http://www.sasaudiolabs.com
Found it, Steve.
Found it, Steve.
Review: Portal Panache Integrated Amplifier
http://www.sasaudiolabs.com Found it, Steve. |
>If it doesn't need a gainstage preamp, then it is already an integrated amp. Clear so far. This is where I'm confused, Steve. Let's say my CD player has attenuation and I run it directly into my basic amplifier. Where's the gainstage preamp? Your reasoning seems to say that the under this scenario, my basic amplifier has become an integrated. A light bulb did go off for me a few posts back. If the premap gain stage typically is placed after the attenuation, then you have this: Preamp = attenuation + gainstage Amp = gainstage + gainstage (two at least, right?) Now, an integrated could be the combination of the two above, i.e.,: =>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage + gainstage If I describe my intgegrated as having a "passive pre", then I probably have: =>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage So what I am really describing is an amplifier with fewer gainstages, a la the Pass Aleph series and some others. But to call the integrated's pre "passive" is a bit of a misnomer, I suppose, because how can you really say that the gainstage is part of the preamp and not simply the first of the gainstages in the power amp. Is this what you are saying? |
I will try to answer each comment in order. >>"This is where I'm confused, Steve. Let's say my CD player has attenuation and I run it directly into my basic amplifier."> Then your amp is not a Basic amp, but an integrated amp with the extra gainstage already incorporated into it. If it was a Basic amp, then you wouldn't be running a CD player directly into it and getting full power output. >>"Where's the gainstage preamp? Your reasoning seems to say that the under this scenario, my basic amplifier has become an integrated."> See above. If you can directly connect a CD player into an amplifier, it has that extra gainstage built into it. The amp is Not a Basic amplifier. >>"A light bulb did go off for me a few posts back. If the premap gain stage typically is placed after the attenuation, then you have this: Preamp = attenuation + gainstage"> Correct. >>"Amp = gainstage + gainstage (two at least, right?)"> Nope. Not unless you use something like a 300b or some larger tube types (very low gain type of tubes). Then two stages may be in order. An external preamp has gain, so a good Basic amp only needs one gainstage. >>"Now, an integrated could be the combination of the two above, i.e.,: =>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage + gainstage"> An integrated only needs two gainstages (unless a 300b or some larger tube types). The Basic amp, with its one gainstage and the preamp gainstage installed. >>"If I describe my intgegrated as having a "passive pre", then I probably have: =>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage"> Nope. Remember, only two gainstages are needed. The first gainstage was taken from the external preamp, when it was installed in the Basic amp, which only had one gainstage to begin with. >>"But to call the integrated's pre "passive" is a bit of a misnomer, I suppose,"> Yes. But remember, Drubin, this is what you have been taught. Some out there will try to teach anything to get an advantage in selling product. One still has the same Total number of gainstages, whether basic amp and active preamp or integrated amp. One simply moved the preamp gainstage from outside the Basic amp to inside the Basic amp (now called an integrated amp). >>"because how can you really say that the gainstage is part of the preamp and not simply the first of the gainstages in the power amp. Is this what you are saying?"> Because the gainstage that was added to make the Basic amp an integrated amp performs the same function as the gainstage in the active preamp. The gainstage was simply moved from one chassis to another. Following your line of reasoning, you can simply change definitions by location while the function of the gainstage remains the same? By changing definitions, the door opens where definitions can be changed at will. If everyone changes definitions whenever they want, all chaos breaks loose. There needs to be some standards, or no one will understand what is being sold. And some will take advantage by deception, as many know. Bound for Sound has published several articles concerning shills, the press, and manipulators. Interesting reads and very informative. Integrated amp means a putting together/combining of Basic amplifier and active gainstage preamplifier. It has some nice features, and some sound pretty good. In fact, I don't doubt the Panache is pretty darn good. Take care. Steve |
I give up, but not before I making one more comment: I have driven variable output CD players into a host of power amplfiers from Pass, ARC, CJ, and others. No one would ever describe any of these as an "integrated" amplifier because they had no preamp functionality, but each has at least two gain stages in them, as I understand it. If you are arguing that these are not "basic amplfiers", well, fine, then I don't know what you would call them. But no one would call them "integrated amps". |
I know Drubin. Things have gotten so confused because of all the crap/hype that has been bantied about over the years. I could tell you some real duzies. And the internet and the instant so called gurus have just made it worse. I could tell you some stories that you just wouldn't believe could happen. --------------------------- The only thing I can figure out is that none have a selector switch or volume control attached. Read my next comment but you better be sitting down. "but each has at least two gain stages in them" And you know what is really weird? I bet most could have had a Basic amp by using only one gainstage. Just as bad is all the extra feedback loops in the designs with two gainstages. And we haven't even counted the nongain stages and the feedback loops they add. I wonder if they suggest an active preamp besides? How about that for throwing away fidelity Drubin. The audio industry is in such disarray, I don't know if it will ever get cleaned up. Take care and let's end this string. Call me if you ever want to find out more. Steve |