I thought your review was admirable Jon.
I have the Raven AC with both the Continuum Copperhead (Dynavector DV1s) and Davinci Grandezza (ZYX Universe) arms, and I can clearly hear the different 'colouring' of both arms!
So perhaps the 'colouring' you are hearing is the reaction of the Phantom arm with the Raven?
Rather than strings....for me it's the solo piano which defines the realism possible with a great table and arm.
The Raven seems to have and store an enormous 'potential' energy which makes the attack and sustain of musical notes and fundamentals more like the real thing than anything else I have heard.
I personally prefer your choices in ancillary equipment (cartridges, phono stages, preamps and amps) to those of Mikey Fremer who lauds the Caliburn/Cobra combination.
I've heard this combination at length and believe that the Raven/Copperhead/Grandezza gives it serious competition.
With your comparison of the Raven to the Walker Proscenium, I simply have to agree with you......the Raven is a bargain! |
Phaser/Downunder,
A pleasure to have you both over at the same time to hear the Raven/Copperhead/Grandezza.
A Sunday or Monday in 3 or 4 weeks time would suit?
Use Email to confirm/liaise? |
Dgad,
You appear to have had the Phantom on your Raven at the same time as the Schroeder Ref?
Are you able to give us your impressions of these 2 arms? |
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I can't find it under its own title? |
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Thanks Albert,
Gosh.....I didn't even know that section existed?
I don't think many people will be aware of it?
Oh well. |
Raul,
I think you have misunderstood the review slightly.
I preferred the Davinci only above the OLD Copperhead (which was faulty).
Once the NEW Copperhead was installed, it was simply a different universe. |
Sirspeedy,
Raul has continually proclaimed the arm/cartridge compatibility issue and I'm willing to accept it for existing arms.
What I'm claiming for the Copperhead is that we simply can no longer view this as an arm which has a 'sound' which matches well with some equipment and some cartridges.
The Copperhead (and probably Cobra), is an 'absolute'.
If you want to hear the Master Tape you MUST have the Copperhead.
This Forum is about the Raven vs the Walker prompted by Jon Valin's review in TAS which was trying to determine his analogue REFERENCE deck.
We're all quite happy to find the best absolute turntable (without qualification).....but we think an arm cannot be the absolute BEST.
I'm claiming it CAN be.......and then the quality of all cartridges is judged simply by their performance in the BEST arm. |
Phaser,
Well of course there are many tables, arms and cartridges out there.
If we follow your argument, there can be NO declaration of SOTA in High End Audio because no-one will ever hear every combination of deck, arm and cartridge.
We must rely on others to provide experience and knowledge (just as we do with car reviews) and narrow down the ' contenders' .
Mikey Fremer has heard many more tables, arms and cartridges than I ever will. So has Jon Valin.
There is enough anecdotal evidence on Forums such as this one to make an assessment that the top arms include the Phantom, the Triplanar, the Davinci Grfandezza 12" Ref, and the Cobra.
There is general agreement among posters here and Fremer and Valin that the top turntables include the Walker, the Rockport, the Raven AC and the Continuum Caliburn.
There is some anecdotal evidence from these Forums that the Davinci is better than (or at least equal to).....the Phantom and Triplanar.
I've heard the Caliburn with the Cobra and the Raven AC-3 with both the Davinci and Copperhead.
If I can't make an educated assessment based on the above, we should all stop reading and writing about the High End. |
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I never meant to denigrate vacuum hold-down.
I merely stated that the Raven doesn't employ it and for me, I like it that way.
All the other turntable manufacturers who DO employ it make it an integral element of their system and it obviously works.
Just as some manufacturers make suspended decks work whilst others utilise the unsuspended principle.
Some make belt-drive their movement of choice whilst others use idler-wheel/rim drive or direct drive.
I honestly don't know which one is the best or even IF one of them is potentially THE best.
The fact that they are ALL made to work well, demonstrates that whatever choices the designer makes, his execution is the critical factor.
I simply like the ease of not having to shut-down after every side to every record is played.
The only caveat I would have to this is..........once you accept the designer's choices, I find it hard to understand the fact that you think you can improve upon his design?
Don't you imagine that before putting into production his ' masterpiece', he has tried everything to see if any improvements can be wrought in the prototype?
If it were as simple as a clamp or he realised he had ' misjudged' by not utilising vacuum hold-down?.....why would his design be even making it to the ' short list' of top turntables? |
Sirspeedy,
You and I are in total agreement.......at last! |
Raul,
If only life were as easy as Hi-Fi?
You (and many others), believe that you can improve all the individually designed components of a high-end analogue system.
And you in fact may have the electronic and technical understanding and ability to in fact do so.
But even YOU reach a limit of ability and practicality in the modification process whereby you are happy to accept the designers' products?
Why for instance, do you not change the boron cantilever of someone's cartridge to ruby to see how THAT might sound?
Why don't you remove some coils from your favourite MM cartridge to see how THAT might sound?
Why don't you change the line-contact stylus of your favourite cartridge to eliptical and see how THAT might sound?
Instead, you have dozens of cartridges which you use and accept for what they are, and how they are designed.
I'm afraid you cannot have it BOTH ways.
Either EVERYTHING can be improved by the user.... and SHOULD be.........or we insert and/or eliminate those components we can readily access which give our systems.....' proportion'.....as Stilskin likes to say.
