*** Reed tonearm w/ Raven One table-how's the match ? ***
I have never heard a reed arm but they must be some of the BEST arms available. I like that they use a wood arm tube. I also like the fact that they have fine adjustments and to my eyes they are beautiful to look at too.
The acustic one table must be very quiet,well designed and neutral table.
This combo should at the very least be a great combo. Generally speaking, it is a superb combo but if you go past speaking generally and you move into 'aficionado sonic tasting' ultimately you must taste it yourself, contemplate it, spend some time with the combo and provide your own opinion based upon the taste buds that god gave YOU. This sonic tasting should be viewed as a pleasure and not a chore!
So, I dont think there is anyway that you wouldnt basically like the combo since they are great pieces, eventually the question will arise, is the sound i am getting with this combo more than i could ever want or expect from a turntable/combo? or will the sound eventually make me eye wander elswhere?
Im not assuming the answer one way or the other and no one can definitively answer it for you.
Is it a good combo?
Generally, yes, you can expect to get a high degree of sonic virtues from this combo.
Definitively, you'll have to try and see.
There are many flavours out there. Try as many as you can and find a way to enjoy them all as you are trying them.
With that said, I would venture to say, yes indeed that would be a very good combo! |
Opus88
Vertigo: Unfortunately, getting the opportunity to audition this combination in my own system is as difficult as reversing Earth's rotation.
I have reversed the earths rotation only once and it was hard! you have to reverse the detrotonic charge between pulses but only on the 16th day of a 31 day month, when you do it then there is no observable change. Thats why it never made the news.
but...anyways...
Based on the above:
We can only SAY it should be a good combo AND ...you might not find it totally satisfying to your tastes. Only after owning it will you know that.
You wouldnt want us to say...Oh its an amazing combo, go for it you'll be totally satisfied! then When something is lacking for you, you wonder where is the "amazing combo?"
There's nothing objective about our answers, if you want to just have fun and ask questions, i'm not knocking that just understand that ultimately only you will be able to answer the question of whether or not it is a good combo for you.
I dont like the kind of girls my friend finds attractive, its neither of our faults and both of us are right. I cant believe the ones he likes and he cant believe i like the ones i do...How do you get to the bottom of that? How do we get to the bottom of whether or not its a good combo?
This thread is just a fun discussion. And thats fine.
I'm saying this for all those who take threads too seriously. |
Hi Opus,
Once you start playing with reed arms and acustic tables you are starting to 'tinker' with some pretty fancy toys! You are now the head chef and connoisseur of sound.
Tonight i was shooting out a tron 7 reference with my audion quattro! The tron going into the linestage of the audion with a zen silver mk2 cable and cardas golden going from quattro to audion elite amp.
This is a good example of 'connoisseurship' wow...two great phonostages! Spitting hairs to find out 'best'. The differences are so fine and you have to really listen carefully. Its interesting to watch my ear develop over the years to be able to discern and pick up whats going on or not.
Then the results are somewhat effected by cabling and synergy its so fine it could go one way or another. I do try each component with a few different cables to try and make sure i am getting to the bottom of a component but there are so many variables that with a different system, who knows how the results would come out. This doesnt bother me , i just find it fascinating.
I mean audion quattro, tron 7 reference, this is pretty big league stuff! These designers are putting their all into these preamps and they are great but you can still hear their frailties.
Opus, did you know that at 40 years of age hearing slowly and naturally begins to drop off? Our ears are a pretty important component in the playback chain!
I guess i mention this because i am aware that i can have the most stellar playback but my ears are slowly starting to say good bye. Its ok with me. I'm just aware of this reality and we should come to terms with the degree of playback possible and come to terms with it and be grateful for what we do get. Tell you something you dont know!
I came close to buying a talea tonearm awhile back but ended up with a breuer 8c mk2.
