Pain,
I've had four unipivots.......Hadcock GH-228, Grace 940G, Continuum Copperhead and Phantom II.
I never found the Graham to be better in its speed or transient response than any of the other unipivots.
I can say that the FR-64s and 66s better the Graham in all meaningful parameters in my system.
As for build quality..........the FR arms as well as arms by the Japanese masters like Micro Seiki, and SAEC are simply in a different league to the Grahams........or any other modern arms I know of? |
As Thuchan has mentioned......the FR-66s is possibly the most 'universal' tonearm ever designed?
The only modern arms which I have found to equal it (and the FR-64s) in this respect......are the Continuum Cobra and Copperhead.
I have directly compared the FR-64s and 66s to the DaVinci 12" Grandezza and the Graham Phantom II on the same turntables with a range of cartridges (both LOMCs and MMs)........and the Fidelity Research arms have a control and authority which is immediately obvious.
The images are stable and pinpoint whilst the soundstage is the widest and deepest you will hear if the vinyl contains this information.
The bass depth and control is quite astonishing.......but the real highlight I find.....is the complete relaxation that one feels when listening.
These arms allow one to forget entirely about the electro-mechanical gymnastics involved in the execution of musical extraction and completely immerse oneself in the music.
You will find it difficult to stop dragging out long forgotten records and re-discovering.
And the DaVinci and Phantom II arms?...........they're gone :-) |
BTW nobody uses those old and heavy headshells. The most of us use the Orsonic , preferably the AV-101 b or s. Dear Nikola, Where do you get these 'facts'? I love the FR3 headshell for my FR-64s and 66s arms. Even the FR5 headshell is a fine one. The Orsonic AV-101b I found to be the worst headshell I've heard and I quickly sold it. For every genuine Orsonic headshell on the market......there appear to be 75 bad Chinese copies? An FR3 headshell can be had for $180 and an FR5 ....slightly less. Also a good match for the FR tonearms.....if one wishes to lower the effective mass......are the Yamamoto wood shells and the Ortofon 8000 wood headshell.....both of which are cheaper than the FR shells. |
Dear Nikola,
You're right to place your faith in the Bavarian Brigade rather a Slavic brother who is a poor immigrant living in a developing country like Australia.
Is that why you also prefer LOMCs to MMs?
I thought you believed a certain Mexican oracle was "always right" in his ranking of cartridges?
In any case.......my distortions are better than yours :-)
Regards |
All FR-66s arms originally came with the B-60 VTA Base which allows adjustment 'on the fly'.
If your arm is without it.......the previous owner has kept it or sold it separately?
An original B-60 Base is almost unobtainable......but there are a few copies on the market for approx $300? |
Dear Raul,
There are dozens of posts from you extolling the advantages of Lofgren A (Baerwald) over Stevenson, and your understanding of the distortions of each geometry is obviously flawed.
It just reinforces the fact that you can never be trusted or believed?
Oh.......and do I read it correctly?.....I was right about the 15mm overhang and you were wrong?
Nothing new about that.......... |
Dover,
Please see the VE Calculator Chart in my Post above.
Raul is not disputing the figure. His 0.3mm difference is due to his assumption of Stevensen geometry.
You've got it arse about :-) |
Suteetat,
Yes....the UNI-Protractor is made and sold by Dertonarm who also has made a range of adjustable headshells which are receiving positive reviews....and has also just launched a new tonearm which debuted in the HighEnd Show at Munich.
Dertonarm (Daniel) knows more about the FR range of tonearms than anyone else I know.....unlike a Mexican peppercorn who has never owned an FR-66s....just look at his Systems Page where every tonearm he has owned is listed....incl the FR-64s?
This Mexican wannabe also was designing a new tonearm but where is it?
There are some people in Audio who have the knowledge and ability to design and produce.
Then there are the Pretenders who are full of hot air.
When the chips are down.....all they can do is....blow. |
As Audiogon has deleted the infamous Thread about Tonearm Geometry where Raul's ignorance was finally revealed to all......here is another Thread where Dertonarm exposes the Mexican again and again..... AGONBLACK KNIGHT |
Endless repetition indeed Nikola.
The horror.........oh the horror..... |
If you use the 231.5mm S to P distance for the FR-64s.......you will not be able to interchange headshells onto the FR-66s which is best set at 295mm.
I prefer to set my FR-64s at the FR recommended 230mm S to P to match the 295mm of the FR-66s.
And yes......I have listened to the differences between the 230mm distance and the 231.5mm.........
However I don't think this will solve the problems you have described Suteetat?
I have plenty of 'play' distance for all headshells I have tried on both my FR arms to align for ALL the known geometries.
Something appears amiss in your story? |
Yes.....centre of Tower is Pivot point.
I do have the Dyna XV-1s which is currently mounted to one of my FR-66s arms..........but I also have 38 other cartridges ready mounted in their own headshells and all of them have been played on the FR-64s as well as the FR-66s.
