Results from Beta Testers of New Formulas

The "latest and greatest" vinyl cleaning fluids about which the developer refuses to answer questions - questions that went unanswered in a previous thread - a thread that has somewhat less than mysteriously disappeared.

I read through the entire thread in some detail. Your interest in the topic is obvious and in playing devil's advocate perhaps was meant to stimulate more discussion, BUT your tone is antagonistic and uncalled for. If you developed a formula that you intended on marketing, would you go into any detail as to the composition? Intellectual property is always closely guarded, it's the differentiator that makes your customers buy your product over a competing product (or simply copying your invention).

Well, Jeff, if you actually did read the entire thread in some detail, you should understand that my obvious interest was centered upon the claim and the GUARANTEE that these fluids would not damage vinyl records. As such, I politely questioned about the research and study that had gone into the development of the product, visa vis its impact on plasticizers and the degradation of these components by cleaners. I also specifically said that I was asking for NEITHER the formula NOR a list of ingredients. My initial questions were then summarily dismissed by the developer (but your reference to “marketing” is most illuminating). But, if I WAS marketing a product I’d be happy to show that I had more than a basic knowledge with respect to interactions between certain chemicals and vinyl (which is NOT shown), answer relevant questions (which were NOT), and demonstrate that I’d done my homework on which to tout my product and guarantee (other than to say that I’ve been listening to vinyl for a long time and have a friend who works at NASA). IMHO, THAT is the differentiator which would hold me in good stead with potential PAYING CUSTOMERS, but thanks for your take on customer service.

Anyway, after I pressed for answers, I was met with derision by the developer who attempted to berate me based on the content of one of my previous posts – which had NOTHING to do with the question at hand. THAT was an antagonistic and uncalled for approach that you seem to either forget or choose not to mention.

I don't have a degree in chemistry and certainly don't work in the field myself; as such I rely on what I hear rather than speculate on how or why the fluid does what it does. I've tried Paul's two step process and it works very well. Paul was kind enough to send me some samples, that's the extent of my stake in this whole thing. I also know that Paul went to one helluva lot of trouble to put together a system for a girl that was paralyzed when hit by a drunk driver. Many folks here chipped in with gear and whatnot, but Paul put a ton of time and effort in helping out Leslie. I really doubt you'll gain a lot of points with people on the 'Gon for taking potshots at a truly stand-up guy.

I don’t have a degree in chemistry, nor do I work in that field, either. Yes, you have to rely upon what you hear. In the case of these fluids, I haven’t heard much – at least not what I’d like or need to hear before risking it on my vinyl. Granted, there was a time when I would not have insisted upon such information, but no more. After doing a good bit of my own research, I have keen interest in the development of such products and the developer’s grasp of complex chemical interactions BEFORE I use a cleaning fluid – free for now, or not. It is, obviously, anyone else’s decision as to what they do and how the proceed. As far as making points, get real. I’ve been on this board for some time now and have taken both popular and unpopular stances on a variety of issues. In my mind, the idea of this board is to ask, answer, and comment - in the spirit of exchanging ideas and information upon which to base decisions or to further our enjoyment. Period. If one is looking to make “real” points I might suggest anonymous charitable contributions.

Your point about helping the young lady is truly heartwarming, and I mean that sincerely. Too little of such goes on these days, and usually it does so only after the request of others. However, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Mother Theresa was a wonderful woman but, with all due respect, I’d have the same questions for her if she came out with a vinyl cleaning fluid.

At the end of the day an informed opinion is what counts. Take Paul up on his offer, try out the stuff and report on your findings. Costs you nothing and all of us will certainly listen to what you have to say.

At the end of the day, you are absolutely correct about informed opinion. But, one cannot be informed, as a matter of definition, without adequate information. I don’t feel the developer has provided anything close to that, which is why I posted my questions. It is still odd to me why he has chosen to avoid these questions. Surely, if he is a “stand-up” guy, he can get beyond his personal distaste for me and provide meaningful information to potential future customers. Then again, if he cannot answer them or feels the questions unimportant, that tells us all a lot, too. Performance in terms of how the fluids clean gunk from records is only part of the overall story. I hope they work for folks and that they do not damage their records with a product that was brewed without adequate knowledge of and background in chemical/vinyl reactions.

Oh and, BTW, the previous thread was certainly not “yanxed” as it was so flippantly stated. Nice try at yet another diversion, though. If I had to guess, I’d say that the moderators looked at its purpose and intent – offering a product for free that would later be sold on Audiogon. Even this thread was started by the developer to garner comments on his product that will later carry a price tag. It’s called marketing and it’s called advertising. Last time I checked, it was also against the rules here.

David

I am not one bit surprised that you've taken the approach that you have, Mr. Frumkin. But please, go ahead, berate me, berate my past views. It is evidently transparent that yours is an attempt to shroud your inability or unwillingness to answer the questions I posed with respect to the research that went into your product (which you NEVER answered, in spite of your FALSE statement to the contrary). To name but a few, I asked what your research (if any) showed with respect to the various plasticizers in vinyl records, what they were, and whether your product was developed to specifically avoid the degradation of those plasticizers. You DID NOT answer. I asked specifically about your experience with a particular phthalate - one of the most common plasticizers in vinyl records (do you even remember which one I mentioned?). You DID NOT answer, nor even acknowledge its existence. I asked if you had done research with respect to the composition of vinyl among different records labels and from different production eras within those labels. You DID NOT answer. To say that you have answered fully, meaningful and cogent questions, is being nothing more than disingenuous to prospective customers. But, yes, it is easy to say that someone is really not looking for answers when you’ve no answers to give. Too, it is so easy to say you won’t respond to me in the guise of avoiding the issue. Now it looks like there are perhaps others with similar concerns. Gonna answer them? Or, maybe, go dig up something they’ve said in the past to discredit them and take the attention away from you? And please, look up the definition of the phrase “empirical results”, it might help you in the event you decide to conduct and/or report on your development research.

OK, if you must label this as “busting in with an aggressive rant” (I thought you said this was an open forum), let it be such. I’ve said all I have to say on this subject. I think it is ultimately clear where you stand, or don’t stand. Let the buyer beware. Too bad it is often that way for all of us.

Best Regards,
David

Oh, and Jeff, I understand where your coming from in your response to Viggen, I really do. But, you mention RRL fluids. Try contacting Brian Weitzel at RRL or the folks at VPI, or the Disc Doctor and ask them the same questions I've posed. You may or may not agree with or fully understand all that they have to say, but you'll find that there is a basis, a process, and a background from which they've formulated their product. Nothing here, though.