dbphd:
"The only thing that gives me pause about a receiver is that I do enjoy opera on Blu-ray, and, of course, Legends of Jazz, but that might be done by the DX-5 DSD to the stereo setup-- video goes directly to the projector from the disc player."
dbphd,
I forgot to mention an option you have for better quality sound on your Blu-ray music discs. You can use a very high quality stereo, or pair of mono-block, class D amps for the L+R front mains/stereo speakers and a separate 3 to 5 channel good class D amp for the center and 2-4 surround channels. This would increase the sound quality not only on your Blu-ray music discs but also increase the sound quality on all other discs and ht sources played.
All the class D amps are a fraction of the size and weight of your JC-1 monos and run no hotter than tepid, so you'd still be streamlining and you could always safely tuck these away out of view if you prefer.
Several professional reviewers have claimed some of the pricier class D amps provide the best sq they've heard, regardless of amp type and price. Some are even utilizing the new GaN transistors that are much faster switching from on/off than the typical FETs and eliminate dead time for exceptionally accurate and high quality performance and. I don't know your budget or interest in exploring how good class D can perform but it's just another available option.
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
If you're going to use an Oppo 205 or 105D as a source, your problem is solved and you'll only need a 5 to 7 channel amp and some cables. You also won't need the Bryston SP3 or a separate receiver.
Both Oppos have multiple ESS Saber surround sound dac chips that will decode up to 7.1 surround channels and send the analog outputs to up to 7.1 surround channel jacks on their back panels. The mains L+R/stereo outputs are a choice of either XLR balanced or RCA unbalanced jacks and all other channels, including the sub, are RCA unbalanced jacks.
You'll just need to connect these analog outputs directly to your choice of a good quality 5 to 7 channel amp, connect your speakers to the amp and configure each channel in the Oppo's Setup Menu in the Audio Processing section using the Oppo's remote.
In the Audio Processing menu you're able to view all the surround channels and hear a white noise test tone played through each as you scroll through them. You configure each channel by setting the Size(large for no sub assistance and small for sub assistance), Distance (from 0-60 feet away from the listening seat) and Trim (volume from -10dB to +10dB).
When completed, you can scroll through each channel and level match either by ear or using an SPL meter. There's also a low-pass sub Crossover Frequency section with settings from 40 to 250 Hz in increments of 10 dB.
I have an Oppo 105 and use this setup in my 5.1 ht system with all class D amps; a pair of mono-blocks for the L+R mains, a bridged stereo for the center and a stereo for the rear surrounds with the four passive 10" subs powered by a separate 1K watt class AB amp.
I was also looking to streamline and removed a separate preamp with a HT bypass switch and a Parasound AVC-2500 5.1 surround sound processor from my system. My whole 5.1 audio system was significantly streamlined and I actually perceive it as sounding considerably better using just the Oppo with directly connected amps. I think you'll likely achieve at least equally good streamlining and performance results with your system.
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
I thought since you have all the ingredients for a high quality HT system, an Oppo,KEF 204/2c center, a pair of KEFT301 as mains, four KEF LS50s for side and rear surrounds, two 15"subs, two 10" subs and an SMS-1 sub controller, you'd be going for something a bit more ambitious like a 7.4 or at least a 5.4 system. All you need is a bit more amplification.
I know you're looking to downsize but are you sure you want to downsize the fun, too? Isn't going from three JC-1s to a pair of A23s downsizing enough? Having your four Velodyne subs configured in a distributed bass array will sound awesome for movies, music DVDs and tv. Adding the full complement of KEFs to the solid bass foundation will just nudge it into sublime.
Your choice,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
I'm trying to help you downsize and streamline while still having some fun. Just the Oppo suggestion as surround processor eliminated the need for your Bryston SP-3 and a new receiver.
But your fighting my efforts by not even considering my good suggestions on how to downsize and streamline in other areas. Why would you want to use the big class AB Parasound A23s when you don't even like their sound with the LS50s? And not just one but two? C'mon DB, work with me.
A good solution is to try some good class D amps, discover they're a good match driving the LS50s as well as all your other speakers and, voila!, you've even further significantly downsized and streamlined. Do you have an aversion to using small, lightweight, powerful and cool running class D amps that are so efficient you can just leave them on 24/7 if you want?
