Raven v Walker. Colored v Accurate?


This post has been generated following Jonathan Valin’s recent review of the Raven AC-3/Phantom combination in TAS. What intrigues me is not that JV has been lucky enough to review and buy or have on permanent loan yet another world’s best product. A truly astounding strike rate for any reviewer it must be said. Rather, it is what JV readily describes as the colored sound of the Raven/Phantom combination and the apparent appeal of this sound compared with what JV described as the more accurate sound of the Walker that piques my curiosity. This is not, I hasten to add about the relative merits of either table or their arms. The intention is not to have a slug-fest between Walker and Raven owners.

What really interests me is how it is that a product that in the reviewer’s opinion more accurately conveys what is on the source material is perceived as somehow less emotionally satisfying than one which presumably exaggerates, enhances or even obscures some aspect of the recorded information, if one can accept that this is what colored sound or the product’s character is. It appears counter intuitive and the deliberation of the phenomenon is making me question my own goals in audio reproduction. These have been pretty much on the side of more accurate is better and more emotionally compelling with due consideration to financial constraints in my choice of equipment in achieving this goal.

On face value and if you can accept the hyperbole it appears that the colored is better route is a little like going to a concert and putting on a device that allows you to alter the sound you hear. You twiddle a couple of knobs, sit back with a smile on your face and say “Ah! That’s better, that’s what I want it to sound like” You like it but it’s not necessarily what the musicians intended you to hear.

It seems logical that the closer one can get to accurately reproducing every piece of information recorded onto the medium then the closer you should be able to get to the actual performance, together with all the acoustic cues existing at that performance. I am making an assumption here that the recording medium is actually capable of capturing these things in the first instance.

We have our 12 inch pieces of vinyl on the platters of two systems under evaluation. We are not in the recording booth. The musicians are not on hand to play the piece over and over so that we can compare the live sound to the master tape and even if we did every performance is unique so we can never compare a second or third live performance with the one we just recorded. How then can the accuracy of a turntable/arm/cartridge combination and its ability to convey the emotion of the recorded event truly be evaluated? Ideally we should at least have the master tapes at hand to play on the same system in which we are evaluating the TT’s. The comparison will of necessity still be subjective but the determination would seem to be more believable than if the master tape were not part of the evaluation. If the master tape gave the listener no emotional connection with the musicians then I would contend that there would be something fundamentally flawed in another part of the playback system.

So in evaluating the two combinations would the more accurate combination be the more emotionally appealing? I cannot see how it would be otherwise unless we just don’t like what has been recorded or the way it has been recorded, the musicians have not made an emotional connection with us and the slightly flawed copy is preferred to the original. Is this why God made tone controls?

I have used the words seems, appears and presume quite deliberately, not to have a bet each way but because I am cognizant of the fact that we are, in audio reproduction dealing with the creation of an illusion and creating that illusion with people who have varying levels of perception, different experiences and tastes, different playback media and different physical replay environments so the task at hand for audio designers, humble reviewers and even we poor consumers could not be more complex.
phaser

Showing 4 responses by asa

Piedpiper, yes, intuition. But, it can be called more as one moves towards the "finish"...that doesn't mean, though, that Lao Tsu, or Jesus, wouldn't appreciate, or be fascinated by, or see value in, string theory.

Looking at your post again, I think I might not have understood it the first time around. I thought you were saying that the limitations or attractiveness of SET's is an experience that can be wholly described by scientific method (attractiveness being a state of the mind, which means your post would have been saying that the mind can only be described by such method of inquiry). But now you are taliking about, intuition - which, as for myself, I think has a big place in science (just ask Freyerabend...) - but which I think might get the fitchforks out from the accuracy crowd. You'll have to let me know...or not! I think I've pressed everyone's patience enough...
Phaser's assumption: accuracy = reality.

Remember, though, assumptions are the lens we all look through. If you assume before you start to look (or hear or taste, etc.)that "accuracy" will give you The Truth, then that is where you start from, and, perhaps, stop. I think Immanual Kant said something about this...

