I'm one of the few people online who actually tries things and reports my findings accurately. I do understand that most don't actually want to read critical information about a product, they just want to have their bias confirmed. I've learned that what I do is not really welcome on the Internet and so I've been banned from most forums, most recently ASR which in particular is a vile, toxic cult. |
In a few more days the Weiss opamps will be at 200 hours and ready for evaluation. Also I have the amp running through a 500 watt balanced isolation transformer along with the DAC and pre; I wonder if there could be any current starvation going here. |
In regards to the Naim, I have a Chinese clone of the NAP200. It doesn't sound as good as I recalled hearing from a dealer but that was a few years ago...and might have been one of the integrated now that I think of it...anyway I haven't tested that against the VTV yet. In fact the Purifi is due for another listen. |
I bought it without the custom input board. It uses the standard Purifi board's input and buffer, which apparently isn't bad. I didn't bother spending a bunch on custom input boards and buffers because I figured this will at least give me a fundamental grasp of the sound. Custom buffers shouldn't make or break the sound, should they? |
Thank you for the information. I actually had a Freya lying around that has 75 Ohms on the SE output. I tried it out and I really didn’t notice a difference...noisy, more blurred, but that’s the Freya’s fault. In terms of dynamics I didn’t really notice any difference.
So how long does it take for burning in?
It’s plugged in to a Furutech outlet using a LessLoss level 1 cable (the older version, not the C-Marc) and LessLoss firewall. Pre and DAC are on the same outlet going through a balanced isolation transformer from AliExpress. There shouldn’t be any current-limiting effects going on. The Stratos doesn’t have this problem.
I actually have two Stratos amps. The first is an upgraded Stratos with the extra caps. The second is an early model back when they were ODL. Same circuit but the newer one has an encapsulated toroidal, custom Odyssey caps and different PCB and I think different wires. I broke it and have been trying to fix it, so far without much luck. While I was trying to fix it I got the used ODL as a filler. Frankly, the ODL sounds significantly worse -- not terrible, but definitely a step down from the newer / upgraded Stratos. After day 1 of the VTV, it actually sounds a lot like the ODL, except more congested. That is surprising to me. If nothing else I would have expected super high class D damping power to have an obvious effect. The higher current should have had a more obvious effect...unless real-world current delivery under load isn’t good. I do understand that it needs to burn in, but this result is different compared my expectations built from experiences with other class D. It certainly sounds like trash compared to a NC1200-based amp I heard at AXPONA(?) a few years back. |
So, the question is, does this VTV really represent a baseline of what the latest class D can do? The LKV seems interesting but for that money you could get a used Mark Levinson 585, will this really compete? Also in that price range is the big Cherry amp with a beefy linear power supply. Frankly this price point seems way too high. If they can compete with good A or A/B designs at the same price point that would be one thing. But the Stratos is by no means a pinnacle amp, not even close. If the VTV can at least compete with the Stratos which I bought used for $800 shipped than I may switch over to VTV or something similar, perhaps get @ricevs to mod it, and then see where the upgrade road takes me from there.
The other factor is there can't be listening fatigue. That's something I can only judge with long-term listening. I don't care how impressive the sound is technically, if its fatiguing than it's TRASH even if it costs $1.50. |
So, burn-in continues. There's a troublesome mid-range artifact, a harshness / blurriness that shows up in voices with "hot" recordings. Also the image seems to project especially high, but I'm not sure if that's the amp or something with the speakers because I did move them yesterday. If this midrange issue doesn't fix itself with continued burn-in then it'll have to go back as I know this will kill it for me, it's very uneuphonic. Maybe a custom input buffer option fixes it if this continues to be a problem, we'll see. |
I'll look around the local dealers to see if they have a SE-R1 for audition.
I really am giving class D a lot of chances. Maybe I really want to believe in the promise of high-quality audio in a small and cheap package. But I didn't go into this with my mind made up, I was successfully talked into trying it by you guys (and others). I really have to question though what are some of you guys' standards in audio. It's still burning in so we'll see. I hope this mid range mess sorts itself out. |
Okay so, update on the VTV.