Tim
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Hello dbphd, Now you're talking! Excellent choice. Here's a Stereophile very positive review of the class D NAD M22 amp I just read: www.stereophile.com/content/nad-masters-series-m22-power-amplifier There's also a NAD M27 amp that retails for $1,000 more than the M22. It uses the exact same custom Hypex NCore 400 class D modules with the same 250w/ch as the M22 but has 7 channels instead of 2. I know that's 1 more channel than you need but it would give you the option of powering a center channel if you ever wanted to use one again in the future. It would also help you downsize and steam-line since all of your required amplification would be in a single component enclosure rather than several. I think you'll really like the sound of either of these amps, the review on the M22 stated that both the M22 and M27 amps sound almost identical to the Parasound A31 3-ch amp. Great job in identifying the NAD class D amps as an excellent solution for your soon to be downsized HT system. Tim |
Hello dbphd,
Great, I was going to suggest a used unit to save money but didn't know if you wanted to buy only new or were open to buying used. Once the M22 arrives, you'll be able to hear what a good class D amp will sound like with your KEF speakers.
Are you certain your Cox cable tv broadcasts in only 2 channel? I live in Indiana and use the local Comcast/Xfinity cable tv and they broadcast in at least 5.1 channel on all their channels, possibly even 7.1. I do subscribe to their HDTV package along with HBO and Showtime, but I'm not sure if that's why I get 5.1 channel sound. You may want to check with Cox since the surround sound makes everything I watch more enjoyable, even commercials.
I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions of the M22 with your speakers.
Tim
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Hello dbphd, Here's a Cox cable site that explains how to get surround sound audio connected. It looks like you'll need to set your cable box to "Dolby Digital" and follow the instructions to feed the surround audio signal to your Oppo 205. https://www.cox.com/residential/support/audio-settings.html "I felt like an energy scofflaw running a Bryston SP3. Oppo 205, Parasound JC 2 BP, 3 JC 1 monoblocks, and 2 A 23s to watch TV, but in my zeal to downsize I may have thrown out the baby with the bath water." Hah! So, it's you causing all this global warming?, way to go. I was just going to lookup how little power the M22 consumes and I discovered there's a version 1 and a version 2 of this amp. Wonder which version you bought? You may want to research the differences to see if any you want are on the version you bought. Tim |
Hello dbphd,
Montecito? Very nice. Beautiful area!
I'm glad you bought the latest V2 model of the M22, I actually don't know the changes from V1 units but think you're most likely better off with a V2 since their performance was probably significantly improved if they caused a version update.
Your neighbors will also be very proud of your small but cumulative effort to combat global warming. Congratulations.
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
Wow! For a guy just getting into class D amplification, you have good taste, good knowledge and don't mess around.
It looks like you'll soon have everything you'll need for a high quality, stream lined 6.4 surround system that will likely all consume less electricity than one of your former JC-1 mono amps. Careful, Montecito may soon be awarding you their 'Green Homeowner of the Year Award' in a landslide vote. Ironic, the award is actually a bronzed JC-1 mono-block with an etched inscription plate.
But I'm a little confused. You listed a lineup for HT and a lineup for music, are you creating one large system for both HT and music in one room or are you going to have a different room for each? I recall you mentioning a 100" video projection setup, too.
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
Oh, great! You're soon to be another famous resident and you'll be known as 'The Green Amp Old Man of Montecito'. I can't wait.
Okay, your post clears things up for me, thanks.
Now I'm thinking about how to best configure and setup all your very good equipment for optimum performance and ease of use. I just have a couple questions:
1. Wouldn't you rather use your KEF Ref 1s for both your music main speakers and as your L+R front main speakers for HT? I know a good and safe method to do this if you'd prefer to. You'd still be able to use your KEF LS50s as side and rear surround speakers.
2. Do you have a plan on how to setup your system so you can utilize your soon to exist 4-sub distributed bass array system, either with or without one or more of your SMS-1 bass manager units, for both music and HT?
Also, I wanted to answer a question you asked before about how much heat the NAD amps give off. If they're anything like my class D amps, they won't get warmer than luke-warm.
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
1."How can you connect two amps to one speaker?"
Your Ayre VX-5 amp has XLR and RCA inputs. The Oppo205 has both outputs for the L+R stereo/ L+R front mains and your Ayre preamp has both outputs. Both can be connected and, since you're only going to send signals from one or the other at a time, the amp will just amplify whichever inputs are active-like an automatic switch. I wasn't aware you don't want to use the Ayre amp and Ref 1s for HT. No problem, you have enough amps and LS50s.
"The NAD C 328 I’m using now for TV stays cool to the touch."
Good, the NAD M22 should be the same.
