Ray Charles - "Rap is not music"

The argument ought not to be whether or not it is music, but whether or not it is art, which it most certainly is, and a highly marketable art form at that, having gained and maintained a place of prominence in entertainment media for some 45 years.

Ok folks -

We are 75 posts deep on this discussion.

Has the discussion moved the greater understanding forward at all?  Anyone's underlying beliefs shift at all?

That's what I thought.  Let's just put it down and go back to rolling tubes and swapping out cartridges and putting cables on risers, stuff we all agree on.  Kindly use the rubber bullets when you take aim.  😉

Happy Saturday,

Rich 

@simao

 It seems like you have  real problem with anyone who doesn't agree with YOUR opinion. Trying to put down someone for the number of posts they made?Give me a break! You obviously have posted alot. I don't think that makes you an "authority" on anything. You are just very "opinionated".  Now, you have thrown out the "race card" because someone doesn't agree with you. 

So, just to be clear, the question was "Do you agree or disagree with Ray Charles comment about Rap not being considered " music".

As someone who learned to play the piano at age 5, drums at age 10, played in the band, orchestra, marching band etc.and a couple of garage bands in the 60's early seventies, I learned to play instruments, read music, harmonize vocals, and keep a steady beat. Now, if you look up the definition of " musician" you will find that entails being able to have some degree of mastery of an instrument.

I admire a great number of musicians,  who have a great deal of musicianship, vocal range, etc. And, FYI many just happen to be black.

With that being said, I don't see that it takes alot of "musicianship" or "vocal range" to be a "rap singer".  Only the ability to rhyme (not necessarily poetically), and keep a beat.  The fact that women are more than referred to in degrading terms ( " ho" *itches") does little to endear my ears to that ilk.

HOWEVER, if you, or others deem that music, be my guest.

You are welcome to listen to whatever you like.

BTW, because Ray Charles didn't consider rap music, are you calling him a racist?

@simao @tylermunns  - I am going to let the subject go because both of you are woefully ignorant and obviously have no real exposure to Rap music and the very real culture it produced.  Or, you're some sort of woke troll looking for any opportunity to engage your online, recreational outrage.

But for the record, I am a BLACK man who has seen first hand how this "music" has perpetuated a deleterious impact on the minds and communities of those who're projecting the violent, mindlessly-materialistic, anti-social, drug-glorifying, misogynistic and depictions of murder message this "music" conveys.  This is, unfortunately, undeniable.  Have you heard of Drill or Trap (RAP) music?  I know you haven't so Google it because this is what most are actually hearing.  Its influence in social media is remarkable.

Now head over to YouTube and search the following:  "Former record exec exposes the rap industry"  and "Charleton White: YouTube promotes black rappers killing each other but shut me down" (start at the 2:15 minute mark).  And while there, see what KRS-One says about commercialized rap & hip hop -- how the positive message of the people had to go underground, while the music industry pushed violence & gang culture.  Please learn how NWA (Niggaz Wit Attitudes) gangster rap was industry backed to push the positive, political message of Public Enemy into the background.  There was no interest in empowering the people, especially during a time when the U.S. government (CIA) & Nicaraguan Contras where flooding the inner cities with crack cocaine.  No. Public Enemy's Fight the Power, would not suffice.

Here's an interesting excerpt from Sociological Forum, Vol. 24. No. 3. September 2009 Narratives in Popular Culture: Depictions of Homicide in Rap Music
by Gwen Hunnicutt and Kristy Humble Andrews

"Homicide is a rare event, but depictions of it are quite common in our culture and discourse. Commercially successful rappers have appropriated homicide as a central theme in their lyrical compositions. The tremendous success of rap music is indicative of its increasing popular appeal and cultural impact. We reveal the ways homicide is constructed within rap music and its frequency of occurrence across time. Employing a cultural criminology framework, we analyze the most popular rap songs over the period 1989-2000, as determined by Billboard music charts, for references to homicide. Using content analysis we explore the emergent themes associated with homicide scenarios in rap lyrics. Results show violent death was constructed in glorified ways, incorporated cautionary tales, or used as an analogy for powerful rhyming. The major themes found in these homicide-related rap lyrics were the normalization of killing, respect maintenance, confrontation with the power structure, vengeance, and masculine confrontation. Gender patterns of killing were surprising and distinct. Homicide was almost always male on male. Careful consideration is given to the multiple meanings of homicide, particularly the ways rappers have appropriated the word "killing" and transformed it into a term that indicates creative success."

@hilde45 - Racism?  Seriously?

@shutupuface Nah, I don’t have a problem with differing opinions at all, as long as they’re actually based on intelligent thought rather than generalized dismissals of a music form that doesn’t conform to a predisposed definition. I throw out the "race card" - as you predictably put - because that’s what it is. Look at the thread about country music. How many references to a specific culture or group can you find there? None. Shocker.

"With that being said, I don’t see that it takes alot of "musicianship" or "vocal range" to be a "rap singer". Only the ability to rhyme (not necessarily poetically), and keep a beat. The fact that women are more than referred to in degrading terms ( " ho" *itches") does little to endear my ears to that ilk."

• Try to rap like Chuck D or Dre or Lil Uzi. See if you have to breath control, rhythmic mastery, and ability to control your intonation and elocution to the extent they can.
• Much music made by men degrades or objectifies women, including the Boomer rock you grew up with.
• Your musical resume doesn’t exactly pad your point much.

@ab2ab Thank you for a thought-out rebuttal. I would have posted my original reply whether I would have known your color or not. I mean, racism knows no color boundaries. And yes, I would love to talk with you about drill (which, like trap, is a rap genre I simply don’t find pleasing to listen to. It’s that constant hi-hat which grates on me), its Brooklyn and Chicago bases, and the complex cultural-musical-sonic interplay that gave rise to the genre.

However, as a middle-aged suburban white male, I’m not going to pretend to "understand" where those artists are coming from - the "real culture" as you say. However, I will try to appreciate what they do, whether its King Keef or Lil Durk, rather than post sophomoric crap that permeates this thread.

Truthfully, I prefer artists like Autumn! and other southern rappers more than a Chicago sound.

FWIW, Ice-T recently castigated contemporary rappers as "weak" and "soft". I mean, this is ICE-T saying this! But I still disagree with him. It seems another example of an older guy railing against a new way of doing things, another example of @musicfan2349 's cool thread about finding it harder to like new music the older you get.