I see components as colors on a painters palate and you and i are the painter. The talea like the breuer and the reed are great paints to begin to paint with. They're no silver bullet though... These are better than others out there because of the quality of their materials and design but more important than the paints is what the painter can put together. You're the painter! Use the best paints available as a starting point and create something unique and beautiful! The more you paint the better a painter you become. Its highly unlikely your first painting will be a masterpiece but just keep painting. Eventually we'll gain insights and get better. I speak to myself too.
I may be wrong but i believe putting together a system is an art that transcends 'this is better than that' so that good sound sometimes transcends price and hype. Make a system that transcends price, convention or hype!
May you love your sound! Good luck in your quest.
Have a good night. good night. |
Opus,
Wow..45 years in this hobby. Pretty good. Bet you must be excited by the strides being made in the last 10 years of hi end audio.
Opus, if you rap your knuckle on those dunlevy cabinets what do you get? Is the sound low and dense or high and kinda hollow? Are they particle board with veneer or what?
I cant seem to find what you are using currently for a turntable?
I think some of the qualities you seek as per your initial question would be found in a reed/acustic combo. The reed definitely wont be cold, shrill and ringy, i speculate just the opposite... looking at its construction materials.
There might be another way to get the qualities you're looking for. Maybe explore looking at the other end of the chain. The end of the chain. The speakers.
Maybe.
If you like soft edged, warmth, earthy textures, along with orchestral music, i would suggest the offrande supreme. Again i have never heard it!
BUT...
I have owned a modified spendor bc 1 and then went from that to reynaud evolution 3 mk3. Today, i have the reference 3a virtuoso's, which are less earthy, clearer more neutral type of a speaker.
I say the reynaud supreme because based on my experience with the evo 3 which was generally very positive but in the end, as i've moved on down the road a bit further, as good as it is, it is a little bit too dark, more translucent than it is clear! But...I know what that speaker was striving for and it was doing a great job and going in the right direction! With that little bit of context and with owning a neutral warm speaker like the virtuoso's, and from talking to bob neil of amherst audio, i would say the supreme would be a larger departure away from the slight lack of clarity of the evo but with the beautiful earthy textures of the reynaud sound.
The evo 3 was a B+ speaker for orchestral music, vocals and unamplified instruments, the offrande supreme will be a A or maybe even a A+ speaker because if it takes the virtues of the evo 3 but removes its faults it truly must be a great speaker for orchestral music.
I know its flavour will still be different from my virtuoso's but both these speakers excel at what they do and are champs!... but in different departments!
Ultimately, i would say the virtuosos are a much better speaker than the evo 3's but because the offrande supreme is supposedly superior to what the evo already does well, i imagine it would be a real close shootout between the virtuosos and the supremes.
The virtuosos do rock better but the supremes orchestral. The way the reynauds can imitate the woodiness of a acoustic guitar body is superior to the virtuosos because the virtuosos go a bit too clear so as to remove the textures of a wood bodied instrument.
What am i trying to say?
I think the reynaud offrande supreme is a speaker who's forte is ...the qualities you seek. You listen to mostly orchestral music you say. Why not have a speaker who's forte is reproduction of the classical music concert hall but isnt dark or opaque?
So, you could dial in the warmth at the front or at the end of the chain to get the desired results.
Yes, Opus, good on ya. See if small inexpensive changes can steer your sound in the direction you are looking to go.
I would experiment with mats. Or look at what your amps are sitting on.
I have steered from a sound that was brittle and hashy to warm and smooth by simply placing a ebony shim between my cart and arm.
Cut from the base and shaped from of a $3 statue i found in a thrift store.
Do you feel like taking a crack at trying to describe what you dont like about your sound? I'm sure it has good qualities but what aspects about it dont you like?
The reynaud offrande supreme might be a color you should explore painting with. (smile)
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Opus,
Hi...
I did not specify in my post but i did mean the newest reynaud offrande supreme. Yes, I am aware of those complaints, the first offrande supreme was considered a bit too "cerebral" except for use in some studio applications where that quality is sought after to dissect and direct a recording. It is the new offrande supreme II that i was thinking about and suggesting, this one is in the sweet spot of ALL the incarnations of the offrande and the pinnacle of j.reynauds work. Clearer than the oldest offrandes which were a few hairs too opaque and not as cerebral as the previous offrande supreme 1. I believe it is his personal favorite and flagship model.
