archives site, if you read what the authors are calling Hard Prog
(see link here: Hard Prog ), hard rock/heavy blues as played by Cream (and others) is cited as an influence on the Hard Prog sub-genre. If you look up the Wikipedia entry on Cream they cite Rush as a prog rock band influenced by Cream's live shows. When you read the Cream bio in the AllMusicGuide I see a strong overlap in that discussion of the prog music characteristics in the definition previously mentioned.

I'm not claiming the idea is original with me but independent of those sources, given Jack's and Ginger's jazz resume, Jack's classical training and Pete Brown's lyrics, and based on what I hear in some of their music, I think they were seminal to progressive rock; seminal as in "strongly influencing later developments".

Loomis - I was going to name Layla/D&TD (along with maybe, Journeyman) as an exception to falling out of love with Eric after Blind Faith. In the interest of the point I was trying to make, didn't seem worth it. I guess I'm kinda lukewarm on that album. Some of the song writing is pretty strong but the sound always seemed really crappy to me. And while some songs are very strong it doesn't have the energy or drive for me that Cream had. D&TD was a totally different place that EC wanted to be in. I don't hate it but if that was the only work of Clapton's that I knew - I don't think I'd be in love. Hey I have an open mind on it. Just saw Music Direct has a Japanese SHM SACD version of it. Maybe that'll be the ticket.

Enjoying the discussion. Apologies for my lengthy reply. I try to be complete.

Whart - Agree with you whole heartedly. The music categories get blurry and the boundaries leak (bleed into one another). 60s/70s were a fantastic period for music. I definitely appreciate the influence Britain has had on our "American" music.

Whart - I will happily take any advice you care to pass on. Good reminder about EC w/Delaney & Bonnie. I do buy vinyl but must say I'm not a serious collector...just not educated enough on what's original vs 2nd pressing etc. etc. I do prefer to buy older (even if not first pressing) as opposed to new, "audiophile"/re-mastered releases but it's a crap-shoot for me. I spend what I can afford and don't get too crazy on any single purchase. Some purchases sound better than others. I don't spend too much time fretting over my collection's resale value. Wasn't really thinking vinyl for Layla but tips on a good sounding version would be very nice. Thanks.

Whart - Thanks. Might well send you and an email.

re Bdp - Very much agree with your assessment of (his?) music knowledge. Might not always like the tone! or agree with a given position but good insights for sure and points worth considering.

Loomis, as always - helpful and constructive. Loomis BTW - too funny your assessment of "Have You Ever Loved...". Back when Layla first came out, I heard that song on FM but didn't know who had done it. Remember going in to a record shop looking for the album on the strength of "Have You Ever....". Think I knew it was Clapton but didn't understand at the time about D&TD. For me, that was THE song from Layla. In matters of art, at least, no accounting for taste (my own, In this case). Good comments re Layla.

Read something good about a silver japanese CD version of Layla over on Hoffman. Might go digital, at least as a back up should vinyl not work out.

Thanks to all.