Dear Elinor: +++++ " Let us not forget that the choice of microphone at the recording session will color the recording not to mention the placement of the mics and the room in which the recording was made " +++++
this subject is of paramount importance and if we own an accurate system/room at home then we can hear all that.
IMHO I think that we and the reviewers ( specially these one. ) have to understand that what we heard/hear when we attend to a Concert Hall or a Jazz Club or any live music event is different of what is in the recording, many of us want that our systems sound like what we heard on a concert and this means that some of us like some kind of " colorations, let me explain:
when we attend to a live event we are not the only listeners in that place/room almost always is full of people and normally we have a seat that is 15-30 meters from the main stage ( in classical music concerts ) and not always at the center seat position of that main stage, what we are hearing has to be not only with that distance but with the surrounded people around us that affect the sound that comes in our ears and many other subjects ( this is only an example of the recording differences against what we hear/heard in a live event. ), what happen in a recording? in almost all recordings the Hall is empty and the Micro(s) are nearest ( a lot nearest ) to the whole instruments that we are and I have to say that that Micro(s) have an accurate frequency response that are a lot wider that our ears frequency response/perception, all these facts and many others on the recording process tell us that what is on the recording is different to our live perception, now if this is true why almost all of us ( including reviewers ) want to hear/heard our system home in the way we hear/heard at the Concert Hall?, IMHO two different things to evaluate, yes I know that only the people that were at the recording session can/could know how that recording sound and that's why is so important to attend to live events at different seat position and to try to hear ( if possible ) in your home " sounds " from single instrument like: piano, violin, guitar, horn, etc, etc.
Where want I to " go " with all these " words " ?: that almost all of us are hearing " colored " sound reproduction at home, only a few care about what really mean " truer to the recording ", many people likes the " warmer/lush " sound of the live music but my friends that " warmer/lush " sound it is not ( well some times is ) in the recording it is only what we like or what we heard in almost different condition that the recording conditions. Well I think that all this does not help to much on this thread but you Elinor touch it and it is important ( IMHO ) to have opinions ( different ones ) on the subject.
Other things ( IMHO ) that some of us ( including reviewers ) does not have very clear is that if in any decent TT you hear ( like Elinor experience with the Raven ) different tonearms with different or the same cartridge you will hear different kind of sound: different tonality, different accuracy level, different soundstage, different...,different many subjects.
If we believe these facts then why the reviewers ( any ) or us like s to make TT shoot-out between different TT(s) that each one comes with different tonearm/cartridge combination?, it does not make sense, at least to me.
So, that JV Colored v Accurate ( in the way that the review was made ) really means nothing other than JV likes for the better that cartridge performance with the Walker tonearm.
I think that are many ways to make that kind of shoot-out but maybe the only way ( at least the fair way ) is to make that comparison using the same tonearm/cartridge/arm board combination on both ( any ) TTs, this could be make using stand alone arm boards like the Kuzma one.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Jlvalin: Thank you to join us, it is not an easy task for a revewer to " expose " in an audio forum.
+++++ " any TAS reviewer, faces is how closely any piece of equipment under test approximates the sound of the real thing " +++++
many of us ( including reviewers ) have our own perception/definition of the " real thing " and maybe my question could " see " like something obvious but not for me: could you tell/explain us what the " real thing " mean for you?, thank you in advance.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Stiltskin: +++++ " Maybe I'm wrong ,would not the phonostage be a defining component over the table, arm and cartridge? " +++++
IMHO I can say: absolutely!, I agree with you. Many people don't put in the right place the Phonolinepreamp link in the analog chain, it is not an easy subject and I know for sure that several people have several different opinions than you and me but like Dgad alredy posted you can read something about in the next link:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1195322402&read&3&4&&st50
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Albert: Do you want a better quality performance on your SP-10MK2?, if so then change all the internal/external electrical power cable from the wall socket through the Power supply, umbilical cord and inside the TT.
I already do it and it " works " great!!!!!!!!!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " Don't you imagine that before putting into production his ' masterpiece', he has tried everything to see if any improvements can be wrought in the prototype? " +++++
IMHO, I think that is almost impossible to try " everything " in a TT design specially something like the vacuum hold down system that it is not easy to execute ( plug and play ). I always stated that almost all the TT out there are " incomplete " products and one of the reason is that the designers/builders can't try/test " everything " and that's why we customers/users always we are " tweaking " in different ways ( platforms, clamps, power cords, Vacuum systems, footers, mats, etc, etc ) our TTs, Halcro there is no perfect TT ( not yet ).