In fact......with ALL my cartridges......I set them up on one of my FR-66s arms (which I can do very accurately using Dertonarm's UNI-Protractor).....and then simply swap them between 4 of my other arms (the Copperhead has no headshell and the SAEC WE-8000 S/T has its off-set angle built into the headshell).
My point being Suteetat......that I have had no mounting problem with over 40 cartridges in either FR arms......and I even had an Orsonic headshell which caused no problems?
Perhaps the Airtight is a 1 in 50 cartridge?........but something is certainly untoward in your experience? |
Dover,
Enlighten me as to where you see me "suggesting" anything other than mounting the FR-64s at 230mm as recommended by Fidelity Research which should give the recommended overhang using the geometry selected by them.
Your preferred mounting distance of 231 will either give a different overhang or different geometry?
Your choice.....no problems. |
Raul,
Get off the Sangria and show me where I said anything like what you are talking about?
Is this figment of your imagination the same as the one about you owning and selling an FR-66s and owning a Signet TK-7LCa and having a Victor TT-81 and TT-101 beside your TT-71 in your system?
If I want your help......I'll ask for it. |
Sorry guys,
I had forgotten that the time Lew refers to when I did indeed seek to interchange headshells between my two FR-66s arms, the FR-64s arm and the Micro Seiki MA-505s which was nearly two years ago I think?.....
The MA-505s was no problem because it's overhang is the same as the FR-66s.....however the FR-64s has an overhang of 12mm as opposed to the 15mm for the others.
So to correct for that......I reset my P to S to 233mm for the 64s.
And yes......I know that the Av and Max distortion levels go up as a result.
I think now that I will select about 5 or 6 cartridges and specifically align them for the FR-64s set at 231.5mm.
I've had to do that already for the SAEC WE-8000/ST so we shall see......?
I also miscalculated my cartridge storage facilities.......
The total is 38......not 48 :-) |
Dear Raul, CALCULATORUsing the Vinyl Engine Calculator where you plug in the parameters (Eff Length, Off-set angle and Original Overhang) and then choose the new Overhang desired.........it calculates the NEW Pivot to Spindle distance and gives you all the new Null Points and consequent geometry as well as the new distortion figures. As the stated Overhang for the FR-64s arm is 15mm......I don't know from whence your 14.7mm derives? Perhaps you can communicate with Vinyl Engine and let me know the outcome so that I can clarify my understanding? As for the MA-505s which has the same Overhang as the FR-66s.....and as far as I am aware.....there is no Off-set Angle built into the straight headshells (this is part of the S or P shaped tonearm itself).......can you please explain exactly how to use the Calculator as I must surely be missing something? So, please don't delete my posts it is clear that you are hearing " different " things wrong or non-correct " things ", again way higher distortions. As the "distortions you are listening to are infinitely greater than the zero distortions of a linear tracking arm.......how do you decide the limit of what distortions are allowable for the rest of us.....and at which point they are audible? |
Suteetat,
In re-setting the FR-64s at a P to S distance of 231.5mm.......I discovered one cartridge/headshell combination which locates the screws at the furthest point of the headshell.
The Signet TK-7SU in the Yamamoto HS-1As wood shell is the only combination exhibiting this structure.
At this furthest point......it has perfect 'Dertonarm' geometry :-) |
Lew, Of course some people prefer Stevenson alignment for various reasons.....however the vast majority of audiophiles are using Lofgren A(Baerwald) because of the lower overall distortions. Stevenson - a variation on Löfgren geometry optimized for low distortion at the inner groove at the expense of increased distortion elsewhere. The Vinyl Engine Calculator is designed for this most popular (and lower distortion producing) geometry although they do have calculators for the others if you so desire? The real point of all this is that Raul selected the Stevenson alignment (which he doesn't use himself)........to prove that my 233mm P to S distance is 0.3mm out? Instead of having to concur that I have the tonearm set up correctly for interchangeability of headshells (according to Baerwald)........he will grasp at the ridiculous to avoid admitting defeat? It demonstrates the almost psychotic paranoia which governs his behaviour. If you remember about 2 or 3 years ago.....there was an entire Thread here on Audiogon which discussed all the Pros and Cons of the various geometries.....and even personalised geometries which one can adapt for certain requirements? Dertonearm provided sufficient evidence in long and protracted postings.....which demonstrated the sheer lack of credibility and understanding that Raul has about this whole subject. I hope that Thread is still in the Archives but I doubt it as Raul became more and more belligerent and personal....which is his Modus Operandi whenever cornered? |
For the FR-66s....Dertonarm is happy with the 295mm P2S distance.
For the 231.5mm P2S distance on the FR-64s.....be sure to amend the Overhang to 14.5mm for it to follow Dertonarm's geometry?
You cannot use any regular protractor for this....but the old Feikert Universal had an Overhang measuring scale. |
That's interesting information Nikola.....about the FR-7 cartridges.