I heard a vpi mark 4 and liked it very much. Musical, neutral and quiet. Really, a get off the merry go round kind of satisfaction is possible with it if you want to stop splitting hairs about this sonic parameter or that sonic parameter.
I have snell civ's too. When i rap on its cab it knock is "high and hollow". The royal virtuosos knuckle rap is "low, dense and short". Interestingly these two speakers exhibit a very similar sonic signature in that they are not romantic or syrupy but neutrally warm and musical. The virtuosos take all the qualities of fine snell speaker and improves on them significantly. Anyways, i hear the differences between these two kinds of cabinets and the degree of success they have in "tuning" the final outcome of the sound the woofer and the rest of the system produce.
The snell cabinets remind me of the distortion i used to hear with a b&W 602 s3 speaker i used to own which had cheaper cabinets too. The damped corian virtuoso cabs exhibit warmth, refinement, clarity and truthfulness of timbres. The cheaper cabs exhibit a coldness, a dirtiness and a mechanical hash. It "fumbles the ball" just before the signal comes out of the speaker. This is in degrees. And anyone reading this should not conclude the snell is not a worthy speaker. That is not what i mean to say. It is in fact at its price point on the used market a steal! for someone who is on a budget.
Anyways opus, as usual i digress a bit. But when i googled your speakers and saw a pic of their cabinets, i wondered if they were similar to my snells cause they look very similar and thought that maybe the reynaud could bring alot of things to the table that you seek. You're not looking for a speaker change. I understand no prob.
I like what Lewm says about cart arm relationship. From what i know and understand there is a chain of energy transfer not only going on between the cart and arm but also between the plinth/armboard and the arm as well. Then there is the relationship between the plinth and platter and record too. I'm not providing any new information we all already dont know, i'm just wanting to say that when i look at the puzzle, i really do see EVERYTHING as being important. Unfortunately, this makes discourse much more difficult. It turns our discussions to some degree to dogma. With that said we can follow general rules and experiment the rest of the way to arrive at a place that floats our sonic boats.
Opus, just as a friendly reminder, make sure you have experimented will with vta and tracking forces, and cartridge bolt tightening torques. That is, after experimenting with this and you feel you have a confidence that you are in fact hearing the table in ideal conditions, you can continue exploring a major change. I say this because i think even many seasoned audiophiles conclusions are amiss about a component simply because of set up.
Me included. Even just this last week, i started "re experimenting" with my allaerts and vta. My God, this cart is so sensative to vta. I was not hearing records like i should have been hearing them.
You know what brought the best results? Well, i currently have a 2mm panzerholz shim between the breuer arm and allaerts cart. Along with adjusting vta by 1/4 turns on the armpost i started fooling around with azimuth. How? by tighting one cart bolt and loosening the other. I must have made 5 seperate incremental changes like this one, re listening each time. The 1st time was a positive change, so i kept going doing the same thing. Each time it got better and better so i just kept going.
I realize that i am probably changing more the resonant relationship between the cart and arm more so than i am vta but all i know is that the focus improved and i got more music out of the grooves.
Just when i think i really understand the importance of proper set up i prove that i dont undertand it because i start looking around for a new component to bring some improvement to the neglect of experimentation. One is work and thinking, the other is the magic pill that will bring nirvana. This is a non negotiable for superb playback. There is too much we dont know about about how resonances will transfer. The only way is to literally spend hours experimenting and listening by ear.
Honestly, i have to laugh at myself as an audiophile. I really do smile and laugh and think it a great joke! I have a 5000 dollar cartridge and a similar priced arm and i'm listening to it in an unideal fashion? And i'm wondering where's the performance? Pretty dumb. Pretty human! |
****I haven't had to be really concerned with azimuth since that parameter is fixed with my SME tonearm***
It could very well be that your azimuth is spot on just by installing your cart and tightening the bolts. Equally so, it could very well be that your azimuth is "off" simply by just installing your cart and tightening the bolts.