I think we just need to figure out how to get a 7.1 signal from the Cox cable box to the Oppo. What outputs are on the cable box?
If it has an HDMI output, you can probably use that to get the video and audio to the Oppo ( that's what I use on my Oppo 105) and then use the HDMI output of the Oppo to connect to your projector for the video. This will allow the 205's very good video processing to be utilized, too.
I think we just need to set things properly on the Oppo and Cox cable box menus for the surround sound to work. I'm not sure yet if you'll be able to get 7.1 sound from the Cox box but it should be at least 5.1. I'll try to figure this out.
Don't forget you'll need cables for the Oppo surround ch outputs to your amps, too.
Later,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
That's good news.
Yes, an HDMI cable will be connected from the HDMI main output on the Cox cable box to the HDMI input on the 205. Another HDMI cable is connected from the HDMI OUT (Main) on the 205 to the Main HDMI Input on your projector. Then cables are connected from the 7.1 audio out jacks on the 205 to your amps, XLR or RCA for the l+r stereo/front l+r mains outputs and RCA only for the remaining channels and sub.
You'll probably need to connect all 7.1 channels to the amps and speakers to determine if the Cox cable box is sending 7.1 channel surround to the 205 or just 5.1.
Once your subs are repaired and hooked up, the last steps will be going into the 205's setup menus and making sure everything is configured properly. Things such as the proper video output resolution settings on the 205 for your projector, crossover frequency for your subs and the trim level, size and distance settings for each of the channels.
If the Cox cable is not 4K but your projector is 4K, I know the 205 can take an inputted 1080P video signal and up-sample or upconvert it to a 4K picture. Do you know if this processed 4K picture will be of sufficient resolution for your purposes?
Tim
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Hey dbphd,
Excellent! Just a few more questions if you don't mind:
1. Do you plan on running the LS50s full-range, with the amp connected direct from the Oppo-205 front l+r mains outputs or are you going to run them only from 80 Hz on up, with the amp connected to the SMS-1's restricted frequency outputs?
2. Are you going to run the remainder of all your satellite LS50 speakers full-range or restricted to 80 Hz and up?
3. Do you know when your 15" subs will be ready for pickup in L.A.?
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
Okay, thanks. I'll just monitor this thread awaiting an update from you in the next several weeks.
Later,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
Happy Independence Day!
I'm very glad you like the performance of the class D NAD M22 driving your KEF LS50s.
I appreciate good class D amps for their very low noise floor, good bass and dynamics along with the very accurate, detailed and neutral midrange/treble response that still manages to be smooth and natural without ever being bright or harsh. I've found them to be very close to the audio ideal of 'a straight wire with gain'; with nothing added, subtracted or altered from the inputted signals.
This accuracy and neutrality sounds great on good recordings and matched with high quality upstream components but it also will clearly amplify any faults in the sound caused by poor recordings and poor quality upstream components. Personally, I prefer this accuracy and neutrality but I thought you should be aware of this quality of good class D amps if you weren't already. Fortunately, you have high quality components so you'll only need to be concerned with the quality of your music recordings and other audio sources.
Well, so far so good, right? I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions once everything's completed, especially the four subs and how the bass sounds and integrates.
Later,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
Awesome! The audio section of the Oppo 205 is also very neutral and of high quality. I believe your whole chain, 205/M22/LS50s would be accurately described as exceptionally neutral. I think you'll continue to notice there's a more direct relationship between the quality of the recording and the quality of the overall sound than most systems due to the high degree of neutrality.
Enjoy,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
You're back, I missed you. I'd like to know more about roughly how much time you spend listening to music as compared to watching/listening to HT (cable tv, blu-rays, music dvds, etc.).
I believe I need to know the answers to a few questions before I can offer any useful advice. If you don't mind, here they are:
1. Percentage of total time you spend watching/listening to HT?
2. Percentage of total time listening to music?
3. Is there any way you'd be okay with using the KEF Ref.1s for music and HT?
4. Would you rather have optimum bass performance on music or HT?
5. Are you set on having two separate systems, one for music and one for HT?
6. If you want two separate systems, does this mean you're okay with moving and switching out the Ref 1s with the LS50s as the front speakers whenever you want to switch which system you want to use,music to HT and vice versa?
Thanks,
Tim
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Hello dbphd,
Okay, I think we've got your best configuration figured out for both ease of use and sound quality if you agree to go with these two setup modifications:
1. Utilize your Ayre amp for both music and HT and remove the NAD amp. Your Ayre VX-5 amp has XLR and RCA inputs. The Oppo205 has both outputs for the L+R stereo/ L+R front mains and your Ayre preamp has both outputs. Both can be connected and, since you're only going to send signals from one or the other at a time, the amp will just amplify whichever inputs are active-like an automatic switch.
