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Problem with bass managment with many universals-

Hi all! I have heard of bass managment issues with certain players before, but I have yet to find one "universal" that has and good solution, or even slightly gets it right. Has everyone else just ignored, not noticed, or not found a good way to comprimise with one "universal" player in a system?
Here are my delimas that I have encountered. I have noticed this with most surround recievers and pre pros that are descent...When using the multichannel input, which one has to with dvda or sacd, one is limited to the non existant bass managmnet within the player.
To further detail: I own a B&K AVR507 and have tried this with 4 different denon and pioneer players as well as a yamaha that all are universal and have "bass managment"...
I own the dvd2900-soon to be modded, but have a dv45a and have tried the dv47ai as well as the dvd2200 and dvd1500 yamaha. Here is my first major problem. I, as many of you, have very capable front speakers that can play all but the lowest octive. I have a sub. I have tuned the room with the notch filter on the AVR507-if owners out there have not done this you are missing the boat!!! I am spoiled with the improvements this makes and it is "global"-in other words, it effects all selected inputs -OTHER than the dvda/sacd multichannel in...On this input, we now have to resort to using bass management that is generally associated with 5 year old pro logic recievers and is geared for htib/sub sat systems that has fixed crossovers at 90-125 hz and has no sub output at all if fronts are selected as anything other that "small"-even then the sound is miserable and makes putting hi rez stuff in sound MUCH WORSE THAN REDBOOK with the proper set up.
DOES ANYONE ELSE FIND THIS ASS BACKWARD???
Better, has anyone found a fix for this ridiculous problem?
I would expect this problem with a 3-400 "universal" but have duplicated the same problem with the Denon dvd2900($1000) and the Pio Elite DV47AI($900)!!!
The only "fix" I have found is to run the fronts as large on the dvd player, tell it you have no sub, and run speaker wire from the mains from your front l&r amp/reciever in addition to the LFE/sub cable so that your sub works when playing HI REZ???????????????SOLUTION??????
It is truly ashame when my properly set up standard compressed dvd's-with highly compressed dolby digital and dts data streams and not to mention Redbook cd's through the same machine absolutely smoke the sound quality of the hi rez stuff because the manufactures and or the studios will not let people manipulate the "perfect???" signal to make it work right for there own systems and or rooms and or listening styles.
Does anyone have any help that will fix my problems, or better will many more chime in just to prove a point-If these type of problems keep occuring, I will never want to buy any of the new super resolution formats, because my old tried and true one still sound much better optimized...
I guess this is why vinal keeps holding on, Eh??? Anyway, I have made the plunge to purchace the new machines that will play the high res stuff in a stellar ht/surroung rig, and so far have halted all buying of dvda/sacd until I can figure this mess out-worse, I am a dealer for this and am supposed to be selling this mess to the public and have been to my dispare-please, if any manufactures and or reps read this TAKE NOTE and make me the fool...FIX THIS!!!
scottshannon
11 responses Add your response
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
About the "optimum" SW crossover frequency...let me repeat my view that this varies a great deal according to the music. In general I think that the upper range of the SW is just as relevant as the lower range of the main speakers. In my particular setup my subwoofer systems are good to about 400 Hz (24 dB/octive XO). The way I know this is that my crossover permits me to vary the X/O frequency while music is playing, and when I input a white noise signal and sweep the X/O frequency over the range of 40 to 400 or so, there is no audible change in the sound. This suggests to me that I have achieved good "integration" of the subs with the mains. I usually use about 90 Hz, and go down to 40 for quiet music, and up to 200 or higher for orchestral and, particularly, organ music.
cinematic_systems
282 posts
 
There is no answer to your frustrations as clkearly you have experienced that a bits don't matter if the setup is incorrect.

Like all of us you must wait for the big companies to feel comforatable with giving us a multi-channel HD audio intercaqe that is standard. The downside to owning your receiver is that B&K does not make a DVD/SACD player with a custom interface.