Its not that you arent concerned about it, its just that your arm has kinda forced you to ignore it because to address it is going to be tricky and difficult because you have an arm that does allow for it.
Cantilevers get twisted, diamonds are installed sometimes slightly off, etc, so in an imperfect world experimenting with azimuth is important. Especially i think, with high performance cartridges which operate optimally within a very narrow window. This is one thing that frustrates me a bit on some days. You would think having shelled out alot of money for good playback would allow and guarantee you to just sit back, relax and enjoy your music when actually your given more grief, work and head aches and unknown variables! (ha ha! i am laughing! and shaking my head)
Good quote... " the easiest thing to do in the world is to playback an lp wrong!" (smile)
Opus, the breuer arm has no azimuth adjustment either but i still try to incorporate some method of azimuth adjustment. Whether its compressing one side of the panzerholz shim more than the other using the cart bolts or installing something larger on one side of the cart and not on the other i can at least get a radar fix (through listening) if in fact i'm close or not, to operating the cart within its optimal range of performance. If the playback suddenly sounds alot better than obviously something wasnt quite right.
The problem arises [going about it this way] as to discerning whether it was in fact the azimuth that brought about the change, the resonant relationship between cart and arm, the path the stylus travels along the record or something else? In the end i mostly by experimentation, by trial and error find the sweet spot where the sound snaps into "focus". In other words, i dont really worry too much what brought about the change but rather, more importantly that the change that comes is HEARD and IS good!
To add to this...through experience i have noticed that yesterdays perceived success in dialing in the cart to the sweet spot was in fact yesterdays failure since more experimentation, dialed in the cart even further. In other words yesterday experimentation was a "relative success" since we have no reference point for how good the cart can sound, until the sound is in fact improved upon the last improvement do we ACTUALLY realize what is possible!
I usually do this by playing a favourite well recorded track over and over and then when i've got it sounding real good i try it out across several different kinds of records. This way i eliminate the variable of different records being cut by the cutter at slightly different angles and skewing my perceived improvements.
Later, i only have to worry about vta from record to record as the other parameters should be pretty good now.
With the allaerts mc1b mk II i have noticed a "greying" of timbres, a slight mechanicalness and hash when azimuth ,vtf or vta is out. The richness, tonal density and silkiness is lost.
Its a poor return on our time and money invested to leave azimuth to chance by just hoping its correct. Hope this helps.
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***I've had very good results with adjustment despite the fixed azimuth of the SME, and have been able to hit that sweet spot with some regularity by attending to other adjustments.***
Or so you think.
Without experiment you cant say with any authority that it is in fact in the quintessential sweet spot.
This isnt a confrontational statement but just a observation based on reason and deduction.
You want to BELIEVE your azimuth is perfect but you take that by faith not by proof.
As i laboured.
Todays "sweet spot" isn't "tomorrows sweet spot."
Are you open?
From one audiophile "beggar" to another...experiment with your azimuth adjustment.
Take it to the next level and remove that question mark from the equation.
Do you want to progress or do you just want to chat? |
Opus,
Sorry if my tone came across a little "harsh". I'm just wanting to make sure that audiophiles don't neglect this important adjustment or understate its importance having tunnel vision by looking for problems in the wrong places, prematurely.
I think the kind of azimuth adjustment i am talking about is too fine to be measurable with a course spirit level and the spirit level can only tell you that the headshell is level.
I'm sure there are many cases where the headshell is level but azimuth is still out because of the way the diamond was glued onto the cantilever!
How critical it is to have azimuth and vta right will depend also on how sophisticated the shape of the diamond is. For example a denon 103 will have a larger margin of error but still sound as it sounds, whereas a sophisticated cartridge operates in a narrower margin of error and will not be as forgiving of extremely fine errors, ie, poor set up.