You just need to decide whether you'd rather use the xlr connections on your preamp and amp for music and the rca connections on the Oppo 205 and amp for HT, or vice versa. There's no switch to flip on the Ayre amp for selecting whether you're choosing to use the xlr or rca inputs, correct?
2. Utilize the KEF Ref 1s for both music and HT and remove the LS50s from HT duty. This certainly won't reduce the sound quality for HT and very well might improve it
You just need to position the Ref 1s for optimum positioning at your listening seat for music performance and this positioning should still work well for HT listening, too.
I know you don't think you need the four subs for music playback with the Ref 1s. But I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how exceptionally well a properly positioned and configured 4-sub DBA system reproduces bass in any given room and how well the bass seamlessly integrates with any pair of main speakers used.
The bass will not only sound more impactful and dynamic but more detailed and smoother, too. You'll also notice the increased bass detail and seamless integration with your Ref 1s will provide an impressive depiction of the music venue on good recordings.
Isn't this what I was relating to you on my initial posts on this thread? If it wasn't, it should have been and I think it'd really be a shame if you missed out on what I believe is near state of the art bass performance by not even giving the DBA concept a try. You can thank me
Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks,
Tim
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Morning DB,
I want to respond to some of your recent comments and concerns on this post to consolidate the issues I believe we need to resolve so that you have a solid, thorough and clear plan for your combo music and HT system configuration in your new room that works conveniently, sounds extremely good and you approve of. I'll respond to your recently posted comments below and please let me know of any additional concerns you may have:
1. "Tim,
It occurred to me that in addition to connecting the balanced output from the Oppo to the Ayre preamp I could connect the single-ended output to the NAD M22. But then the Oppo can no longer trigger the NAD, because I don't want audio from both the Ref 1s and LS50s. That's an inconvenience but it would save energy when just watching TV -- the reason behind two setups."
I believe you're stating you'd prefer to use the NAD M22 amp when just watching TV to save energy. I've been reading a bit of your Ayre KX-5 preamp manual and it's very flexible in its configurability. I believe we could figure out a method to do this, however, I believe this would still require using two sets of front main speakers, the Ref 1s for music driven by your Ayre amp and the LS50s for HT driven by your NAD M22 amp.
If this is acceptable to you, having both the Ref1s and LS50s permanently positioned near each other at the front of your room, then I suspect we could design a good configuration that provides good sound quality and convenience for both music and HT.
If having both sets of main speakers positioned at the front of your room is not acceptable to you, then we need to figure out how to conveniently and safely use two amps on a single set of speakers, substitute the NAD M22 for the Ayre amp or think of a very innovative alternative solution that is safe, convenient and provides good sound quality on both music and HT.
2. "Switching between the Ayre and NAD amps to drive the Ref 1s is complicated, because both the Ayre and Ref 1s support pairs of lugs for biwiring whereas the NAD does not."
Yes, I think we both agree this fails to meet the goal of a convenient music and HT system configuration solution so we should probably just eliminate this as a viable solution, unless we can figure out a safe and convenient method to use two different amps on a single set of speakers.
3. "I have no aversion to using 4 subs. I just haven’t hauled the HGS-15s to LA yet. I’m 83 and the subs are too heavy for me to lift so I need to have them taken downstairs, put into the back of our MB wagon, then trek down PCH to LA."
I'm glad you have no aversion to using 4 subs for music and HT because I'm almost certain you'll consider their use very beneficial on both once properly positioned and configured.
I've been thinking about the best method of having them transported from your room to the repair facility and back again to your room. I currently consider hiring and coordinating with a local moving company to do this as your best option. It'll cost a bit more but they'll be able to remove them directly from your room and eventually directly back to your room while you're only required to supervise and sip on a glass of delicious iced tea, sun brewed and garnished with a fresh lemon wedge, as they do both. Your only exertion will be lifting your glass.
