Halcro, thanks for your help. It is kind of strange, Air Tight sounds fine with 230mm P2S being close to the furthest point away on the headshell with Baerwald. I think that if my XV-1s can be mounted with plenty of wiggle room with both 230/231.5 mm as you have with no problem then I just assume it is one of Air Tight quirks. If I have similar problem with XV-1s then I guess I do have a problem (keep my fingers crossed!) |
Hi Nandric, I had similar thought about machine shop to make my own arm board also. Many of my friends use these shops to make arm board for various arms so I do have access to some local shop here, both metal and acrylic. Unfortunately in the case of SX-777, to install 66s, I would need to cut a new hole on the table itself as well since phono wire came out from the bottom of the mount. With the standard arm board, in the usual position on 777, no matter where I cut the hole on the armboard, there is not enough distance to accommodate 66s P2S.
Right now I am perfectly happy using 66s on my "other" turntable :) |
Thanks, Syntax and all for information. FR manual and vinyl engine also gave 295 as P2S distance. I just recalled some discussions that some people recommended 296mm. Same go for FR 64 where FR spec and what was discussed in agon was also slightly different. However, for some reason when I tried searching old threads, I could not find that specific thread anymore regarding published spec vs what's some people experieces have been. Was it dertoarm who discussed that? By the way, Micro Seiki fixed armboard only allowed me the mount FR 64s with P2S distance that is the same as FR's published spec so I never did try the alternative P2S.
Now I have both FR64s and FR66s, FR64s on Micro Seiki SX-777 Air, FR66s on TW as SX-777 Air won't take FR 66s as far as I know.
Koetsu will go on FR66s for now. FR64s with a bit less effective mass probably would play better with my other relatively high mass medium compliance as far as resonance is concerned. For Air Tight PC-1 supreme, resonance would be high 7 almost 8Hz with FR-66s, I think that should also be ok.
Right now I use Oyaide carbon fiber headshell with its silver lead. I heard a lot of good things regarding Orsonic headshell as well and I have been thinking of trying that. Otherwise, I have FR headshell, Koetsu headshell(which has only 3 fixed distance I could not use it with FR to mount anything that would get me the right overhang with any protractors that I have) and a phasetech (most were all hand me down from a friend who collects way too many things). |
Thanks all for the information.
Nandric, I don't plan to get rid off FR 64s either. Just go on the a different table. I got the FR66s from a good friend. I am not sure what the realistic price or fair price of FR 66s is (is there such thing) but I did pay quite a bit less than ebay usual asking price. I did see that there is an armboard for 66s for SX-777 so I will have to see if I could find one. In the meantime, FR 64s stays on my Micro Seiki.
I bought the FR mainly because all the other arms I have did not play well with Koetsu. Now that I have 2 FRs, I can try other cartridges as well. |
Thekong, you are right. I goofed and was mistaken an armboard for 777L for 777. Which might as well as another friend has been suggesting that now that I have 66s, I should sell my 64s to him. This way, I need to keep 64s for my 777! |
I have been sitting on the fence about getting Orsonic headshell for awhile. I heard a lot of good thing about it but also heard about fake one. On Ebay, certainly juki seems to have unlimited supply which made me wonder. Although I had good experience getting other stuffs from him and another friend bought a lot from him in the last several years and never complained about getting any fake item.
Orsonic clamp I got from him looked the same as far as I could tell from my friend's much older unit.
Now of course there are other sellers with similar name to Juki from the same country undercutting juki's price as well which make me even more worry!
May be I should just stick with either FR headshell that came with my FR or Oyaide carbon fiber headshell? |
Dear Nandric, adding the cost of headshells and Oyaide silver leads, soon FR 64s seems like a bargain :) |
I have to agree with Halcro. FR 66s, at least in my system and my preference, works much better than Graham Phantom 2 supreme 12 inch. I had Graham for about a year and never could dialed it in to my liking with various cartridges that I have and I finally sold it. 3 days with FR and I am already very impressed. I never had a chance to compare FR 64s with Graham as I could not mount both on the same table.