+++++ " The only caveat I would have to this is..........once you accept the designer's choices, I find it hard to understand the fact that you think you can improve upon his design? " +++++
it is exactly what we do: looking how to improve the quality sound reproduction of our regular/line TT, the Vacuum hold down AT platter mat is a way to do that.
Now, you don't have to trust in what Emailists or I already told you about, just try it and decide: your call!
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: Please don't tell me that you can/could choose/deprive not to make a " tweak " where exist real evidence to achieve a high quality performance improvement only because maybe that ( from your point of view ) " tweak " could be a " fundamental revision " ???!!!!!!!
I respect your opinion but it is very hard to agree with it, at least on the subject on this audio thread.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Darren: If the name of the game was/is effective tonearm mass everything will be very easy/simple, unfortunatelly it is not.
Take a look to the three/four tonearms that you name it, really different between each other: different build material and resonance due to material kind, different bearing design and bearing material, different lenght, different internal wiring, different effective mass, different , different, different, you know the only tonearm coincidence between them is its raw name: tonearm, that's all.
What you hear on those cartridge/tonearm combinations is not the match between the tonearm effective mass and the cartridge compliance but the whole package that it is extremely complex for say the least.
I own/owned/heard all those tonearms and cartridges several times in different combinations so I know of what I'm talking about. I have heavy XV-1 sound performance cartridge experience in my system and in other systems and you are almost the only person that is not totally satisfied with it, maybe because your ears are different, maybe because your music sound priorities are different or maybe because you have a " trouble " else where in your system: who knows.
Any way, all those posts about tell us the critical importance of the tonearm in the quality cartridge performance and IMHO this is learning for all of us.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Darren: +++++ " but in terms of tonearm / cartridge matching you are willing to ignore this. " +++++
no, I did not and I agree with you about the importance of resonance frequency between tonearm/cartridge, maybe I express oneself in the wrong way, this is what I posted about:
+++++ " What you hear on those cartridge/tonearm combinations is not the match between the tonearm effective mass and the cartridge compliance but the whole package that it is extremely complex for say the least. " +++++
the " whole package " where certainly ( no doubt about ) form very important part the tonearm/cartridge match on its resonance frequency. I'm sorry for not be so clear about.
Rgerads and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear piedpiper: I agree with you and I agree too that it is " a more complex question ".
regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Dear Darren: +++++ " Valin's favorite cartridge on the Walker is the PC-1, then he should find his favorite cartridge for the Phantom and do a sytem shootout in totality. Honestly, even the phono stage would come into play in certain situations depending on the gain & impedance ofthe cartridge in play. " +++++
You are totally right, it is unfair to make judgements where you don't even both items ( whole ) during a comparison.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Elinor: +++++ " with regard to increased performance level by virtue of 3 motors instead of one. " +++++
I really can't say if will be an improvement or not, could be. My little doubt is because three motors represent three vibration/distortion sources against only one with one motor, of course that like always we have to choose the best trade-offs.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Phaser: You, Albert an Plato almost give almost every answer about, there is/are almost nothing to add and all of you already open very wide and interesting/critical " windows " on the home reproduction sound.
There is one subject that IMHO we have to take seriously when we read a professional review like this JV one and that subject is/are how JV is biased to the music sound reproduction and biased to one single audio item ( in this case the TT. ):
JV owns the Walker one for many years and he is extremely happy with it ( like Albert and all Walker's owners. ), if we can remember when TAS made the shoot-out Walker/Kuzma Mr. Valin almost all over the review likes Kuzma the most but at the very end he changes and goes for the Walker, in this Raven/Walker he preffers too the Walker, well he has a tattoo's Walker on his body ( and nothing wrong with that it is a subjective point of view with a great audio item. ) and make me feel that JV is totally Walker's equalized ( well he heard/hear Walker almost every single day, like any one of us hear what we have: we in some ways are equalized for what we own. ) and it is almost impossible to him to made/make fair reviews for other TT's: the Walker always be ( for him ) the best one some way or the other.
Now, I almost always support the tonearm/cartridge importance over the TT's one ( with almost any decent TT ). Here we have two top TT's designs that are totally different between each other not only the TT design it self but more important the tonearm/cartridge/cable stage where through it JV made the review.
Like you already posted and know things can/could be different if you change the tonearm in the Walker ( that you can't do it ) for the Phantom and the same for the Raven.