I thought i understood all this but in retrospect i have to say i affirmed or gave lipservice to its truths in word but in reality i didnt believe it to the level i do today. Or...maybe more accurately i had a intense paradigm shift in this regard when the allaerts came onto the scene. A fine, precise instrument it is. Really, I only got it into my thick skull by accident. I was experimenting one afternoon for maybe 3 hours with vtf, vta, and azimuth and realized that ALL my prior conceptions of having this cart dialed in were wrong!
Prior to that moment i made all sorts of critical statements about how i THOUGHT my arm sounded or how my SPEAKERS sounded. All wrong! Wrong to the point that i could have posted these items for sale here! Now those same components are amazing to me! Its a strange experience to go through that.
My appreciation for extremely extremely fine changes in these parameters went through the roof. My hope is that other audiophiles who are as slow as me, or havent seen the light on this yet... WOULD! To all those who already understand this , just ignore this post.
Have a nice day.
sincerely, |
Cut and paste for me where i say another method other than the human ear should be used for azimuth adjustment and then i will respond.(forced smile)
If you read my posts, i think you will see and distill from them my belief that the azimuth adjustment can be set by ear , that that is the method i use and that you can have great confidence in what your ears are telling you.
This issue was never the METHOD ...RATHER ...just that it ACTUALLY be EXPLORED! and i was in fact thinking he would do this through listening by EAR.
I would define perfect azimuth as the position of the stylus in relation to the record groove that most consistently rides the groove with the highest contact surface area possible within the physical limitations of the the diamond and that both sides doing this identically to each other. This to ME would in fact equal "perfect" azimuth. That is what i meant by the use of the word.
When i used the word perfect in a previous post the meaning i was pouring into its use is "ideal".
I was only wishing to encourage opus to "know" not just "hope" his azimuth is "perfect/ideal" through... experimentation and... listening by ear. It sounded to me through our discourses , opus and i, that there was the possibility to increase the enjoyability of his playback even further than he already is enjoying through what i perceive to be a slightly overlooked parameter.
*** How would you define perfect azimuth adjustment, in electrical terms?***
I wouldnt...is this a trap?
But to answer your question, i'll take a crack at it...hmmm, lets see? Cant you use an oscilliscope for that? So, i guess the definition would be "identically measured ouputs from each channel, maybe?"
Is it possible that my azimuth is still not ideal? Yes, i am open to that. That is why i champion "ongoing openness and continuing experimention" for myself and for others. Do i need to get a oscilliscope to be absolutely sure i have ideal azimuth? I dont know, i'd have to think about that for awhile.
But i prefer to streamline my use of space and not too much stuff lying around.
I think my ears can do just as good a job of finding ideal azimuth as a oscilliscope can.
Nobody really knows how good i am or how bad i am at setting up ideal azimuth, we'd have to test my results with an oscilliscope and then judge.
I do know one thing. I increase my possibility of nailing ideal azimuth because i am actually engaged in the exercise! but if i weren't and my attitude toward it is too relaxed what are my chances now of nailing it? |
Cut and paste for me where i say another method other than the human ear should be used for azimuth adjustment and then i will respond.(forced smile)
If you read my posts, i think you will see and distill from them my belief that the azimuth adjustment can be set by ear , that that is the method i use and that you can have great confidence in what your ears are telling you.
This issue was never the METHOD ...RATHER ...just that it ACTUALLY be EXPLORED! and i was in fact thinking he would do this through listening by EAR.
I would define perfect azimuth as the position of the stylus in relation to the record groove that most consistently rides the groove with the highest contact surface area possible within the physical limitations of the the diamond and that both sides doing this identically to each other. This to ME would in fact equal "perfect" azimuth. That is what i meant by the use of the word.
When i used the word perfect in a previous post the meaning i was pouring into its use is "ideal".
I was only wishing to encourage opus to "know" not just "hope" his azimuth is "perfect/ideal" through... experimentation and... listening by ear. It sounded to me through our discourses , opus and i, that there was the possibility to increase the enjoyability of his playback even further than he already is enjoying through what i perceive to be a slightly overlooked parameter.