The horrible midrange seems to have mostly solved itself. That's good. There is still a smearing / lack of resolution when things get busy. Midrange sounds -- instruments, voices -- still don't sound really convincing. Another troublesome aspect is that I don't seem particularly interested in long listening sessions. Lack of engagement. This could be a sign of a general lack of euphony which is the kiss of death of anything in my system.
Imaging and soundstage has improved since the early days, but it's still not really convincing.
Bass however has improved to the point that I'd usually associate with class D. Dynamics have also improved to a level I'd call satisfactory.
Next step I think I'll contact VTV and ask about what changes the input board and buffer options may have. Perhaps a double power supply model will help. If some combination can help midrange I may try that. |
Because I’m not a cultist who’s made up my mind forever. It’s not a religion to me. If someone with experiences I don’t have relates those experiences the only way I’ll know for sure is to try it myself. It IS true that some high-end manufacturers are making class D amps, so MAYBE there’s something to them afterall. Maybe all my experiences up until now didn’t cover what class D is capable of. That’s why I’m doing this.
Now, are YOU willing to admit that, perhaps, class D is inherently flawed and that is the reason why you’re not motivated to listen to your class D system? Would you be willing to try a good linear amp to find out? |
I communicated with the owner of VTV about what I've experienced so far and about the upgrade options. He said that he hasn't experienced what I have -- that tells me that his standards for audio quality may be lower than mine. He did mention that the tubed input board makes a big difference to sound stage and so can different opamp options. It seems that the various discrete opamps are more about coloration / tone, is that true? The worst problems I described at the start of this evaluation have mostly solved themselves with burn-in. Improved dynamics and soundstage won't make or break the sound, but the midrange is problematic. What do I mean by this?
Take a piano or a horn. Does it sound like an acoustic piano or could you mistake it for a synth? Does a horn sound like a believable, real horn? Would the better opamps fix this? Why does the standard Purifi opamp which is supposedly very low distortion fail to handle this? The Odyssey I'm comparing this to is by no means an especially high-end amp. It has a lot of current delivery and bandwidth, uses the good Symphonic Line parts, but otherwise appears to be pretty simple design. I busted the newer Stratos even further trying to fix it, now one channel doesn't work at all. The old Stratos I have is too inferior. I went and bought another used Odessey, a high-end Kismet that's only 3 years old. This should out-perform my Stratos and it'll be interesting to compare it with the VTV.
So how bad IS the standard Purifi in the VTV? Will the upgraded input board and discrete opamps move it to another level? Obviously the manufacturer won't say "yeah the base model sucks". |
Another interesting finding. I decided to swap out my reference power delivery to the amp: LessLoss level 1 power filtering cable + Firewall 64x from a Furutech GTX-D(r) NCF outlet to a standard black 14-guage power chord from a standard outlet. The difference on one test track was...almost nothing. Maybe the it was a touch muted / muffled on the standard cable, but nothing you couldn't chalk up to audio memory effects. This hasn't been my experience with my linear amps. I wonder if the switching power supply is just agnostic to mains quality -- or it's already so messed up the mains quality won't make a difference? |
Okay...I'm done with this amp. I tried listening to King Crimson's Larks' Tongues in Aspic, and right on the first track the part with the rattler/shaker percussion thing...it doesn't sound like an actual instrument but like a diffuse low-resolution jumble of tones, like the percussions were blurred beyond recognition. It's been plenty burned in at this point. Earlier I had emailed VTV asking about this poor midrange performance and the response basically said he hasn't experienced that problem.
I mean...look. If you don't think THAT'S a problem, if THAT sounds fine to you, then I have no business considering this amp any further...right? If it was "oh yes this or that option improves things" than okay maybe it would be still worth considering. New opamps aren't going to fix it, there's no reason to believe they will. Besides this...the almost complete lack of engagement and boredom with the sound isn't going away. It's not about harmonics, I think the Purifi does a "good" job with returning the normal even order harmonic information you'd expect to hear. Is it the trashy midrange which is doing this and my mind is simply rejecting it? Class D distortion?
