2. analog
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Questions about SACD vs.analog for classical music

I've just ordered a VPI Scoutmaster. A rather impulsive decision made at just the point when I was about to have my Sony 9000es modded. Not quite just at the point, but right after I removed my Hw-19jr/pt-6/Glider/blackcube rig from storage in order to get the parts ready for shipping to they new owners. I had what i thought would be my last night listening to the TT, after a several year hiatus, and you know what? There was that organic something, that harmonic coherence in certain recordings that I noticed only in the very best SACDs. In some of my LPs, that 'present' or 'real' feeling exceeded all but one or two of my SACDs (only the Rite of Spring on Telarc, a few tracks from the telarc classical sampler 2, and one other were superior to anything I heard on the VPI). OK, the SACDs were obviously cleaner sounding and more extended (I was using Stax sr-lambda phones) except when compared to a couple of the highest quality analogue productions lps I own, but it got me thinking: hey, if my humble jr. sounds this good now, I can only wonder how good one of the purportedly much improved high-end rigs would sound. The Sony mods would have cost upwards of $1300, but selling my jr. and lumping all that dough together and allocating it to a renewed involvement in analog looked, well, promising.
So I ordered a new Scoutmaster (at substantial discount) with the JMW-9 arm and am now by the way researching my options for cartridges and preamps. I've sold my blackcube, but have a Jolida JD-9 on load from a dealer, which sounds very nice with the jr. (the sold TT about to be shipped) - very vivid and harmonically satisfying, well articulated, etc - though it's not as quiet as the 'Cube and I even can hear some AM radio coming through my phones when I turn up my linestage preamp volume. But here I digress.
My main reason for starting this thread, aside from having some assorted questions about carts, preamps, and the like, is to ask for some objective and subjective opinions regarding the decision I just made. Bear in mind that my main interest is classical music, especially chamber (esp. string quartets, trios, wind quintets, etc) and piano with some orchestral, followed by classic rock and some Blue-Note era jazz. The SACD route seemed promising at first, and I told myself that, even though there were only a smattering of sacd recordings for many of my favorite classical performers (eg. Elly Ameling Soprano, Yo-Yo Ma, Rubinstein), there were so many truly talented lesser-knowns on the sacd scene (e.g. pianist Freddy Kempf on BIS, Csaba and Heisser on Praga digitals, and of course Paavo Jaervi on Telarc) that I deemed my chances of attaining long-term satisfaction with purely sacd (and a little redbook on the side) to be very good. Especially after sacd mods. As for classic rock, the SACD of the Police Synchronicity just blew me away (through Sennheiser HD600w/cardas cable).
But THEN it occurred to me that the only way to possibly hear my very favorite string quartet - the Vegh Quartet - in better than redbook fidelity was through vinyl. Ditto for numerous other performers who will never appear on sacd. Then of course there's always the Beatles, Stones, Jerry Garcia and others to sweeten the deal for vinyl. By the way, I sold my Ikemi redbook player in order to open up some new options and try something new. Even my girlfriend almost cried to see the Ikemi go, her having been converted just enough to an audiophile that she could absolutely see someone justifying having spent almost four grand on a source component (even a non-disc changer)
So what do you guys think? When my scoutmaster arrives, am I in for some visceral thrills and deep musical connection? I know that it's also dependent on the rest of my system, and so far I've narrowed cart choices down to the Lyras and the Shelters, leaning heavily towards the former. As for phono preamps I'm considering the Linto, Ear 834p mm/mc, and a few others including a modded Jolida JD-9 or something along those lines.

Is the scoutmaster, fitted with a $1000+ cartridge and a similarly priced phono preamp, going through Cardas golden reference into either a Bryston B60 integrated (and then to Sennheisers or B&wdm603) OR into a Stax srm-t1 tube driver of my Stax electrostats, going to 'knock my socks off' as suggested by Mike at VPI yesterday? How close can I get to SACD (especially to the 'pure DSD') fidelity through this setup? I know speed stability and noise floor will be drastically improved, giving tones accuracy and timbral accuracy, and i expect bass to be better and overall macro and microdynamics as well BUT... am I going to be able to achieve some of the same absolutely organic, sparkling, and pure sound of some of the better DSD recordings? What about the musical clarity per se of redbook, in particular when listening to string quartets and the like? Will I get a 'clean' sound in the tonal sense, not overly dark, but a sound that seems right? What about the upper octave of piano?
I once read an article long ago (i believe it was in stereophile) in which the author admitting to prefering cassette tape over vinyl due to it having cleaner and more pitch accurate upper octave reproduction. That was then, this is now. What do you guys think? (last time I'll ask that, I promise!)