My impression though is that may be Graham is still a touch faster, bass is very tight but also a bit more on the lean side. FR bass is bigger, richer, more solid which may make it sound a tad slower but still fast and very tuneful. Mid range and high is significantly better than Graham though. Graham has lots of detail, very clean but always sounded a bit sterile, a bit lean for my taste especially with Graham IC-70 phono cable which I tossed out very quickly. FR also throw the widest soundstage I ever heard in my system. I wish VTA is a bit easier to adjust. I really like the VTA on the fly like those on VPI, Reed or Graham arm. This way, it would a lot of fun to mount lots of cartridges on various headshells and swap them quickly. I think somebody made a VTA ring or something that works with FR 66s.
I much prefer Reed over Graham also (which does not mean that Graham is neccesarily bad, another friend with similar setup prefer Graham or Reed). May be I like the coloration brought on by wood arm wand and willing to give up a bit of bottom end authority and speed for rich,smooth, big midrange rather than the more neutral Graham but FR 66s seems to bring the best of both worlds. |
Thanks for the information. Will have to look for the VTA base. The arm I got came in original box with manual and 2 counter weights, 2 antiskating weight etc, seems very complete except for the VTA :(
Syntax, yes, I also was told the same thing regarding the alignment tool. I was using mintlp that I got originally for my Reed 12 inch. Apparently, it has exactly the same dimension, lengthwise. The result was better but still did not quite make it for me. |
I am using Acrolink 8N Reference Din/RCA cable into Aesthetix Io Eclipse currently. Also been playing with Lamm Phono with either its MC input or external SUT as well.
Still have not decided which combination I prefer yet.
I do like idea that Reed has also with no connector or cable break anywhere between cartridge all the way to RCA plug and still enjoy listening to Reed/Lyra Atlas just as well.
The only comparison between Reed and FR in my system so far is that Reed definitely does not play well with Koetsu and I am willing to settle for incompatibility/synergy problem rather than inferior product. Now that both Reed/Lyra and FR/Koetsu sounds great on the same table, I am a bit too lazy to switch Lyra over to FR for now. However, I was told that Lyra was designed and tuned with copper wire in mind (don't know how true this is though) so I definitely want to try that. My Reed came with silver wire so I do want to try it with a different arm/cable one of these days. |
Dear Nandric, you could be right regarding wood choice. When I ordered Reed, there was really no way to tell which arm wand would be ideal. Actually, I wanted to order Pernambucco as well based on Reed's graph. However, I did talk to Reed before hand about which arm wand to order and I specifically mentioned that I was planning on using Koetsu with Reed. Reed suggested that I go with Cocobolo which has similar effective mass as Pernambucco. Reed also suggested my local dealer to use Cocobolo with Miyajima line of cartridge that they also carry. Cocobolo wand sounds great with Miyajima so I don't think it is the low compliance cartridge issue. It also sounds wonderful with my Lyra, XV-1s and Air Tight in my system but just not Koetsu. It was not bad but I felt the sound was not on the same level as other cartridges that I have. Koetsu on FR was also in its own different league than Reed/Koetsu. Just my own observation in my own system, of course.
As I am very happy with Reed with other cartridges, that was why I said that it was most likely compatibility/synergy issue more than anything else. May be another wood type would work better but I don't have a resource to try all. It would be fun if Reed has interchangeable armwand as I certainly would not mind experimenting that way.