Of course......if you one were to purchase Dietrich's new Axiom tonearm........one would be able....for the first time.....to adjust the Overhang for its correct geometry.
Although I have always liked you my Slavic friend.......I have never before appreciated your deductive mind?
The invisible Guliermo who is really the 'Technical Brain' behind the Essential Phono/Line Preamp and also the (in)famous tonearm and cartridge which are now......"not for sale".......?
Has there been a divorce with his erstwhile partner Raul?
The rumour mill is churning.......... |
I know this Thread is about the FR-66s, but the FR-64s was introduced into the discussion and because its geometry is different to that of the FR-66s......I feel it needs some elaboration:-
Recommended for FR64s: 231.5 mm P2S, 14.5 mm overhang and 20.5° off-set angle.
This will give a very good tangential curve with very low maximum as well as very low average distortion figures in the last 2/3 of the record. For the last 66% of the groove this tangential curve outperforms Baerwald and Loefgren in any version by a very good margin.
With this geometry, the FR64s' tangential curve becomes very similar to the FR66s' original tangential curve.
This tangential curve honors the FR64s' original geometry - i.e. there is no additional breakdown-torque implied. |
Suteetat,
I know it sounds very complex and most users do not really get involved with Overhangs and Off-Set Angles.
To make it easier for you....I think you can go in any of three ways:-
1. Use the FR recommended P2S Distances for both FR-64 and 66 arms and set the geometry for Baerwald according to any accurate devices you have.
2. Use a device like the Universal Feikert Protractor to set both the P2S Distance and Overhang of each arm. This is all you need to do to have the correct geometry.
3. Purchase the UniTractor from Dertonarm which will come with the correct Templates for both arms.....and any other arms you may have or may buy in the future. |
Dear Nicola,
I have no wish to offend a man with "simple testes".......but by having a Mint tractor specially made for your FR-64s at 231.5mm P2S distance.......you are merely having a Baerwald geometry transcribed for the new distance.
You are not having the Dertonarm geometry with its 14.5mm Overhang and 20.5 Offset angle because Yip makes his Mint Tractor to Baerwald unless specifically ordered NOT to?
I thought you had Dertonarm's UNItractor with his Template for the FR-64s at 231.5mm?
If so........all you need to do is align to this to achieve the correct Overhang and Off-Set angle for the new geometry.
And after listening to the difference for a few days........your testes may become more cultured?
Regards |
Dazzdax,
Have you checked the alignment with a good Protractor or Universal Template like the Feikert?
If it is easy for you to adjust the Pivot to Spindle distance of the tonearm....just do it so it aligns with the your preferred geometry (Baerwald, Lofgren, Stevenson).
Dertonarm has his own geometry which works very well for his UNIprotractor.
Just ensure that the off-set angle is OK at the Null Points and you should be fine. |
I think Bill's method is the only rational one for use with fixed headshell cartridges like the SPUs and FR-7 types.
Yes.....the off-set angles may be slightly different to the prescribed ones at the null points......but only by 1 or 2 degrees in most cases?
If you can align your styli to all be 'visually' within these limits......I'd suggest you're doing alright?
That's why I recommended to Chris to check the geometry of the stylus at the null points after adjusting the arm to follow a preferred arc geometry as Bill does.
John appears to be offering no solution at all......and if he thinks the UNI-protractor uses Baerwald alignment.....I believe he is mistaken?
Dertonarm has developed his own alignment called UNI-Din which places the null points differently to the others.
He also recommends moving the FR-64s tonearm to a S to P distance of 231.5mm rather than the recommended 230mm.
As he is a rather renowned fan of the FR-7 series of cartridges.......I can't imagine him sabotaging these cartridges with damagingly incorrect off-set angles? |
John, If one were to do the calculations as you suggest......with and SPU or FR-7 type of fixed headshell......surely the Off-Set angle cannot be changed? Nor can the Overhang or Effective length. The only parameter able to be changed is the Pivot to Spindle distance? To calculate the new P to S....one needs to know accurately (to within 0.1mm) the 'actual' Overhang Distance. To do this with a 'J' shaped tonearm like the FR-66s.....one needs to set up the arm accurately to the recommended P to S Distance (295mm) and then measure the stylus point Overhang? One would imagine that the FR-7 series (because they are made by the same manufacturer as the tonearm) would be spot-on the specified 12mm? The problem that Jazzdax poses The length of the SPU is 52 mm instead of the 50 mm recommended by Ikeda. does not necessarily indicate a 2mm difference in stylus Overhang? One would need to accurately measure this as I describe..... before plugging those figures into the Vinyl Engine Calculator to ascertain the new P to S distance and the consequent new Null Points with the accompanying distortion figures. There must be a way....but for the life of me I can't see a way to accurately measure this Overhang to within 0.1mm? |
Thuchan has a fine collection of SPU cartridges.
I suspect he uses his original Ortofon tonearm to run them?.........but I wonder how he sets their geometry and whether he has mounted them in the FR-66s? |
