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Proud Harbeth p3esr owner - need help tweaking/troubleshooting

Due to the pandemic I catch myself spending more time in my outdoor office space - small 14.5x7.5 feet room with glass windows on two adjacent walls - where the speaker are. It's got wood floors and a 7.5 feet ceiling. The other half has a large desk and a bookshelf. Since it's my private space I have decided to build 'my dream' audio system - different from my main listening room/home theater. I listen to all genres of music from 80's and 90's pop, Folk, Jazz, Electronic, Classic Rock and Latin. No hard Rock or headbangers music.

In my mid-40's and enjoying the audio hobby for decades now, I like my music warm, with non-fatigue listening for hours, where frequency tones are balanced, yet detailed without the grain and glare of vocal peaks or highs, yet presenting instrument separation. I want to enjoy the music. I took the leap, and purchased a pair of Harbeth p3esr. Also, purchased Croft Phone Integrated amplifier to pair with the speakers. Had a Metrum Onyx DAC at home already hooked to my Roon core. Using Morrow Audio MA1 RCA interconnects that were laying around, with Belden speaker wires also on hand. Speakers are on heavy 26 inch stands.

I have around 60 hours on the Croft integrated and Harbeth p3esr so far, but have not found the audio nirvana moment yet. I find the music at times (on certain songs) harsh. It's usually when multiple instruments are played together with sharp pitched vocals. Don't get me wrong - Emma Guzman - Woman the instrument separation and vocals are dreamy, The Game of Love by Daft Punk, the robotic vocals are life like with emotions - but 40 seconds into Wrong Girl by Lindsay Ell and you'll hear her vocals peak and want to run to lower the Croft integrated manual volume knob towards to noon mark (starting point). 

Speaking of which, the Croft Phono Integrated, being a superb hybrid amp, has a lot of gain and is immediate sounding. At 1 o'clock position (noon being the starting point), the sound is comfortable listening at 70db. Turning the volume knob to 2 o'clock it's gets loud to 80db + and 3 o'clock is where you want to turn it down. Never distortion - but enough sweetness and finesse to drive the p3. Loud for the room. 

Metrum DAC has a more or less standard line output level of 2V, and the Croft amp has a relatively sensitive input sensitivity of 250mV. An amp of this sensitivity runs the risk of clipping the voltage waveform before the power stage. Maybe alternative amps have a more relaxed gain structure at the input, sensitive to about a whole Volt. The reason why I am rushing for the volume control as the peas get harsh.

How do I make the famous Harbeth p3esr to sing and show it's true colors of warmth, composure, mature sound, astonishing vocal coming from the diaphragm and the details that it's famous for? How do I listen to hours of different genre music without the need to turn the volume low or move my head up to look at the speakers? Is it the high gain/sensitive Croft Integrated amp or is it the bright Morrow Audio RCA interconnect or maybe the speaker wires? Or maybe the whole set up is a dream and an overkill for the room.

Any feedback by the brilliant minds on this forum with years of experience would be greatly appreciated. With warm regards,

ghulamr

Showing 13 responses by ghulamr

ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
@big_greg - what amp are you using? I tested again volume at 3 o'clock position (noon being the starting point) on the Croft. Played Take me to the Pilot by Elton John and I had to leave the room when my ears started to bleed. 

@chayro - what amp are you using? Will look into the  Purist Posiedon speaker cables

@jjss49 - any recommendation on a warm sounding integrated? Rega Bria? or maybe Rogue rogue sphinx. I still can return the amp (under 14 day return). 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
also thinking about purchasing the Rothwell In-Line RCA Attenuators to get 10db reduction in signal.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0803/rothwell.htm
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
@mapman I am planning on taking the setup in my main listening room this weekend. I will hook the p3 to my Sim Audio W5 amp and also my Earthquake (home theater) amp. I have also been eyeing a Rogue Sphinx  and Rega Brio- funny you mention. 

Also, positioning the speakers off-axis is helping a little bit. 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
@ryder  do agree 100% 

@mapman Bel Canto is a class D amp and don't think it has tubes. Besides I am avoiding a one box shop with DAC/digital and analog in one. I am very happy with my stand along Metrum Onyx DAC. 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
it's the line in on the Croft with RCA being fed from Metrum Onyx DAC. Source is a laptop playing Roon connected to the Onyx via shunyata venom usb. 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
standard model.

ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
@mike_in_nc Thanks for the reply. Is that found in the Device Set up under Max Sample Rate (PCM)? Not sure on where the oversampling of data lives on Roon. 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
@chayro - that's going to set me back $2700 for a 30 foot speaker cable wire. More then I can afford at this time 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
@yogiboy Thanks for the videos. Enjoyed them. Primarily the reason for purchasing the p3 is the sound which I love. It's a little unnerving to have a highly sensitive amp paired with it. Right now I am listening to Edith Paif on volume less then half of 1 o'clock position (noon being the starting point) and her voice is piecing. What amp did you pair your p3 with? How about a Sugden A21a or Rega Brio? 