Later,
Tim
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DB, I just finished reading an Audio Beat review of the combination of your Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp and VX-5 amp linked below: www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/ayre_kx5_twenty_vx5_twenty.htm It's such an extremely good review of your equipment's sound quality that, if you can verify you perceive even half of the positive comments of its sound quality described in this review, I believe you should and would likely be very hesitant in choosing to substitute the NAD M22 for your Ayre VX-5 amp. The apparent positive and synergistic sound qualities attained through this combination of Ayre components seems unlikely to be matched by the combination of your Ayre KX-5 Twenty preamp with the NAD M22 class D amp. I've never listened to a system with this combination of Ayre components and, of course, only your opinion on this matter is relevant anyway. If you prefer utilizing the Ayre components and Ref 1s for both music and Ht due to sound quality advantages, however, I realize this eliminates the energy savings resulting from utilizing the very green class D NAD M22 amp for HT usage. Is consuming a bit more energy for the sake of improved sound quality on music and HT acceptable to you? Only you can determine whether being incessantly ridiculed and persecuted by your fellow SoCal residents for your perceived porcine-like consumption of energy, and your inevitable resulting ostracization along with all the typical egging and teepeeing of your house and property, is worth bearing for increased system performance. Please let me know if you want to eliminate the option of using your NAD M22 for powering your HT front mains. Tim |
Hello DB,
No problem. I can tell you know what you're doing, we all need a bit of assistance once in a while.
Lastly, I would just suggest you configure your system so that you can use your future 4-sub DBA system with either music or HT. It really performs exceptionally well and, besides, you always have the option to turn it off if you'd prefer.
I'll continue to monitor this thread and I hope you post occasionally to update your progress, request assistance if you have any snags or questions and describe your final impressions of how it all performs. You can also send me a pm if you prefer.
And please don't try to move those big subs on your own, just hire a local mover.
Best wishes,
Tim
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DB,
So, do you have both the Ref 1s for music and the LS50s for HT and TV permanently setup near each other at the front of your room?
Tim
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Hello DB,
Excellent. Now, please call a local mover and get those 15" subs sent to the repair facility in LA. Remember, you're just supervising, sipping a cold drink and not lifting a thing.
Thanx,
Tim
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Hello DB,
Pairs of subs is fine but keeping them balanced as left and right pairs is not important, there's no such thing as stereo bass below 100 Hz. I've previously explained this in detail on another thread, if you want to read it I can find it and send you a link.
I suggest you run all your subs in mono mode and try and to find your third HGs-10 because having a total of four subs in your DBA is important.
Later,
Tim
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Hello cleeds,
We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz but we're very good at localizing higher frequency soundwaves in the remainder of the audible spectrum, from about 100 to 20,000 Hz.
This is the reason there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl and cd recordings. If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd recording that is not summed to mono. This means it's pointless to configure subs in a stereo configuration with one located by the left main speaker and one by the right.
However, thanks to psychoacoustics and our remarkable brains, it is possible to create the perception of stereo bass in our systems. Here's how it works:
Whether you use 2, 3 or 4 subs, run them in mono and optimize the bass at your listening seat. The bass below 100 Hz won't be able to be localized but there are bass harmonics or overtones of the deep bass fundamental frequency that extend into higher frequencies that are reproduced by the main stereo speakers and can be localized. Our brains are able to associate the fundamental deep bass frequency reproduced by the subs, that are not able to be localized, with the deep bass's higher harmonic frequencies, that extend well beyond 100 Hz, which are reproduced by the main speakers that are able to be localized. This psychoacoustic association allows us to localize the deep bass in the soundstage, for example the kick drum is located in the rear center and the upright bass is located in the front to the left, which would not be otherwise possible without this psychoacoustic association our brain's are capable of.