Another problem I have with your readiness to change the designs of commercially available components, is that we.....the committed audiophiles out there....... no longer KNOW what you're talking about?
We must accept your word alone, that the changes have wrought sonic improvements.
Now I'm willing to believe that even minute changes can deliver large sonic differences.
What I'm never willing to blindly accept, is that those ' differences' ........are in fact IMPROVEMENTS.
It's hard enough to reach any sort of agreement amongst audiophiles with KNOWN components?............if we enter the land of ' trust me it's better....I wish you could hear it?', there will be no discourse available, simply a collection of individual stances of superiority. |
Phaser,
Once again I am in total agreement.
I am not against tweeks and power cord and cable experimentation.
This is where you have all misunderstood me.
I am against changing the basic principle of a component which you have already accepted and bought from a manufacturer.
If a designer decides to produce a non-suspended turntable, is it valid for a consumer to turn it into a suspended one?....it CAN be done!
If a designer decides to produce a valve driven amplifier, is it valid for a customer to change it to SS?....again, those with the technical abilities can do it!
If a designer spends years perfecting his turntable to play without a vacuum hold-down, is it valid to change his vision simply because it is able to be done?
A lot of you will say......sure it's valid. We may do whatever we wish to get the 'absolute sound'.
But if you really wanted a vacuum hold-down table?.....why not simply buy one in the first place?
If you wanted a suspended deck?....why not buy one in the first place?
I don't consider these changes to be 'tweeks'.........they are fundamental revisions to the designer's philosophy and I, being a designer (of buildings), do not take kindly to those who take it upon themselves to change my vision.
And Sirspeedy......if you really MUST depress me about current Aussie tennis players?.....the least you can do is talk about the Golden Days of Laver, Hoad, Newcombe and Roche!!? |
An entertaining and insightful read Sirspeedy (not to mention Pat Cash).
The problem with the Copperhead anti-skate mechanism that I'm struggling with......is that the NEW one is different to the OLD one (which is the one still explained in the otherwise excellent Instruction Manual).
The NEW one does not have the 2 holes in the weighted arm mechanism for the thread to double-back and be secured to the clamping screw.
It now only has the 1 hole and I can't figure out how to correctly relate it now to the clamping screw.
Mark Doehmann is hopefully coming to my place to show me the 'tricks' but it would have helped if the instruction manual had been updated?......incidentally, the reason I've been told that the design has been changed is that feedback in-the-field is that the OLD design was causing difficulties for 'users'?
Despite all of this, the design of this arm has unearthed some staggering revelations. |
It was great to meet Phaser and Downunder and much listening was done.
I must agree with their opinions on the 2 arm/cartridge combinations but like you Dgad, I can't attribute the bloated sound to the ZYX Universe.
I've lived with the Universe for 18 months and with the Rega 3/Hadcock, it was simply the best cartridge i have ever heard.
I know that Peter Brem likes the Davinci/Universe combination and many have used it happily.
I prefer to think that the Copperhead is such a leap forward ( a watershed if you like), in tonearm design, that other arms (including top contenders like the Davinci), are simply out of their league.
I know this is hard to fathom in high-end audio where incremental improvements are hailed with fan-fare and gigantic improvements are viewed with suspicion, but Downunder's statement that the Copperhead/DV1s was "in a different universe" .....to the Davinci/Universe is true.....and frightening.
Unless there is something seriously wrong with the Davinci or the Universe or the set-up?........it is hard to accept such an advancement at the pointy end of Hi-Fi? |
Sirspeedy I agree with all you have said and I think the poster you are speaking of is Thomasheid?
I have checked the parameters of set-up with the Davinci and whilst the geometry is spot-on, I'm experimenting with VTA and VTF hoping for that 'surprise' to which you allude. |
We do hear what you're saying Dgad, but when the actual Davinci arm manufacturer (Peter Brem), tells you that the Universe is a fine match with the Grandezza and is used by many owners of the arm that he knows......and when Thomasheid posts that his Davinci (out of all his tonearms), can take the widest variety of cartridges..........why do you insist on a mismatch issue here? |
Mark Doehmann, the genius designer and founder of Continuum Audio Labs visited yesterday to check my Copperhead set-up.
The arm of the anti-skate lever had not been drilled correctly so that there was no way to attach the arm thread to connect properly. Thankfully it wasn't my ineptness?
At the same time Mark saw the space restrictions which forced me to skew the counterweight to the wrong side, and by moving the Raven front motor to the rear of the deck, Mark was able to create room for all parameters of the Copperhead to be optimised.
So Phaser was correct in his initial assessment and the differences in sound are noticeable although Mark also claimed that even a poorly set-up Copperhead would work at 90% of its potential.
Even better news......in trying to adjust the VTA of the Davinci Grandezza, I found that the shaft was at its maximum extension in the locking collar which thus had little grip and obviously allowed movement in the whole arm pillar.
By inserting a ½" stainless steel spacer under the arm-board that Thomas Woschnick had belatedly sent,I was able to raise VTA and clamp the arm pillar firmly!
The 'bloated' sound has now disappeared and the sound of the 2 arms is much, much closer.
Now some REAL comparisons can begin.
So Sirspeedy and Phaser..........good calls, you were both right!
It was fascinating to hear Mark talk about his theories and designs and also about all the OTHER designs and designers out there? He knows every detail of every turntable and arm in the market....and even those NOT in the market?
Sorry to stray from the topic again? |