Basically, this is a debate that has been raging for a long, long time; namely, on one side are the scientific materialists, who say that Truth is solely found through breaking up what you see (or empirically experiment upon)into little bits. In this approach, objectivity is the grail, discovered through using the cognitive faculties to objectify what one is looking at. In stereo, we see this reflected in people who default to "accuracy" and try to make their soundstage into a statue garden (an analogy Jonathan Valin once used, now discarded, perhaps wisely). We have heard these types of stereos: everything carved out as if the sound emanations are "things" that we can nearly see (hence, the visual-related language to decribe such stereos - transparency, etc.). This mind wants sound-things that its mind can "see." It is not a coincidence that such cognitive analysis directed at sound results in a stereo that we many times say is, analytical.

On the other side are the Romantic Idealists. In this approach, science becomes something that is evil, the "other," and the mind defaults to only the subjective, and which drives the accuracy folks nuts because it just seems like to them as mystical regression (hence, accuracy's charge that pure subjectivity is an illusion of the mind upon itself). In stereo, we see this in soundscapes that are less "accurate" (i.e. sound is less of an object to control) in default to the experience of sound as meaning. This is where we see all of the Zen language associated with SE triodes, etc. And, sometimes, the threads of angry judgement that can be directed back at the accuracy camp (and, which, I would note, has little to do with the search for Beauty...).

Then there is a third way, a middle way. Actually, its not a middle path between the accuracy and romantic camps at all, but one that transcends them. This approach values the objective/cognitive, but realizes that it can't get you all of the answers (and that answer can then lead to questions like Phaser's). This way sees "accuracy" as a cognitive tool to get you some of the way there, but not all of the way. This approach knows that, if attached upon, accuracy can at some point get in your way. This way eventually gives up trying to wrestle more answers from reality (or from a stereo) with "accuracy" only, and begins to know that truths are also derived through "seeing," and "hearing into."

Now, I know that I can't tell you in language that this "seeing" or "hearing into" is True (because language is based dualistically in cognition), but...

Its like this: one man is in an airplane at a low altitude and see a coastline and it looks jagged. A second flyer decides to go higher and see the coast is less jagged, smoother. Its the same coast, but the first flyer has only seen the more jagged coast and so maintains that that is the True coast. While the higher flyer knows that one is not truer than the other, but that a True knowledge of the coast can be found at many altitudes (infinite altitudes, actually), with each altitude disclosing a deepening truth of the coast, through a knowledge of all altitudes, together. Now, the two flyers could argue about their different symmetries of Truth all day until they are blue in the face, but because they exist at different levels of sight, the lower flyer only sees through the knowledge lens of his or her own altitude and can't admit, even to the possibility, that higher sight exists. He's comfortable at his altitude, and the attachment to that comfort is the lens that keeps him there (but not for long, there's only one way, and its up, eventually).

Of course, the higher flyer should know better than to jabber on, but, hey, he knows that even by asking about "accuracy" the lower flyer is already become a searcher for higher altitudes, even though he may not know that his plane is starting to inch upwards, and may even deny the possibility of such movement while its starting. And, of course, before we start camps again, we should also see that there is no higher or lower. At a deeper place of sight, the flyers are seen as the same; they are both equal in their potential for higher flight, only separated by their will.

Phaser: this says it much better than I can,

From one side: "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Albert Einstein

From the other side: "One may explain water, but the mouth will not become wet. One may expound fully on the nature of fire, but the mouth will not become hot." - Takuan

But, Takuan and Einstein would surely hit me with a stick because there are no sides, only One side, with the division into altitudes merely a tool of my mind (and I get hit because I talk too much...:0)

So, how do I want my stereo to sound? I don't know enough to say that. Here's something, though:

"The wild geese do not intend to cast
their reflections,
The water has no mind to receive their images."