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cleeds: " noble100 We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that
is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 100 Hz . This is mistaken, and with the right system can easily be demonstrated. there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass and
why the bass is summed to mono on frequencies below 100 Hz on all vinyl
and cd recordings. Bass below 100hZ is not summed to mono on all recordings. Not even close. And when it is summed for LP pressings, it's not because "
there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass." If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd
recording that is not summed to mono. Done." cleeds, Done? What have you done? I can tell you what you haven't done: 1. You've failed to provide any evidence supporting your claim that humans are able to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves, that is determine where the sound is coming from, that are below about 80-100 Hz. Your claim is in direct conflict with the scientific research results on this exact topic. Here's a link to one of many examples: https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_basslocalization.php2. You failed to reference or list any information supporting your claim that, with the right system, it can easily be demonstrated that bass below about 80-100 Hz can be localized. 3. You failed to provide any evidence to support your claim that "Bass below 100hZ is not summed to mono on all recordings. Not even close. And when it is summed for LP pressings, it's not because "
there's no such thing as 'true stereo' deep bass." 4. You failed to name a single vinyl or cd recording that does not have the bass summed to mono below about 80-100 Hz. However, that didn't prevent you from claiming you did on your previous post, here's a quote from your previous post listing a quote from me on a previous post directed to you followed by your odd reply : "noble100:If you doubt this, try to find a single vinyl or cd
recording that is not summed to mono. Done." Actually, I fail to see any purpose in your last post on this thread. If it was meant as a rebuttal to my previous post, it's a very poor rebuttal. Apparently, you're still not able to name a single vinyl or cd recording that does not have the bass summed to mono below about 80-100 Hz, I'm only asking for a single example, any example. If you can't, it definitely makes your claim that true stereo deep bass exists completely meaningless. Even if your false claim was true and your system could playback true stereo deep bass, you'd have no true stereo deep bass recordings to play on your system and, therefore, true stereo bass, for all practical purposes, would not exist for you or anyone else whose system was also capable of playback of stereo deep bass. Based on the above facts, I suggest it makes no sense to create one's audio system, or advise anyone else to create an audio system, that includes subs positioned and configured for stereo deep bass playback. It makes much more sense to position and configure any subs in one's system for mono deep bass playback so that playback of existing recordings, that contain exclusively summed mono bass below about 80-100 Hz, are also optimized for mono deep bass performance. Tim |
Hello cleeds,
Okay, I just reread your previous post and you’re not making any sense. I don’t know exactly what’s wrong with you but you’re not actually giving examples or explanations that you think you’ve given.
For example, you stated:
"You failed to read what I wrote. I cited a specific mechanism that’s been shown to allow localizing low bass frequencies. Please read more carefully."
You blame me for not reading carefully, I reread your previous post thinking I may have missed something and discover there’s absolutely no mention at all of "a specific mechanism that’s been shown to allow localizing low bass frequencies". It’s as if you suffered a stroke and don’t yet realize your diminished cognitive and communication abilities or you’re under the influence of some substance. Meanwhile, I still have no idea exactly what this magic mechanism is. Do you?
There are numerous other examples from your last two posts like this. You stated: "I need to show only one exception to your claim ("We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves ... that are below about 100 Hz") to show that you’re mistaken."
This is not actually a valid claim but you compound the nonsense by not even giving a single example or exception to the fact we are unable to localize deep bass soundwaves that are below about 80-100 Hz.
Your big point from your last post, and the only one that makes a modicum of sense is when you stated:
"According to your reference, "... as the frequency drops below a critical frequency - usually around 80 Hz - it becomes very difficult to determine a sound’s location." That doesn’t seem to support your claim that "We all are unable to localize deep bass frequency soundwaves ... below about 100 Hz ." Please read more carefully."
Wow, great point! I did make a mistake in my earlier post by forgetting that some early research results by experts stated we can’t localize deep bass tones below 100 Hz, while more recent research results usually states 80 Hz or an approximate range of 80-100 Hz due to more specific recent experimental data results.
My last example of your lack of focus and direct cogent rebuttals is your continued lack of response to my request that you name a single vinyl or cd recording example that does not have all the bass below about 80-100 Hz summed to mono. FYI, I know you'll be unable to find a single example in any recording format.
I don’t believe it’s worth the continued frustration of debating with you on this subject if you’re unable to identify even a single vinyl or cd recording containing stereo deep bass. The whole debate becomes moot and we should both just continue using systems we deem best suited to the existing music recordings available.
You’ll save a boatload of wasted time searching for something that doesn’t exist if you’re able to accept the reality of all current recorded music on vinyl, cd and high resolution digital audio files lacking stereo deep bass.
Until you find one,
Tim
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cleeds:
"There is very much such a thing as stereo bass. Because I have it, there’s no need for me to search for it. Have a nice day!"
Hello cleeds,
Let me get this straight. You have a system that's capable of playback of music in stereo sound on deep bass and you're still unable to name a single example of recorded music on any format that contains stereo deep bass below about 80-100 Hz ?
Forget about the search! All you need to do now to prove your claim that stereo deep bass actually exists is to name a single example of recorded music on any format that you have ever played back on your stereo bass system.
Easy right? I mean you'd have to be playing back something recorded with actual stereo deep bass to actually get stereo deep bass reproduced in your room, right? You obviously wouldn't be stupid enough to have a system capable of reproducing deep stereo bass without having any recordings containing deep stereo bass, right? You'd have to be an idiot to do that.