I'm told that this isn't a real trial because...I'm not using the little custom input board with discrete opamp? Really? Will that REALLY have such a major impact on the sound to transform it from awful to good? Why would Purifi release a bad-sounding input stage? Are they deaf? I think I've given it an ample chance. Any disagreement? |
It's a little surprising that Purifi would release a compromised product to the public to represent their brand. I guess I'll look into a input upgrade then. It's just there's no way anyone with any kind of good amp experience would think this is fine, forget about great. |
I didn't use the King Crimson as the final arbiter, it's just that when I heard the VTV blur the chime percussions into a mess I got angry and decided I was done. I'll look into this Tony Minasian.
But, once again, I've been talked into trying something. I ordered a pair of input boards from VTV with Sparkos opamps. I do appreciate the speed of VTV's responses. If the defeault Hypex board is really that compromised I thought I should give it a fair shake in a configuration which is it supposed to use. I don't get why Purifi thought this thing sounded good enough to release to the public but...oh well. They're coming. |
@djones I'd definitely be willing to do a blind test, but understand that's a pretty tall order when we're talking about comparing amps. In reality your requirement for blind testing is just a roadblock to protect egos and confirm biases. Listening impressions are fake and the correct method of conducting them are too difficult to achieve in everyday life, so you can remain comfortable in willful ignorance.
For example, in my ASR thread about Purifi, I noted that my reference mains cable chain had no effect. Responders agreed with this finding. Strange, shouldn't this sighted, unscientific listening impression also be invalid? How do I know there isn't an difference between mains cables? Maybe the lack of difference is just in my head, ie, I expected to change so I heard none? Funny. Weird. How does the requirement for blind testing disappear when the results conform with negative expectations? Of course because the responders just want to have their biases confirmed, the requirement for blind testing, ABX, etc, is just a tool to support the bias. |
I've been told by experienced audiophiles here and elsewhere that the default Hypex board is junk, so in order to give it a fair shake I ordered a set of custom ones from VTV. I think it's pretty obvious I'm not doing this just to make you feel bad about your support of class D / Purifi. I got the cheapest base unit to begin with because I figured there wouldn't be a substantial difference and at least I'd get a baseline grasp of the sound. I'm told that's not the case and the default configuration is compromised. Listening to the awful midrange I can see that there MAY be truth to that statement. Also it might be just that the artifacts are most noticeable in the midrange and that it's impacting the whole audio band. If these custom boards and opamps fix the issue and elevates the sound, I will faithfully report it. If it doesn't, then back it goes. |
If I report that the Purifi is, in fact, junk -- for midrange problems or just as overall lack of engagement (the real reason why you sold the Peachtree probably) would that influence your decision? My guess is -- almost certainly not. In my experience people just want to have their bias confirmed. If it's just one or two voices critical about the product, it doesn't matter if they're the honest ones with the discernment that should be listened to and not the masses of the echo-chamber who can only compare it with other bad-sounding gear. What matters is that the echo chamber tells you want you want to hear. |
Well, I installed the VTV input boards and Sparkos opamps today. I won’t post immediate findings because those are always defunct within a day or two so I’ll let it burn in for the time being. |
@clustrocasual That's very interesting. If the Weiss is that good perhaps I'll hold off on returning it. How did you replace the cabling? Including the Molex connector cables? |
After well over 200 hours of burn-in of the Weiss opamps I did my first focused listening test. The low-quality / distorted / unnatural midrange has come back. I could have sworn that issue was largely resolved by the Sparkos, but maybe I was misremembering it or I wasn't paying attention to midrange quality? Anyway it's pretty bad. Sounds sort of metallic, "buzz-y", which is why I want to call it a distorted sound. I switched to a $300 NAP200 clone just to make sure it wasn't something else in my chain -- nope, good quality midrange.
I HAVE to ask those of you who own this amp if you really can't hear this low-quality midrange? It's pretty obvious in vocals and horns. |