I would not worry too much about the hi rez formats yet, once SACD collapses and DVD-A gets traction with HDMI-2?
things will shape up....the state of software/hardware is certainly equivalent to a tortured purgatorial existence.

and you're right it shouldn't be this way but it is.
scottshannon OP
42 posts
 
Good advise so far, I have not thought of using the main outs. Maybe this will help if I explain issue more. I have a B&K AVR507 Reciever that has STELLAR bass managment via the analogue or digital inputs that enables me to change the crossover points, as well as slopes, and has notch filtering that helps take some of the 50-60hz room node problems away. I am using Monitor gold ref 20's that have respectable bass to say 35 hz and a logan depth sub that is FLAT to 20hz in my room. I am getting stellar bass on all sources accept when I go to my 6ch input because the b&k as most good pre pros/recievers does not overlay its bass managment or do any processing nor will it let you on the 6ch input.
My problem is little to no bass output on the 6ch input only...If I use pre outs to sub, I loose the better bass managment in the reciever and loose my ablility to adjust the sub via remote-The system pulls double duty-so I do use this often. With it hooked up the way it is now, to get any reasonable sub output, I must turn all speakers to -8to -10 db on the Denon 2900 and jack the sub up to +10. This is the case if fronts are large and sub is on. I get a little more bass output is fronts are small and bass is on. but only a little more. I have yet to try fronts large and sub off because The b&K again doesnt manage the bass on this input, so the only solution I have found is to cheat the managment and run speaker level in addition to lfe/sub rca to sub so that it picks up "whatever" signal is present...
I have had this exact same problem here in my ht shop with pioneer elite dvd players as well as Yamaha's on the B&K-at all price points. I can cheat the managment and make it work, IT just doesnt seam as though it sohould be this way...
scottshannon OP
42 posts
 
Good advise so far, I have not thought of using the main outs. Maybe this will help if I explain issue more. I have a B&K AVR507 Reciever that has STELLAR bass managment via that analogue ir digital inputs that enables me to change the crossover points, as well as slopes, and has notch filtering that helps take some of the 50-60hz room node problems away. I am using Monitor gold ref 20's that have respectable bass to say 35 hz and a logan depth sub that is FLAT to 20hz in my room. I am getting stellar bass on all sources accept when I go to my 6ch input because the b&k as most good pre pros/recievers does not overlay its bass managment or do any processing nor will it let you on the 6ch input.
My problem is little to no bass output on the 6ch input only...If I use pre outs to sub, I loose the better bass managment in the reciever and loose my ablility to adjust the sub via remote-The system pulls double duty-so I do use this often. With it hooked up the way it is now, to get any reasonable sub output, I must turn all speakers to -8to -10 db on the Denon 2900 and jack the sub up to +10. This is the case if fronts are large and sub is on. I get a little more bass output is fronts are small and bass is on. but only a little more. I have yet to try fronts large and sub off because The b&K again doesnt manage the bass on this input, so the only solution I have found is to cheat the managment and run speaker level in addition to lfe/sub rca to sub so that it picks up "whatever" signal is present...
I have had this exact same problem here in my ht shop with pioneer elite dvd players as well as Yamaha's on the B&K-at all price points. I can cheat the managment and make it work, IT just doesnt seam as though it sohould be this way...
goinbroke
105 posts
 
I see what you meant now, Bufus, and I agree. I too think a sub starts to sound, well, just wrong when sent the raw LFE signal from some pre/pros that go as high as 200Hz. I can't think of any decent main speakers that wouldn't be better suited to reproduce that than a sub!
bufus
149 posts
 
What I was thinking about was letting the preamp/processor dump all of the LFE channel into the front speakers only, which in my set-up consists of the front speakers parallel with the subwoofer. I didn't even think about the fact that the preamp/processor crossover can be adjusted when I was talking about frequencies that were too high to go to the sub. What I was thinking is that, in my opinion, the raw LFE channel contains frequencies that would be better routed to the front speakers than the subwoofer. I say that because I've found that subwoofers tend to quickly sound unatural as you go up in frequency. Thanks for the thought provoking posts!!!!!
goinbroke
105 posts
 

"and the interaction between the three drivers would probably be a huge mess!!!"

Not as much as you might think, Bufus. The stereo sub pair act as simply another driver added to each of your front speakers, since they run off exactly the same signal as the left and right front speaker. It helps if the subs can be placed pretty near the left and right front speakers, as well. Using a pair of subs, as opposed to a single sub can help greatly with some room node problems. Additionally, I disagree with setting the pre/pro for no sub since that silences the LFE or ".1" output. While that method will function, it forces digital re-mixing of the discrete LFE channel by your processor which dumps low frequency info back into all five other channels, which isn't a good thing.