After I sold my Graham, I was considering either Reed 3P or Thales Simplicity and was planning to audition both a bit later on this year but FR 66s kind of fall in my lap unexpectedly so I will leave my analogue front end as is for now. |
Syntax, I also agree that in case of phono, silver does seems to make the best sense due to very low signal level. Most cables that I have are silver, using silver headshell lead etc. I was just wondering about copper when I heard someone mentioned that Lyra recommended copper wire. I suppose it is possible as copper wire will have different sound characteristic than silver. ZYX also offers cartridges with different wiring inside and I thought that some people actually prefer copper wire version over silver and gold. Never heard them myself though. |
Dear Raul, thanks for your very thoughtful post. I understand your point and certainly see why you think this way. However, I have to say that my priority is a bit different from yours and this should not come as a surprise since I like FR/Koetsu combination so much :)
I do think that Graham is a more neutral arm than Reed and since Reed and FR share some trait in common, I guess by default, Graham is more neutral than FR as well.
What I don't like (big disclaimer, according to my taste only!) for example, piano, on Graham, you hear the initial attack of the note very clearly and cleanly. However, you get a lot less decay from the string, even if pedal is fully engaged. I don't know if microphone, even placed over the soundboard/string bed, are not capable of picking this up or if they are lost once mixed in with other tracks for ambience etc. I practice on my grand piano pretty much daily and I am very familiar with this rich tone from a piano. On Graham, it just sounds drier, leaner like sustained pedal is not engaged or only half pressed. Reed and FR have these in spades. May be the data is not really there as much on recording and may be it is really distortion from the arm that give the illusion of this decay but I love it. I feel it is closer to what I hear every day on my piano. In fact, during the one year that I have Graham, I hardly ever play any piano recordings on Graham as I find it less bearable.
At the end of the day, we all have to make some compromise and pick and choose strenght of each stereo equipment and accept the flaws that appear the lesser evil to our ears. To my ears, to the kind of music that I love, I just find virtue and flaw of FR/Reed more to my liking and tolerable and since I am the one paying and listening to it and have to live with it, my taste rules in my living room :)
However, your point is well taken and I certainly take that into consideration when I audition a piece of equipment as well.
By the way, up to a couple of days ago, I only heard FR with Koetsu. I just mounted Air Tight on FR 64s/Micro Seiki and the result is quite interesting. It sounds a lot more different than when I have it on Reed/TW or my VPI Classic. I am still adjusting and fiddle with it so I am not quite ready to make up my mind yet but it sounds almost like a different cartridge to me. Good but in a very different way, go figure! |
Dear Raul, I wonder what is your impression of say Soulution electronics with Magico speakers, Boulder amp or Burmester.
To my ears, Soulution/Magico has just about the cleanest, hyperdetail sound that you can get which to my ears would mean the least distortion. Boulder and Burmester (heard them with different speakers), also gave me similar impression although the actual sound are quite different.
Nevertheless, for my taste, I found Soulution/Magico rather unmusical. Impressive sound but it does not move me emotionally.
Acoustic music, vocal (especially when singing with vibrato) contains all kind of harmonics and the note is not a single frequency which in electronic terms, I guess could be construe as distortion.
I understand that one may say that all those natural distortion/harmonics are captured in the recording therefore stereo playback equipments should not add any more distortion beside whatever is presented on the recording itself.
In practice though, I find that electronics with a bit more distortion (say tubes vs solid state, very gross generalization here or digital vs analogue), the one with more distortion actually sounds more pleasing and actually give a bit more illusion of being there (but not neccessarily more accurate in absolute term).
One possible explaination could be that when mixing multitracks, multi mike recording or even those Mercury minimal 3 mikes mixing down to 2 tracks, may be we are losing some of those details and distortion that is created in our playback chain may give back some of that missing link.
This is all just a guess though as I have nothing concrete to back this up but wondering what is your take on this.
I used to use Esoteric D-05 and switched to Playback Design PD-5. PD measured far worse (according to Stereophile measurement, I did not see D-05 number but I assume it would be like other Esoteric products) than D-05 but sounds a lot more musical to my ear than Esoteric.