Its a haiku, I don't know what it means. But I would like my stereo tool to accurately and trans-accurately create sounds that catalyze my consciousness towards an experience of the meaning of music, like that haiku "sounds" in my heart.

Thank you for your indulgence.

Mark
I know, Phaser, out there, but, right, you did ask - although I like the Raven part of the thread just as much.

Since I assume most people won't read this farther, someone up above said they have listened to a slew of phono cables. I know that there are all kinds of variables there, but I'd still like to hear that person's opinions on those. Thanks.

Back to swisting the noodle...

Phaser, thanks for your answer. I understand. Although, it could be said that one man's pot luck (the appearance of randomness) is another man's open skies. Forest Gump said, "i don't know if Mamma was right or it was Lt. Dan; I don't know if we all have a destiny (determinism)or we are all just floatin' around on a breeze (randomness). But I think its both. I think both is a happin' at once."

Although I can't prove it to you, I can tell you that at one altitude it looks random and then at the next, not. At that next higher altitude, there is then a different kind of incongruency in experience, and then higher, a different kind; perceptions of chaos/order, perceptions of what is random and what is order, changing at each altitiude, on and on and on. Until you "see" all altitudes at once. Of course, that's not me; I have plenty of my own random-ness perceptions in my own little place, just none left related to empiricism versus subjectivism. Its the same coin to me; empiric subjectivism and experiential objectivism, no versus. Love science, love Van Gogh paintings. Not too crazy about what we are doing through our tools to the earth, and not too crazy about, well, 'ol Vincent being a bit crazy, but that's another story.

Yes, I run an all SET, hard wired, all NOS tubed system. But I know what you mean about euphonics. Live music is visceral and if any sound creation (in the hi-end, you are melding other peoples ideas of sound into your own by mixing components) has any quality that gets in the way of the subjective experience of the sound catalyzing the listening mind, then one should keep looking. For myself, I have a very hard time finding any speakers I like with SET's and have never liked an amp that didn't have NOS tubes (excepting the new production WE 300B, which I think is a good tube. Then, again, I haven't heard all of them). At one time I had ESP Concert Grands, big multi-driver speakers, being run by 50W SET's - really beatiful, stirring. So, I understand what you are saying there too. Valin described the Raven as "beautiful." Who doesn't want that in the/your world?

Piedpiper: Some things - actually, mostly about things - are verifiable empirically through scientific method (producing tools, which we call technology, putting tools together, which we call a machine). But not all experience is wholly quantifiable, including the perception of musical meaning. It would be great if that were the case, but, alas, it is not. The dynamics of reality, or the laws of physics, or "God," or whatever boat you want to row, hasn't made it that easy. It doesn't want someone else to run an experiment and, thereby, tell you all of the answers. Sure, you can derive much power over materiality by these methods, but, eventually, you see that "it" wants you to find the rest out on your own (that's where the need for security in attachment to scientific materialism comes in; deeper, its actually a recoil from being open to the possibility of more answers, which, paradoxically, isn't very scientific). A tool is not doing the listening, and neither are your ears; they are conduits to your mind. Information about second-order harmonics doesn't tell you the causal origin about why an SET system, or any system, catalyzes the mind deeper. It might be a good place to start, but its not the finish.

You can't prove "beauty" exists objectively, but don't you want it? Did/do you love your mother, your spouse? Prove it, to me, objectively.

Someone once said, "Argue for your limitations and, sure enough, they are yours." That's another dynamic of reality.
Forgot, back on point: I enjoyed the Raven review too. Makes me want to get one. Not only because of my/our obsession (down obsession, down!), but because Valin, I think, in an attempt to describe what he experienced, was willing to broach the use of language that he surely knew would get him some grief - and which told me how much he really liked it. The term, "colored," is a taboo word in the hi-end, but the descriptors,"warmer, richer," "beautiful" and "luxurious," are not necessarily bad things if they lead to falling deeper into the listening experience - that is the measure. Because, you know, its not just the absolute sound, its the absolute experience.