What I wonder is what means for JV: accuracy/accurate, because IMHO here it is his biased subjective review conclusion.
Till today I always support accuracy over colored/coloration ( any kind ), I'm for the " truer to the recording " and IMHO to be near/nearest " truer to the recording " we need " accuracy ", total accuracy ( and please don't confuse accuracy with analytical, both terms are totally different. ), like it or not. Of course that to some of us we preffer a more colored/euphony sound and for other of us we preffer " what is on the recording ".
+++++ " So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded " +++++
I think in the same way, what JV think about? what every one of us think about?
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: IMHO I think that you point out ( other than the Raven high quality TT ) some very interesting subjects.
One of them is the high tonearm importance in the analog audio chain and I agree with you about.
For some time and due to my self several experiences I'm supporting the critical link tonearm/cartridge over the TT link, my words were something like this: " with any decent TT the differences ( quality performance ) were made by the right tonearm/cartridge combination ".
Reading between " lines " in your review you really like the " colored " Davinci tonearm over the Cooperhead ( at least is " addictive " ) that for what you posted is an almost non-colored ( non-distortion ) tonearm and this fact is what make the whole differences and that's why you prefer the Cooperhead on piano.
I respect that you prefer the Davinci in other kind of recordings but IMHO if a tonearm/cartridge combination do things in good way ( like the cooperhead ) with piano recordings then it must ( I can't understand why it did not ) do things well too with any kind of music, of course that maybe the Davinci colorations likes more to you that the almost non-colored Cooperhead.
This Cooperhead fact ( low distortion/coloration ) brings to my mind what I'm just experienced ( right now )with my first ( own design: Guillermo and I ) tonearm prototype that let me heard/hear recordings ( that I think were very bad ones ) for the first time and this is possible only because the very low distortion/coloration tonearm design!!!!!, I have to add that this happen too with my Phonolinepreamp: as a fact any of you could have this quality performance experience when you change a link in your audio chain for a better ( lower distortion/coloration/noises ) link quality performance design.
Halcro, IMHO I think that not only the low output MC cartridges could make the " job ". Now, that you already have the right " tools " maybe you could compare those LO MC cartridges against some MM ones like this one:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1212337930
or a Nagaoka MP-50 or Grace Ruby that you could buy right now for a few low dollars, try it don't miss the opportunity to know a " different " lovely audio/music experience, I'm sure you will be very happy to put some very low money where it counts.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear friends: This was part of what I posted in this tread ( in my first post: page 1. ):
+++++ " Now, I almost always support the tonearm/cartridge importance over the TT's one ( with almost any decent TT ). Here we have two top TT's designs that are totally different between each other not only the TT design it self but more important the tonearm/cartridge/cable stage where through it JV made the review.
Like you already posted and know things can/could be different if you change the tonearm in the Walker ( that you can't do it ) for the Phantom and the same for the Raven. " +++++
IMHO till you heard/hear two different TT's with the same tonearm/cartridge it is almost impossible to say which is a better TT ( any ). I heard the Walker in four different systems and I like it but I can't say " it is the better " because I heard too some other TTs in different systems ( including mine ) that are very good too.
The JV reviews ( or other comparisons. ) trying to compare the Walker against any other TT with a different tonearm is useless for say the least.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Emailist: Two days ago I posted on Halcro's review and ( between other things ) give to him my advice to add the AT 666 to his Raven.
Like you say I'm ( till today ) convince that a vacuum hold down record is a must to have in any decent analog chain.
Yes, the improvement on the bass ( low bass/mid bass: tight, clean, pitch, no overhang, less coloration, etc, etc ) is really shocked and to believe we have to hear it, but the improvement is not only on the bass ( but only this fact is worth the effort to find the AT666 ) but at the other frequency extreme where we have more precise/definition on the high frequencies with a pristine presentation and ovbiously that in the midrange we find a quality improvement too. When the whole audio frequency spectrum " suffer " a quality improvement we have many other benefits in other reproduction areas: soundstage, focus, inner detail, less distortion, less coloration, etc, etc.
I know that many people are against these kind of Vacuum systems ( Walker, Halcro, Alvin/Monaco, etc, etc ) but I know too that many other audio/music lovers are in favor of it, if not ask to a Sota or Basis TT owners ( for name some ) that are very satisfied with the Vacuum hold down system.
I put in this way: ones you hear/heard it you can't live with out it!!!.