Ted
tedd1

Showing 5 responses by tedd1

tedd1 OP
36 posts
 
All the the most accomplished classical musicians I've ever known personally (including a clarinet player in the Boston Philharmonic who's a long-term friend of my girlfriend, a pianist who recently finished a doctorate in composition, a harpsichordist who is friend of my parents, my classical guitar instructor who attended Eastman as well as another virtuoso guitarist, Apostolos Paraskevas, who taught me for several years until I couldn't afford him), seem complacent with the worst low- to mid-fi sound systems. They must be interested in just the notes themselves or something. Likewise my girlfriend's brother-in-law and his two (now) adult children - classical trumpet, violin, and piano respectively - ALL heavily embrace the iPod and use the stock Earbuds! They don't even both to encode their music at higher than 192kbs, even though their large capacity iPods would accomodate it. The classical trumpet player is a talented amateur who regularly plays in a brass quintet in Wayland, MA, and his son especially is a talented (though not quite concert-level) pianist who plays challenging concertos very well at almost full tempo. All the above people have large collections of classical recordings, yet none of them own a system that even deserves to be called 'a system'. We're talking worse than Bose speakers, $200 CD changers made ten years ago by Kenwood and the like, $60 headphones in the best case scenario and usually worse.
I don't know what the point of my spiel here is, but intuitively I feel that whether or not classical music lovers (I'll assume that those performers do in fact love the music they listen to) embrace a medium or not is hardly the basis upon which the given medium can claimed to be sonically superior. I myself am an audiophile, but my technical skill as a musician is far below that of those mentioned above. However I will say that there was a time early in my life as a youngster when I even enjoyed listening to the reproduction of works such as the William Tell Overture on my 1983 IBM PC that had no soundcard and as such played only the tones themselves - nearly monophonic.
I'm not implying that digital sound reproduction only gets the notes - that would be utterly absurd - but in light of the above, I'm inclined to think that many classical music lovers have embraced the digital medium without regard for the types of sonic omissions which some accuse all but the high-end digital recordings and playback of exhibiting. It is true in classical music more than in any other genre that the essence of the music - what the composer had in mind so to speak - is largely conveyed by the printed score.to those who are trained to interpret it. So if printed musical scores sufficed for so long as an adequate recording medium, it's no surprise that classical music lovers would have lower audio standards RELATIVE to the reproductive demands placed by (especially richly orchestrated) classical music on a given recording medium and playback apparatus. Thus since clarity is above all the prime requisite for accessing classical works, I'm not surprised at all when lovers thereof embrace whichever is the clearest option relative to their financial means. In a sense, I'm accusing some classal music lovers of being 'clarity whores', though admittedly this claim is contradicted to some extent by the less than stellar clarity - with respect to the more understated or softly articulated symphonic phrases - offered by a pair of earbuds. Yes, there's so much more to a classical performance than the music per se, but unlike other genres, their notes themselves can provide long-term musical satisfaction to those who's brains happily decode them.
I hope didn't open a can of worms here.
On a different , the Fedex train carrying my new Scoutmaster has reportedly pulled into the station, so in a few hours - by the end of the day latest - I shall know whether all my love has been in vain (sorry, i had a high fidelity dream about that last night (those guitars!), and has been in my head ever since, albeit now on a vanishingly
Ted
tedd1 OP
36 posts
 
Wow thanks for all the feedback. It;s fun to read and write about this stuff. So the Scoutmaster will - barring catastrophe - definitely arrive tomorrow, as will a used Ear 834p deluxe (chrome) which I was the first to snag here today for $800 (seemed a decent price anyway, from resale perspective at least), and a Lyra Helikon (normal 0.5mv version). I settled on the Lyra and 834p on the basis of having read of, and further intuited the implications of - with respect to my own taste - each's pros and cons; the Helikon's purported slight pushing of detail over musicality well complemented by the Ear's reputation for the opposite. Moreover the deep line-contact aspect of the Helikon really penetrating down to the cervices of previously unreachable (by other cartridges) pristine groove depths of my LPS kind of sealed the deal. That and the fact that this particualr Helikon was at the right place at the right time today
I should be listening to the table set up tomorrow with the 1.25mv Glider I already own ( the rest of the hw-19 jr walked out the door today), and with the Helikon either Saturday or Monday depending on when it arrives (I got to trade some LPs to partly eat up what was already a good deal). The Scoutmaster box will arrive sealed and have a recent serial number, and will I be tempted to open it? You betcha. I'll lose the option of modding the sony for at least many months to come, but I already enjoy the SACD sound of the unmodded unit enough to connect with the music, given the best performances (IMO ones such as the Brahms Violin Sonatas and Clarinet Quintets and Beethoven Piano Trios, plus all the great piano and orchestral - but DANG hardly ANY classical guitar, of which I'm one of the lesser amateurs).
The last LP I listened to before packing up the hw-19jr/pt-6/glider rig was "The Guitar Artistry of Charlie Byrd" (Analogue Productions). This recording and (to a somewhat lesser extent its music) never fails to blow my mind when heard through either my Stax or or Sennheiser HD600/cardas. The percussion in particular is breathtaking, especially the bossa nova type stuff on side 2. I had the guy (and his more experienced audio buddy who is reintroducing him to vinyl and advising him) listen to the first 2 1/2 tracks on side 2 through both my humble B&W DM603 (which he also bought from me) and through the HD600. His mind was also blown, as was his friend's. Just such a great recording and the delightfully round notes and variously textured nylon string guitar licks, slaps, and chokes ajockeying for position among the traditionally percussive elements - these in turn backed by a deeply organic and well defined acoustic bass as the third instrument - was a sonic and (again to a lesser degree, musical) experience so far unrivalled by my unmodded 9000es.
It's not a very fair comparison, since I have no Charlie Byrd on SACD, nor do I think that the jr. could have reproduced a vinyl cut version of the DSD Rite (among others), but the magic conveyed in the Byrd trio recording seemed SO musically 'right' (slight buzzing in the very loudest passages not withstanding) and at the same time expressive of all acoustic and musical elements for which I would ever hold an allegedly faithful rendition accountable, that I could only surmise that, yes, the scoutmaster/jmw-9/helikon/ear will indeed be all that and more.
Only downside is, i had to sell my only non-minature transducers (the Dm603) in order to enter the game on this level.
I'll report back with my first impressions. Ready or not, I'm ready for some hardcore slouching on the couch this weekend, for what one person predicted will be '[my] week of sonic revelation'. And to the guy above who has the same musical taste as I - thanks for giving me an philosophical escape hatch through which to crawl should a modded Sony turn out to have been the 'correct' path for me, given my [our] listening tastes; such escape hatch being that leading comfortable into the notion that, hey, there will always be the fun of finding cheap vinyl that sounds great. So my Scoutmaster and 9000es can get along like cats and dogs raised in the same home from birth, and curl up together in a manner vaguely and stereotypically reminiscent of the yin and yang.
Cheers, and keep it coming!
tedd1 OP
36 posts
 