@avanti1960 & @smrex13 - thank you. I think after reading all the opinions I am drawing the conclusion to focus on improving room acoustics and IC and speaker cable. 

I did a little experiment by running a spare 10awg monster cable that I have laying around. What a difference in sound. Stripped off the details and dull sounding. But not harsh though. 

Switched the morrow audio RCA cable with Signal Cable - big difference again. Sound was less detailed and vocals were recessed. 

Moved on to the source (laptop running roon) and switched the USB cable (Shunyata Venom) to a generic brand - that was the biggest dip in sound. 

Lesson leant - this is a very very revealing system. Croft Phono Integrated amp will play what you feed it. And Harbeth is dependent on placement and room acoustics. I am ready to take that challenge and work with his - after all it is my office/den and half the fun is seeing and hearing the improvements as I make these changes. 

I need between 26-28 feet long speaker wire (no way around it) and 1m or less RCA interconnect. I want to bring warmth to the system - yet have the details and vocals that make the Harbeth sing to it's full potential. I am sure that's a tough call specially to stay within budget as most manufacturers like Black Cat, Kimber etc. probably don't make speaker cables this length and if they do - I'll be bankrupt. What are my options on finding speaker cable that length and IC's ($500 - $600) for both?
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
another tweak this morning which helped lower the sensitivity of the amp - using the variable volume at the DSP level in Roon. Now I can adjust how much my DAC is outputting and at 10% reduction have reached a sweet spot on my Croft without compromising sound. One of the advantages of using Roon to leverage the bit perfect volume control floating 64 bits conversion. 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 

Well I have more news for someone interested - today I took my office set up in my main listening room. First hooked up the Harbeth to the Croft integrated using the Metrum Onyx DAC and the same IC and speaker cables - so standard set up as in my office, but a different room. Adjusted the listening to 73 db of music listening to the same track - Milord by Edith Piaf. It sounded how it sounded (comments to follow).


Next I switched amps to my Sim Audio W5 power amp (180W/ch) and lost a lot of dynamics. It was definitely less bright but also more on the dull side missing instrument separation. Sound was more rounded with recessed vocals. So here I am thinking - wow the Croft is leaps ahead. Maybe it the tubes that makes it sing.


Next I hooked up my beefy Earthquake Cinenova amp. It's a monster that weighs 120 pounds with 300w/ch and built like a tank with 4kVA transformer. I was in utter shock to what I heard come out of those Harbeth's. That was a wow moment. The sound was dreamy, rich, warm, with instruments all around me. Lots of details, more fuller with vocals coming from inside the throat and not at all bright. Super musical - unearthing layers of music. I can go on and on and words will not do justice.


So there you have it. I wish I could lift the Earthquake amp and bring it in my office - but it's too big. Know for sure that Harbeth wants more power - bigger transformer, higher damping, regular sensitivity of 1.6V. It needs raw prowess. And I am returning my Croft Integrated amp as I know there is something better out there. Maybe go the route of power amp and pre.

For those who said Harbeths need more power - you all are right. Search begins for a power amp now - one that will easily sit on a shelf in my office. 
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
thank you for all your input. 

I tell you this hobby take a lot of time and $$ - but it's very gratifying. Wrote to Glenn Croft and he recommended ' The absolute phase will need to be corrected by reversing the speaker leads'. 

I did that by switching the speaker terminals red to negative and black to positive and what big difference that made. I need to give this change a couple of days and do A/B tests but right off the bat listening to Abdullah Ibrahim on piano before the change some of the low notes a# on piano sounded too sharp and unbearable and after the switch it became a lot mellower and precise. 

Don't understand the reasoning behind it - but it an improvement. Will listen more....
ghulamr's avatar
ghulamr OP
104 posts
 
Hi all, 

a bit of an update. It's been 13 days since I have owned the Croft Integrated and maybe I have put in around 160+ hour on it. The sound has changed drastically from when I first bought the amp. The sudden change I noticed yesterday, and since then have played around 8 hours to make sure it's not something I am imagining. It's a lot warmer, relaxed, fuller, sweeter with all the details and vocals that really bring out the best in the Harbeth p3. Did I mention relaxed and composed. 

First I thought there is some other setting in Roon or somewhere else that is causing the change in sound. It's night and day difference. To test I played a few tracks that had those tonal peaks that were unbearable before and now they sound completely relaxed and fuller. Low volume setting that I listen on this amp is fantastic. I am also getting adjusted to the high gain setting as I think turning the volume slightly up is less harsh now. Keep in mind this amp would struggle in a large party room setting - I don't think that's what it's designed for. Croft Integrated is a keeper. 

Glad I did not jump on changing the interconnects and speaker cable and let the amp fully burn in. Now I can me more accurate in how I want to further tune the sound and maybe look at cables that provide more air and detail - open up the sound a bit. Need 30 feet of cable run, as the amp and DAC will sit behind my desk with speakers in front. Hopefully I can find a decent speaker cable without breaking the bank. Maybe Kimber Kable 8TC used? 

Thank you all for your patience and holding my hand to audio nirvana.


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