"because the ".1" channel (subwoofer output for "5.1" system) will contain frequencies that are too high to put into your subwoofer."

Uh, not unless your processor is really screwed up. This channel won't contain anything in the setup that you describe...it will be off. And even when it is on, it will never contain frequencies higher than the crossover setting in your source or pre/pro which may or may not be adjustable and is almost always somewhere between 35 and 150 Hz.

Everything else you had to say, I agree with. Good point about the Y-adapters...I completely forgot to mention that possibility. You make an INCREDIBLY good point about where to set the sub crossover for best integration, as well. I do the same as you in crossing over my stereo subs at a very low frequency, specifically about 10Hz below the lowest frequency the main speakers can produce while still having a flat in-room response. That way, when crossover slope is taken into account, I get a very smooth transition. Obviously, the exact number of Hz below to set the subs would depend on the slope of the sub's crossover and would have to be increased in the second scenario I mentioned, using an outboard crossover to relieve the main speakers of some of the low frequency info, but you get the idea. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who found they got the best results that way. I do set the LFE channel sub higher though, at around 100Hz, to get the most slam for movies then turn the crossover down for those rare instances when I listen to multichannel music. At least I only have to mess with the setting on one sub, though. The stereo pair stay right where they are set regardless of the source...two-channel or multichannel.

"Wow, the advice about using 3 subwoofers sounds VERY expensive"

Well, it can be. Maybe that's why I'm...
bufus
149 posts
 
Wow, the advice about using 3 subwoofers sounds VERY expensive....and the interaction between the three drivers would probably be a huge mess!!!

Anyway, it sounds like the general advice coming in is correct: You should set your system up as if you have LARGE FRONT SPEAKERS AND NO SUBWOOFER. Then run the FRONT L/R outputs to the subwoofer as well as the front channel amplifier inputs. (Hopefully you have two sets of outputs on your preamp for the FRONT channels. Otherwise, you could buy two Y adapters to split the outputs.) Now you can adjust the subwoofer settings (crossover, output level, phase) so that the front speakers and subwoofer mix together correctly.

This method makes sense because the ".1" channel (subwoofer output for "5.1" system) will contain frequencies that are too high to put into your subwoofer. (They would be much more accurately handled by your front speakers!) With my system, I found that my Thiel CS2.3 front speakers were good enough in the low bass that I got the best results from my subwoofer (Definitive Technology SuperCube I) by turning the crossover as low as it would go (40 Hz.) It might have sounded even better if the subwoofer crossover could have been set lower since the Thiels should respond down to about 35 Hz. I found the best position for the subwoofer to be in-between the front speakers with all three speakers at the same distance from the listening point. This gives the most natural response. Have fun.............Bufus
goinbroke
105 posts
 
..."and has no sub output at all if fronts are selected as anything other that "small"-"...

Well, I've never run into that problem, but your rant is generally correct that bass management is a joke. That's why I don't deal with it. Set your front speakers as 'large', run a stereo pair of subs off of the second set of L&R pre outs, and connect a third sub to the LFE out. Don't use the crossovers in your source or pre/pro, but instead use the crossovers in your subs to adjust them to mate well with your main speakers. The only disadvantage of this setup is that you don't get the benefit of removing the very low frequency info from your main speakers. To do that, you can add an outboard active crossover to the mix (Incidentally, this is, I think, the best way to go if you don't have an extra set of pre outs.). You didn't mention home theater, but if you use your system for both, as I do, then select more musically inclined subs for the stereo pair and a more HT inclined (read: slam) sub for the LFE. After a little time spent with a sound meter to get it right, it works pretty well for me. Now if I can just find a decent, simple and cheap active crossover...

Hope that helps --->
eldartford
4,262 posts
 
Bass management is a can of worms! The way I solved the problem is to tell my source equipment that I have no subwoofer, so that anything in the LFE channel (and in many cases there is nothing) gets mixed into Left and Right. Then my electronic crossover drives the subwoofers with the LFE signal along with the part of the Left and Right signals that should go to the SW.
customht
15 posts
 
Check out an Outlaw ICBM. You would just run all the channels as "Large" on your DVD and let the ICBM do the bass management. Its cross-overs are very configureable. You can run it between the DVD player and your pre/pro/receiver or if you have separates, between the pre/pro and the amp. It handles bass management better than most universal players out there, and is a pretty good deal for the price. The only down-side is five more interconnects.
-Don
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