Since we both know you can't and won't name a single recording you play on your deluxe stereo bass system because none exist, there's no avoiding the conclusion that there's no such thing as stereo deep bass below 80-100 Hz. I could swear that's what I stated at the start of this waste of time debate? Case closed.
Nice try,
Tim
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Hello clearthink,
I hope your user name is indicative of your actual cognitive functioning and you'll be able to communicate more effectively than cleeds.
Unfortunately, I believe we've gotten off to a poor start based on your first two posts addressed to myself. You mention Tru-Fi as if it's commonly known in your last post. I had no idea of what Tru-Fi refers to so I googled it. My search resulted in a company named Tru-Fi that apparently makes various electric guitar pedals with model names such as Zosa Fuzz, Suppa Fuzz and Colordriver.
I'm fairly sure you're not referring to these, so I'm requesting you clarify exactly what you're referring to or just provide a link to a site that explains things.
Thanx,
Tim
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Hello DB,
I thought you were going to take the Bryston SP-3 out of your system and use the Oppo 205 for surround sound decoding instead, connect the l+r stereo/l+r front surround outputs from the Oppo 205 to the KX-5, connect the SMS-1 to the KX-5 and the surround channel outputs on the Oppo 205 connected directly to the NAD surround amps.
Tim
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Hello DB,
I've recently read a few of those rave reviews on the Bryston SP-3 and there's no doubt it's a high quality unit. But the Oppo 105 and 205 are also high quality units and I thought one of your main goals was streamlining and simplifying your system. I think you need to directly compare the sound quality of using the SP-3 to using the Oppo 205 on tv and movies surround sound. You have a lot of high quality stuff.
I also believe you need to directly compare the video and audio quality of your Ayre DX-5 DSD to your Oppo 205. I've read that Ayre doesn't just rebadge Oppo players as Ayre players but instead claims they 'reengineer' the Oppo players. For some unknown reason, they also remove the quasi processor circuitry and 7.1 rca outputs for the surround channels. I realize the Ayre DX-5 DSD sold new at retail for about $10K but you still need to verify it outperforms the Oppo, especially considering it lacks the Oppo's quasi processor circuitry and 7.1 channel outputs.
If you're unable to notice clear differences in the performance advantages of either the SP-3 or Ayre DX-5 when compared to the Oppo 205, then there's no reason to use them and sacrifice the streamlining and simplification advantages of removing them from your system. Selling them both on the used market would likely provide more than enough funds to cover all of your sub repair costs or the cost of new subs.
Your Velodyne HSG-15 and HSG-10 subs are examples of more good stuff you have. My first instinct is to just have all your subs repaired but the most reasonable thing to do is to get specific estimates or at least an estimate range of minimum to maximum repair costs. Only then can you make a rational choice about whether it's best to get them repaired or buy new subs.
It seems like a shame to me to not get them repaired since they probably still have some value and are very good subs. If the repair costs seem reasonable to you, having them repaired would be a good option since you like their performance, they'd work very well in a DBA format in combination with your SMS-1 sub control unit and they'd retain considerably more of their value in top working condition as opposed to broken.
On the other hand, even if you consider the total repair costs excessive, I was thinking the repair facility might be willing to buy them all from you at a reasonable price. I would suggest a good option would be to then devote these funds toward the purchase of 3-4 new subs. If you choose to do this you'll have a wide assortment of options in a wide range of quality levels,such as a custom DBA consisting of three or four subs of the size, price and quality level you prefer (just make sure these custom DBA subs have a minimum of volume control, crossover frequency selector and a continuously variable 360 degree phase control)or even a complete 4-sub Swarm DBA system.
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Hello DB,
Okay, so are you going to use a combined single system for music and HT or two separate systems?
Tm
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dbphd:
"Tim, would using 3 subs instead of 4 violate a distribution principle? A single SMS-1 supports 3 equalized outputs, but you need to daisy chain to another SMS-1 for additional outputs. I have 2 SMS-1s, and they are thin enough to stack nicely if daisy-chaining is required. In the past, I've used on SMS-1 for the pair of HGS-15s, the other for the HGS-10s, but the that been in separate rooms. Since I have only two functioning subs right now daisy-chaining hasn't been an issue -- the HGS-15 only functions when I switch it to on rather than its audio-detect mode."
Hello DB,
Some DBA knowledgeable people I trust claim 3 subs can work almost as well as 4 in some rooms. I've only utilized bass systems with 1, 2 and 4 subs and have no experience using 3 subs in any room.