This doesn't even look like the same thread any more. Since I''ve been gone, my innocent little question about various Agon members' *personal* experiences listening to classical SACD versus those listening to the same on vinyl has apparently spawned a panoply of continuations into the realms of the theoretical and elsewhere, with much proselytizing going on on several fronts.

For what it's worth, my scoutmaster/ear 834p/Lyra Helikon/Stax/Cardas Golden Ref. rig is finally up and going, blowing my mind continuously. Rigtht now I'm like one of those rats who keep pawing the release level on the little narcotic pellet dispenser continuously until its mesolimbic reward system is stoked at all times via every efferent. That's my one bit pseudo-intellectual gibberish for the evening. Now back to some SACD walloping colored euphony (after all I am using all tubes, from preamp to head amp)

When my feel-good chemicals have been expended to the point of a short period of neurochemical vesicular replenishment being on order, then perhaps I shall drop by and share some whining and pining.
tedd1 OP
36 posts
 
It's been two days since I had my Helikon professionally installed and my TT tweaked in my home by a senior tech from a nearby high-end audio shop. Since my Stax dedicated amp had arrived just a few days before the Ear 834p phono preamp and the Scoutmaster, I've had to do some serious neurological adjusting to the new sonics. Allthough what I had heard up until today had had be somewhat divided between sacd and vinyl (excepting of course classic rock, which always sounds best on vinyl owing perhaps to some of its colorations), a listening session today resolved it for me once and for all. I listened to one of my favorite classical Lps which I hadn't heard since around the time I first bought my hw-19jr some years ago. It is an original Decca pressing in excellent but not NM condition (also needs to be cleaned, but is OK) of Stravisnky's Symphony in C, conducted by Ansermet. At first it sounded nice and textured, but i had trouble adjusting to where all the instruments were located spatially (after all, I am using headphones, even if they are Stax electrostats). Then I remembered a listening trick I learned when I was about 18, and have used from intermittently since then, whenever a recording or live performance is musically or otherwise challenging. I focussed all my awareness away from my ears directly, up towards the top of my head. Within a minute everything clicked into place, so to speak, and I experienced everything about which high-end proponents of analog (and perhaps very high-end digita)l have been raving for years - a sense of the music being totally liberated from its medium and playback system. Expressed prosaically, pitch, microdynamics, and timbres were spot-on. Expressed another way - a way doing better justice to the person within whose crushed spirit begs for this kind of sonic rightness - the music took on a playfully animated quality that transcended the genre and lit up the imagination as no recording and hardly any performance has ever done (save those heard 'under the influence' many years ago, and even then only rarely). I should add that I own this piece on redbook CD, and have heard it performed in concert as well, but my experience of it today defied categorization. For what it's worth, I was in a bad mood and was also having a little buyer's remorse about having spent almost every penny allocated to audio stuff on an analog front end. It seemed that every LP I removed from the cover was dusty and/or had some of my years-since deceased cat's hair on it, so I was hardly biased in favor of having this particular LP sound so damned good.
tedd1 OP
36 posts
 
I may get the Ear modded by Mitch Singerman, or sell the Ear down the road if something better pops up used. For now I'm enjoying the setup I have, though it is admittedly cooler sounder than the Glider i was used to. I looked into the Shelter 901, which was my top choice besides the Helikon, but the reviews i read weren't quite as exclamatory about the 901 as they were about the 501, the latter being hailed as a triumph at its price point.
Thanks for the tip about the Art audio though. I'll definitely look into that.
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