Of course that this is only an opinion and like every opinion a subjective one.
Trade offs??, of course there is nothing perfect ( yet ) out there: we have to be ( a must ) very carefully to clean perfectly the AT vacuum mat and the records side ( time consuming )that goes directly on the AT mat every time we play any record/LP, if not the dust ( small and invisible ones ) pass to form part of the recording ( stick ) and ( over the time ) your records could convert a little noisy.
If any one can live with it then the AT 666 add-on is worth the effort, you will enjoy it for ever.
Btw, Emailist IMHO you have to leave the underside of the AT666 like it is ( I already try something like you posted and does not works in good way ):
+++++ " The AT666 exhibits no kind of ringing when tapping it once it is placed on the platter. " +++++
this means its working right on target!.
recondition??, I own at least four of these AT666 ( old ones ) and what I do to " recondition " the rubber seals is only to clean/wash with water ( tap water ) and soft soap, then dry with a cotton clothe and finally I use a stick tape ( scotch ) over the out and inside rubber rings to take out any small dust, it works.
Emailist very good " move " with your AT666!, enjoy .
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: First than all I don't think that I'm changing the designer products ( as a fact I accept it. Who am I for not do it?. No I have a lot of respect to any audio designer. ) because adding a platter mat IMHO is a simple add-on that if I don't like it well I take out: the same for a clamp or TT footers, etc.
You are right I don't change any mods on cartridges, as a fact when I send any of my cartridges to repair I always " work/ask hard " for that repair leave the cartridge in original state.
No, I don't make any mods to tonearms I accept it. But many people makes: internal rewiring, IC cable, etc, etc and if we take electronics everyone change the power cord ( at least ) and put its amps over dedicated platforms, etc, etc.. IMHO I don't think that all this people are not accepting the product as it is.
The subject with TTs is that permit/allow to any one to make some very simple tweaks that does not change in anyway its main design with the hope that those mods/tweaks could improve the quality performance.
+++++ " What I'm never willing to blindly accept, is that those ' differences' ........are in fact IMPROVEMENTS. " +++++
I totally agree with you, I always support that when we make a change ( any one ) in the audio system chain the differences that makes that change are ( in some cases ) that: only a different performance but not always an improvement. Usually I only report/share audio experiences mods when IMHO appear an improvement not only a difference.
I think that we have a little different s point of view but at the end we agree on the main subjects that it is where it counts.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Halcro: +++++ " But if you really wanted a vacuum hold-down table?.....why not simply buy one in the first place? " +++++
there are many reasons why we don't do it:
1- Maybe the ones out there does not like me or are out of my budget.
2- Maybe when I buy my TT ( with out it ) I never suppose that the Vacuum hold down exist.
3- Maybe knowing about the vacuum subject the TT that I buy ( with out it ) had a bargain/offer that I can't refuse and latter I add the vacuum tweak
4- Maybe knowing about the vacuum subject I decide to buy a TT ( with out it ) because that one ( like the Raven ) was the one that meets my TT's dream, latter I add the vacuum plattermat.
5- etc, etc, etc
+++++ " I don't consider these changes to be 'tweeks'.........they are fundamental revisions to the designer's philosophy .... " +++++
IMHO what for you are fundamental revisions for other people are not. This is the kind of world where we live: diversity!.
You can accept it or not but such is life.
Halcro, there are many people that buy a Ferrari or a Porche and change the original tyres for a different model: do you think that those people are making a fundamental car design revision?
There are no perfect products ( any kind ) out there and there are some/many people that have a high common sense. Halcro the life is a set of continuos changes and the audio items are not an exception.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Nilthepill: IMHO the best ( perfect ) that we can/could have at home is to hear what is on the recording that is way far away from the live event from where comes that recording.
So, today trying to have in our room ( any ) the life-like presence or true realistic live performance is only our best " illusion/target ".
We can/could have only what is in the recording and that's why we have to take care to preserve with very high zealous that the cartridge signal pass for every single link ( in the whole audio/analog chain ) with loosing the less and adding the less where " loosing " means: the integrity of the cartridge signal and "adding " means: distortions/colorations/noises/inaccuracies at every single stage level.
For me this is the name of the game: " try to preserve intact the integrity on the cartridge signal: free of degradations. ".
Of course that this could be our target that it is almost impossible to achieve but we have to try!!!
IMHO as we have success in each stage/link audio system level preserving the integrity of the original sound signal then as we can/could have high/low quality level performance in our audio system.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