Back to FR topic a bit, I also notice that for example, Air Tight really sounds significant different from Koetsu when using Reed, Graham or JMW 10.5. It is very easy to hear Air Tight's characteristic sound with those arms. Mounting it on FR 64s, I think that the contrast between Koetsu and Air Tight is not as obvious. They are still different but less than what I remember with other arms, still sound great however. I don't know if anyone else has similar finding. However, I still have not really fine tune or optimize the setting very much so this is kind of preliminary finding. May be I still need to dial in the set up more though.
One the other hand, may be Koetsu really did not match well with other arms so the difference in sound could be from better matched Air Tight vs poorly matched Koetsu but FR really lifted the performance of Koetsu up to Air Tight level, perhaps. |
Lewn, that's exactly what I am thinking as well.
There was a thread awhile ago I think on audio asylum regarding professional gear and recording studio. Supposedly someone talked to Bob Ludwig (I think it was him or may be another major recording engineer) who said that he had compared live mike feed, DSD recording and analogue tape recording from the same mike feed and found that DSD is the closest to live mike feed but analogue tape sounded better. However, he did not say which sounded closest to the actual event nor did he say how it was better.
I found some digital recording that was then made into LPs sounded slightly different from its CD counter part but did not add anything much more and I generally prefer CD just for the ease of use. Some digital recordings such as DG Zimermann's Chopin ballades sounded quite dreadful on CD but rather good on LP. The more recent SFO Mahler Cycle with Michael Tilson Thomas and Paavo Jarvi Beethoven symphonies cycle were recorded in DSD but I found the LPs more enjoyable eventhough the SACDs are already very good. I think Jarvi's recording was remastered again specially for LP so it is not exactly the same as SACD but not sure about SFO Mahler's one. |
Hmmm... just wondering. I tried 231.5 mm P2S distance for FR64s and found that I could barely set overhang correctly
using Clearaudio protractor. Pushing the cartridge all the way out on the headshell (Kiseki Blue with Orsonic headshell, Air Tight with Ikeda headshell). If I use Feickert protractor,it fell just a touch short of Baerwald, nowhere near getting Lofgren nullpoint and Stevenson is the only on that I still have quite a bit room to spare.
I wonder if anyone else has the same problem or may be I am doing something wrong here. A friend has a Dennesen protractor that I want to try but have not had time to get it from him yet.
On FR66s, I only use Clearaudio protractor so far which is also barely fit but sounds the best I ever heard from Koetsu so I have not been fiddling around much with it yet. |
Strange, actually, I should say that the problem is mainly with my Air Tight cartridge. Forgot to mention that Kiseki has 5 sets of mounting holes along its body so I have more range to mount the cartridge. Air Tight only has one set of holes to mount the cartridge. If I use 230mm, there is no problem and I have a bit of room to spare. Just at 231.5 only.
I assume that the center of the tower is where I would measure P2S.
May be it is just the Air Tight cartridge? I assume that all headshells have the same dimension, lenghtwise but assume that each cartridge will have a bit of a different dimension lenghtwise, as far as overhang is concerned.
On FR66s, I only try Koetsu with Oyaide headshell so far and I have a couple of mms to spare in front.
I did not have problem with Koetsu on FR64s in the past either but only at 230mm.
Halcro, if I remember correctly, you have Dyna XV-1s. I will try to mount XV-1s on one of my headshells and see how much wiggle room I have.
Now I seems to amass quite a few protractors, beside Feickert and Clearaudio, I do have 2 mint protractors for Reed and 10.5 arm. I have no idea what logarithm Clearaudio uses. Elsewhere on the net, someone mentioned that it looks like a Dennesen protractor but I am not sure if they only talk about the look or the actual null point. I burrowed my friend's Dennesen protractor once a long time ago and compared and I thought the nullpoint was pretty much the same. Generally I just prefer Clearaudio over Feickert just because it is much easier to see silver protractor with black line than black protractor with white line which my poor eyes really struggle to see especially with Koetsu and Air Tight cartridges where the stylus is hidden under the body of the cartridge. |
Halcro, thanks for your information. I mounted XV-1s yesterday and there was a few more mms wiggle room than Air Tight using Baerwald geometry on Feickert protractor.
