Psvane Teflon capacitors real or fakes?


These are great looking capacitors and supposed to be competing against the Audience, Rel, V-Cap, and Sonicap Teflon capacitors. A couple of my tweaky friends who have no end to new capacitors gave them a try and had one quit after a month or so, and with the wire cut off, no return possible. So they cut it open, yes they are curious, and according to them, the guts looked like mylar, measured like mylar??? Could these not be Teflon caps after all??? I open this for discussion with some of the tweaky electonic minds out there to get to the bottom of this. If they are not genuine teflon, I would not want fellow audiophiles to get ripped by another false claim. But to be fair, real verifiable data should be submitted here, no guesswork. I trust my friends, but I did not do the test, so I open it to other philes. Hey, I like a great deal too, but if it is not as advertised, I get pissed too. Take a look fellow philes, and lets solve the mystery....Jallen
jallen

Showing 5 responses by grantfidelity

Where did your friends buy the Psvane caps? Can you post their pictures?

I have just cut open one cap from our stock and these are the pictures - I am no plastic expert but the film does look like teflon, to my eyes.

I put the pictures out for everyone to see, maybe some plastic expert can share some opinion.

How did your friend(s) measure the film coming to a conclusion 'measured like mylar'?

We have been dealing with the people at Psvane Audio for tubes and caps for years. I met the owners and it has never come across my mind even remotely that they could outright lie. Our tube amp tech have these installed into 845 amps and have been running it over 6 months with no problem at all.

If a seller refuse to take return of caps with broken lead, that's understandable. Failed in 30 days? That should be covered by warranty.
Not sure how to post pictures in the forum - but here are the links of the pictures posted to our website.

http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Psvane-Copper-Foil-Teflon-Film-Caps-0-47uF-600V-pair.html

click on image to enlarge.

I have seen many many knock-off products in China including Solen caps - but if someone actually counterfeit Chinese caps now, high end audio is about to become a mine field :)

Rachel @ Grant Fidelity
Here is the official answer:

China has been on holidays so I finally got hold of the technical lead person for these caps. Some clarification from Psvane Audio:

1. The Psvane caps were NOT designed to copy V-Cap. Instead, it's a high end cap designed for final sound with materials selected for sound. Below are the materials used in making the Psvane caps:

Copper foil - as seen from pictures provided by Jallen of V-Cap, the pure copper used by V-cap is of darker color as seen in high purity copper. Psvane caps use high conductivity Beryllium Copper instead.

Teflon film - this is where the clarification is much needed as raised by Jallen in the first post. Psvane caps use teflon shield for the leads, and the highest grade Polyester (BoPET) film from Dupont as insulation film. There may be future high end caps from Psvane Audio made with pure teflon films but these are still in lab design and testing stage. No sure release date yet because the final high end sound is what Psvane Audio is after, not the teflon insulation film. Design might be changed when final product is released and they will not release further details.

Given the above factory clarification, Grant Fidelity has corrected our website product listing by dropping 'teflon' from the description to avoid misleading customers.

The Psvane caps are still called 'Teflon caps' in the Chinese market and due to interpretation in Chinese language, it doesn't appear that local consumers in China are raising questions like we do in the west. However, Grant Fidelity is committed to provide Chinese hi-fi products with transparency and top service, we will refer the Psvane caps as 'Psvane copper foil caps' in all our publications.

As stated by Psvane Audio: the Psvane caps were not designed to copy V-cap; instead they were designed to go after the same high end market that V-Cap is occupying. Grant Fidelity believes that referring Psvane caps as 'Teflon caps' (as printed on the caps) has caused confusion among consumers hence some came to the conclusion that Psvane caps are fakes. There is merit to such a statement given the above circumstance.

However, Grant Fidelity has always sourced high end Chinese audio products for the sound quality - same sourcing criteria apply to our decision of taking on the Psvane caps in the first place. We carry Psvane caps for its sound, for its reliability and for what it can do for hi-fi sound in its correct application in electronics components. With correction of the production description, Grant Fidelity will continue carry the Psvane caps under the name of 'Psvane Copper Foil Caps' at the same price. All products from Grant Fidelity have always been priced according to its purchase cost and resell directly to consumers without retail mark-up.

In our opinion, the error in product description doesn't undergrade or undermine the sound quality of these caps and it doesn't change the test results that were published on our product listing page since day one by a high end audio manufacturer.

Psvane Caps are not fake V-Caps. It is simply another creation from the Chinese Hi-Fi industry by using different materials to deliver great sound as a final product. We apologize if our previous product description has caused confusion.

In terms of reliability issue reported by some buyers - Grant Fidelity cannot comment directly on the specific case because the caps were not purchased from Grant Fidelity. However, as myself has been in the product sourcing industry for nearly 20 years dealing with Chinese manufacturers, I can say that there exist the possibility that counterfeit caps could become available from China with the increasing popularity of Psvane caps in the Asian market. Using same packaging but different internal materials to make product bearing the same brand is a very common way of counterfeiting in China. Psvane Audio also commented that they typically select the best quality for their international clients, similar as on their vacuum tubes, and they were very surprised by the appear-to-be-high frequency of failed caps incidence reported on this forum. Grant Fidelity has never ever imported a single product through a middleman / broker in Hong Kong or China (as far as we know, some western businesses do purchase Chinese hi-fi products through English speaking Chinese brokers, but Grant Fidelity didn't, doesn't and never will.) We do not leave any chance for a product to be mixed with counterfeits. Grant Fidelity source directly from the manufacturer and only use a closely related party "Audio For Less' in Hong Kong which we trust 100% for shipping and logistics. Grant Fidelity do not resell caps or vacuum tubes to any other re-sellers (including the one Jallen purchased his caps from) so that our reputation will be guarded closely. We only provide caps and tubes to amplifier manufacturers to include in their final products for sale, but not sold separately.