Your room is fairly large and I tend to believe 4 subs is a better option since there'd be less likelihood of a lack of overall bass output volume
levels and sufficient reserve power for realistic bass dynamics. I'd suggest using both HGS-15s and both HGS-10s.
However, since I've never tried a 3 sub DBA, I can't be certain it wouldn't work well for you. Perhaps you can try both and just use whichever you prefer?
Later,
Tim
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dbphd:
"Tim,
Currently thinking of a solution to a problem that entails using one SMS-1 with the HGS-15s for HT and the other SMS-1 with the HGS-10s for music. That is, Bryston SP3 to a SMS-1 for HT, Ayre KX-5/20 to the other for music, with no sharing. That would be counter to the array concept, but would simplify setup. I may have enough HGS-10s that with the Optima 12, I could muster 3 & 3. Of course, that’s after the two HGS-15s and HGS-10 are returned from repair.
db"
Hello DB,
I believe I have a bias toward using a single shared system for the playback of music, TV and HT that consists of utilizing the exceptional benefits of a complete 4-sub DBA system on all three. FYI, I usually just include TV watching as part of HT because I use the same 5.4 surround system for both and for simplicity’s sake.
I think I’ve developed this bias due to the mental and physical experimenting efforts I invested into its creation as a personal system solution and the fact that it works so well for me. My current combination music and HT system requires no switching of wires or even the pushing of remote buttons, all switching between uses occurs automatically with my source selection chosen by just inserting a Blu-ray disc in my Oppo 105 or just selecting a channel on my Xfinity cable TV remote. The only exception is 2-channel stereo music listening that requires turning on my NAS hard drive and selecting a music track or album to playback on my laptop. The music begins playing automatically but, when done and I want to watch TV/ HT for example, I do need to select the HDMI input on the Oppo remote to switch the input source.
However, I now better understand that taking advantage of the amazing capabilities and versatility of the Oppo player is the key enabling this seamless system integration and ease of use. I’ve learned through the experiences of attempting to help others to achieve this same level of seamless integration and ease of use, it requires they also need to utilize an Oppo 105, 105D or 205 player as a limited input preamp, CD and movie disc player as well as the player in a hi-res digital music file system. If they prefer to use a specific separate preamp for music, as I originally did, it makes things a lot more difficult and requires additional switching and compromises or a lot more noodling on a solution.
Unfortunately, I believe seamless integration of a music and a HT system into a well functioning single shared combination system requires the use of a top model Oppo player, or similar player, and the only alternative solutions I’m aware of require a good amount of switching or two separate systems or a bigger noodle than I possess.
Later,
Tim
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Hello DB,
By the way, do you want me to call you DB or do you prefer something else?
Okay, I think I've got it.
You're going to use the Ayre CD player, Roon, Ayre KX5 preamp, VX5 amp and the KEF Ref 1s for music playback.
You're going to use the Ayre preamp, amp and Ref1s doing double duty for TV and HT playback along with the Oppo 205 for video disc playback (connected via HDMI to the SP3) and the Bryston SP3 for 7.1 surround sound with the NAD amps and KEF LS50s attached to the SP3 for side and rear surround channels.
The two SMS-1s, along with the four subs connected, will be attached to the Ayre preamp. You'll be able to select through the Ayre preamp whether the Ref 1s play the l+r stereo channels for music or the l+r front channels for TV and HT.
Does this sound right? If so, I think it's a good plan.
I'm not familiar with the AudioEngine 2+ for TV audio but I'm going to research it later tonight.
Later,
Tim
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Hello DB,
Excellent! I'm glad we arrived at a system solution you like.
I'm anxious to find out your impressions of your 4-sub DBA system on music and HT once you have all your subs back from repair and setup.
If you need help with that portion, just send me a personal message or post on this thread, I'll continue to monitor this thread until I read of your impressions on your soon to exist custom DBA system.
Enjoy,
Tim
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Hello DB,
Excellent! Not just success but finely refined success. Good job.
Now, to lock up your winning the 'Montecito Green Man of the Year Award' , you just need to share your energy efficient TV watching method with your town neighbors.
My wife and I will try to make it out there for the award ceremony.
Later,
Tim
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Hello DB,
Yes, I know anything from Ayre is going to sound very good.
I've never used a Velodyne sub but, from the reviews I've read and your comments, I think they'll perform very well in your custom 4-sub DBA. Positioning and precisely adjusting the volumes, crossover frequencies and phases will probably be the difference between optimum bass performance in your room and something less which, however, will still likely sound very good.
When do you expect them back? Are you all set on how to best position and configure them?
Tim
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