So look like it was Air Tight and not something wrong with my arm or protractor as far as I could tell.
Feickert protractor is rather difficult to see especially if I have a light source on the side or the rear to help me see better. Light source is very useful for Air Tight and Koetsu especially but not as needful for Dynavector or Lyra. Surprisingly, I get a lot of glare of the black surface. Clearaudio silver finished is easier to see but Mint mirror surface is by far the best.
I saw Uni-tractor on acoustical system website. Is that the same protractor that Dertoarm made awhile back? There is an economical version call SMARTrack. Looks interesting! |
Dear Raul, I have a few protractors mainly because I am still trying to find one that I really like. Personally, I like Mint protractor the best as far as ease of use, mirror surface and all. It is a lot easier to use for cartridges like Koetsu, Air Tight and Kiseki. However, now that I have 4 arms and most likely there will be more in the future, I don't want to keep buying new Mint protractor every time so I start looking around for universal protractor. I think Feickert is great and it has 3 geometries to choose but its finish make it harder for me to use on the 3 cartridges mentioned above. Clearaudio is fine but it has only one geometry with 4 IEC options. I figure since I spend all these moneys on cartridges and arms, why not experiment a bit more with various protractors if it may make a big enough difference in setting the arm/cartrige properly.
I am thinking of trying SMARTracker just because it seems that on the usability side, it is more well thought out that other protractors and seemed to be one that was really designed by end-user for user. It may not be more accurate than Feickert but at the very least, it would be more user friendly, I would guess. |
Dear Nandric, you may be right regarding mint protractor.
I think I will try SMARTracker for a little while. At least I want to spend a bit more time experimenting with 230 vs 231.5mm on FR64s and once I made up my mind, then I get mint.
For FR66s, did Dertoarm have alternative P2S distance as well or only the FR's spec of 295mm only? |
Halcro, I am very clueless about this and I am not quite sure what to do with the information that you give. I think I need a remedial study on this!
Came with my FR 66s arm, there is a paper protractor, is that the FR66s original tangential curve/geometry that you mentioned in the above post? I guess I need to give that a try. |
Halcro, thanks for your help. I am already doing No1 at the moment. My Feickert NextGen protractor does not have correction for overhang as far as I can tell. Just set P2S distance and choose geometry and that's about it.
A bit of a bummer as I chose to order SMARTracter rather than Uni-tracker (along with Arche headshell) just a few days ago. Oh well... a friend ordered Uni-tracter so at least I will have a chance to try it and see how that go. |
Halcro, thanks again for your information. I will wait for SMARTracker to arrive before experimenting. I assume that once setting P2S to 231.5 and using UNIdin and align it to null point properly, offset angle and overhang would be adjusted to the new spec automatically, if I am reading your post correctly.
This is a lot of fun and please hijack the thread as you wish. FR66s, FR64s, I needs all the help I can get for both!
I also recently got the B-60 VTA adjustment replica for FR66s which is great. Now I will have to save up for another one for FR64s. However, I will need to find a new armboard as my Micro Seiki armboard for FR will not accomodate the larger diameter VTA on the fly module. |
Having been listening to FR 66s for the last couple of months with a few cartridges, I think that it is definitely outstanding for low compliance high mass cartridge. In my system, Koetsu Coralstone and Ikeda Kai sounded exceptional.
I tried Koetsu with JWM 10.5, TW 10.5, Graham Supreme 12 inch, Reedd 3Q and heard it with Vyger linear tracker, current version of Triplanar in other systems and none came close to what FR 66s can do with Koetsu. I prefer Air Tight PC-1 supreme with Reed, Dynavector XV-1s with Graham. Both work well with FR 66s as well but not on the same performance plane as Koetsu and does not outperform other arms in my system. I only try Ikeda Kai with FR 66s so far and it really sings such that I have no urge to hear it with another arm just yet. |