*** How would you define perfect azimuth adjustment, in electrical terms?***
I wouldnt...is this a trap?
But to answer your question, i'll take a crack at it...hmmm, lets see? Cant you use an oscilliscope for that? So, i guess the definition would be "identically measured ouputs from each channel, maybe?"
Is it possible that my azimuth is still not ideal? Yes, i am open to that. That is why i champion "ongoing openness and continuing experimention" for myself and for others. Do i need to get a oscilliscope to be absolutely sure i have ideal azimuth? I dont know, i'd have to think about that for awhile.
But i prefer to streamline my use of space and not too much stuff lying around.
I think my ears can do just as good a job of finding ideal azimuth as a oscilliscope can.
Nobody really knows how good i am or how bad i am at setting up ideal azimuth, we'd have to test my results with an oscilliscope and then judge.
I do know one thing. I increase my possibility of nailing ideal azimuth because i am actually engaged in the exercise! but if i weren't what are my chances now of nailing it? |
(sorry about the double post) |
Your welcome, Opus.
**My desire to possibly seek some changes in my system's front end has more to do with attaining an overall sound balance which in part expresses or reflects the qualities inherent in the particular components I expect to purchase and which I desire.****
****qualities inherent in the particular components***
Your deduction of a thumbs up or thumbs down for that component is affected by azimuth therefore your conclusions will be skewed.
In my situation incorrect azimuth originally made me think the breuer was a arm that sounded "mechanical" and "cold" or that the virtuoso's were "hashy"!
Interestingly before i bought the breuer i inquired with a previous breuer owner and asked him why they sold it. He complained that it was bright? A what? 7000 dollar arm bright? anythings possible...but...anyways... my unchecked azimuth or other parameter would have corroborated what i now believe to be a incorrect assessment.
Azimuth adjustment shouldnt have to take any longer than vta or vtf experiment.
If you choose to assess components and build a system with unknown azimuth i suppose i can respect that its fine with you but i just dont know how thats going to effect the value of our future discussions about how this really sounds or that really sounds?
I guess were all different kinds of audiophiles. Who am i to criticize? I was just like that too and i guess i cant be like that anymore.
To this audiophile...trying to assess ACCURATELY how a component or system sounds without taking a look at azimuth is like navigating a ship through fog without the use of radar.
(Interestingly i've been in two situations. One where there was no radar, i was asked by the skipper to stand on the bow and keep my eyes peeled ,progress was very slow, the other situation was where we did have radar and the "blip" on the radar was on a collision course with us and traveling too fast for that kind of weather condition! (you cant see each others navigation lights til you're on top of each other so no one knows how the other is steering!Sometimes your both trying to avoid each other but in doing so youre still steering into each other! Luckily WE stopped to a dead halt and seconds later we saw a 60ft cruiser eerily pop out of nowhere and just zing by us! and as quickly as he appeared , he just as quickly disappeared again into the fog! Idiot! A very unnerving feeling that situation. Luckily he didnt split us in half !or ride right up over our bulwarks!)
Opus, you better start consistently checking azimuth from now on or i am going to call the azimuth police! to come to your door and fine you! (smile)
Yeah, i'm getting pretty ok playback now, after attending to azimuth along with the other parameters.
I just like having as many tools at my disposal as is possible. Plus i have fun at discovering the sometimes really profound changes minuscule differences can make.
I also dont like buying and selling a component for unjustified reasons. I feel sorry for component builders who probably have to hear " their x speaker is bright", when they know it isnt. It must really hurt. But then they are probably comforted by the fact that they know alot of audiophiles dont know what theyre doing.
The hi end industry to some degree thrives on poor set up. That is, there is alot of buying and selling.
No, the breuer in my context is not bright.
From where I'm standing i dont understand your logic but i have to respect your decision.
Sincerely, |
ps
***I have never in my life actually even thought, let alone hoped my azimuth was "ideal/perfect".***
Thats ok. Life sometimes allows for U turns! (smile) |
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