It's not recent news that high end western brand audio accessories are being sold in China by unethical dealers who blend real ones with counterfeit together for sale. I have personally seen several cable brands and caps suffered from such loss. It's not a surprise such a counterfeit practice has spread to Chinese high end brands as well.

Grant Fidelity believes in creating value for end users by reducing distribution layers - adding another re-seller in the chain isn't the business model we are participating. From all our Psvane caps sales that we sold directly to end users, we have never had a consumer reported a failed cap. In the unlikely event if a cap does fail within warranty, we will certainly provide replacement without exception. In fact, we have started our amplifier factory order with these Psvane caps pre-installed on certain models. Amp factory has reported that all 160 caps delivered in the first batch all have past examination with flying color.

To find out how these Psvane caps sound (that's what really matters, not the plastic sheet used between the conductors, isn't?), Grant Fidelity will now provide 30 day return privilege on Psvane cap order from now until May 1st, 2012. As always, free shipping is provided worldwide. If you are not happy with the sound, just write us for return instructions then mail it back to us for refund(note the caps must not be damaged on the leads or cosmetically). That is how confident we are with the sound.

We hope the above has above has clarified the debate. I won't comment on the pictures provided by Jallen for the Psvane caps since those caps were not from us. Our cap internal pictures are posted on Grant Fidelity website product page (0.47uF/600V) for everyone to view in detail.

Thanks for reading and happy listening.

Rachel @ Grant Fidelity
To answer Jallen: if you read my answer line by line: it states clearly that "Psvane caps use teflon shield for the leads, and the highest grade Polyester (BoPET) film from Dupont as insulation film."

Not sure what you mean by 'Why not at this time just tell us that the dielectric is BoPet/Polyester Film".

Product information disclosure is up to the manufacturer and when different languages are involved, communication has extra barrier. I do not believe Psvane Audio intentionally mislead anyone and we as re-seller will provide as much information as we can and respond to inquiries as fast as we can. I haven't seen other re-seller to put up their answers yet - I look forward to reading their stories.

to answer Magfan: If your browser turn language to French, just clear your browser cookies from Grant Fidelity website. We have no idea how this happens with Google - our own computer sometimes turn to French too and there are no cookies on our site for identifying language. We are in Alberta Canada and none of us here speaks French. Sorry about it but all we can say it's a tech glitch that I have no knowledge to fix except delete site cookies when language changes.

Happy listening.
Rachel @ Grant Fidelity
To answer to Chris from VH Audio:

1. The misunderstanding / error (or whatever you call it) of Teflon film or Teflon shielded leads on Psvane caps has been clarified in my previous post based on the answer I received from Psvane Audio. Whether the manufacturer calls their products Polyester cap is not up to me or you to police. You may direct your opinion to Psvane Audio directly. We simply describe a product based on information provided by manufacturer and if an error is identified, we stand up and correct it immediately.

2. I am not a technical expert and I fully respect your expertise in the industry. However, saying 'downplay' of our evaluation of the product as a whole, rather than on one specific material isn't very fair. I have no intention of downplay importance of any material used in a product - I simply stressed my opinion / preference of evaluating a product as a whole. If you don't agree with my opinion, that is perfectly fine - this industry is full of debate of what is better or what's best. I welcome such debate, but I don't welcome my statement of opinion being labelled as 'downplay', simply because your V-cap uses Teflon and you have great success with it.

3. "despite my numerous e-mail requests made (since September, 2011) for Grant and Psvane to cease and desist..."

Your above statement is simply NOT true. Your first and only email to Grant Fidelity raising trademark issue was dated Sept 20th, 2011 and I personally responded to you on the very same day, and our website removed the questioned content on the very same day. I don't know why you would say 'numerous email requests' because we have kept your email for record and there is only one of such email.

How many emails you have sent to Psvane Audio are not my business and I cannot speak on behalf of them or verify. However, please keep your public statement precise and accurate since you are pretty clear on accuracy of product information provided to public - other information should be treated exactly the same way. Your indication of sending 'numerous emails to Grant Fidelity' is damaging our public image, that's the very least to say.

I clearly recall that in Sept 2011 after receiving your email, we checked V-Cap site for 'TM' mark on CuTF and it was not to be seen then. Despite of such, we removed the wording from our site as at least industry courtesy.

4. The Psvane / Treasure scenario should be presented to Psvane Audio directly - apparently you have sent 'numerous emails' to them and wouldn't mind to send another. Grant Fidelity is a re-seller of products bearing Psvane brand; we are not their agent or representative on legal matter. Directing the case to Grant Fidelity in public will not help you to give Psvane Audio a lecture on trademark - I am not a messenger in this matter.

5. We both are in commercial business in the same industry - public forum may not be the perfect place conduct B2B communication, especially when potential trademark of a few parties is involved. If you have any further issues that you think Grant Fidelity should address, please contact me directly.

Rachel @ Grant Fidelity