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Prima Luna Integrated - EL34, KT88, KT150, Brimar AU - My experience

Thought I would help out some who are considering rolling some tubes ......
Prima Luna Dialog Premium HP Integrated Stereo

Stock EL34 - Chinese I think
JJ/Slovakia KT88 - from ARS
Tung Sol KT150  - yep, these are it, and worth it, do it.. purchased matched from Upscale

First, I have to tell you, I LOVE this amp.  Prior to this, I had a pair of monster VTL Deluxe 300 monoblock tube giants.  In short, the VTLs were less veiled... but the PLs are so musical, believe it or not, better bass! yes, true. and way more fun to own given the tube rolling flexibility.  (I only use the amp in ultralinear, higher power mode).  Oh, and the auto biasing feature - no more burnt fingers or back twists!  BTW, VTLs were a pain and flaky - still loved them and owned them for about 15 years.

The PL comes stock with (Chinese I believe) eight EL34 power tubes.  Out of the box, the amp is stellar.  Why did I try rolling tubes?  Well I have a big stock of power tubes left over from my VTLs.... KT88s ... so after a few months of using the amp as stock... I tried the KT88s.  These KT88s are labeled JJ/Slovakia and BTW, Upscale said to me they won't carry these KT88s from JJ because "their quality control is awful".  Anywho, I put them in anyway. 

EL34 = beautiful.... just a wonderfully musical tube - nothing wrong here - PL did a good job choosing this tube
KT88 = more dynamics, a bit more power, better fuller bass, but something was a bit wrong on the top end.... had an odd edge up there.  Overall I am not sure which I liked more.... the EL34s are perfect but I liked the more dynamics and bass of the KT88.. but their top end ... hmmmm..... I would switch them and therefore hear their strength and say "these are better"... then I would switch and say the same thing.  Issue was there were trade offs.
KT150 =  This is the tube you want.  Compared to the EL34... a bit more dynamics, less veiled, much more power, deeper bass.  Sounds very linear top to bottom.   The only negative of the KT150s over the EL34s... I think the EL34s were a tiny bit more musical... but the KT150s are very musical themselves.  Overall, the KT150s are staying put.  Done.
More to the story.... before I purchased the KT150s I traded emails with Upscale... we discussed the JJ KT88s... they suggested swapping out the front two 12AU7 gain tubes with Brimar CV4003 NOS (made in the '60s).  So I did... and I hated them!  OMG.... they did something to the top that made my ears bleed.  I really let them break in but I had to pull them out as I just couldn't take it.  Now this was with my JJ KT88s.  Upscale responded to me and said I was the only one to complain and describe them as bright.  So... I put the amp back to stock.... listened for a few weeks... then I put the Brimars in with the EL34s ... well OK, much better.. but I still am not sold on the Brimars.  I did learn that my KT88s really do have something bad going on at the top end given these Brimars screamed their issue.  So.... let's buy some KT150s from Upscale.

Note: Upscale said that many like their KT88s over the stock EL34s due to the dynamics and bass improvements so apparently, these JJs have a sonic characteristic that is different than other KT88s.  Maybe.  If all KT88s sound the same, then I can't recommend them.  If they don't all sound the same, then I can say strongly, don't bother with the JJ/Slovakia brand.

I have not tried the Brimars with the KT150s.... right now I have no desire to do so the amp sounds so good.  I probably will try them some day... maybe in a few months.
Anywho... I hope this helps some folks. 

PeaceBruce in Philly

bruce_philly

Showing 9 responses by bruce_philly

bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
Yea, the amp and brand get great reviews.

I found I have to be very careful of reviews.... I got burned a few times. For example, I purchased the Benchmark DAC1 solely based on reviews... boy what a lifeless unit. My older Accuphase is still way better (still be cause even at 18 years old it still sounds wonderful and I can’t bear to sell it.. so I use it as a transport now). The Benchmark product, if you listen closely.... hmmm.... there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Really odd as it just sounds dead and flat to me. Why it got the rave reviews is just ... well I don’t get it.
A long time ago, I "upgraded" my Sonic Fonrtiers tubed DAC with a factory upgrade. Robert Harley said it was worth it. Boy was I pissed.... that upgrade really ruined the sound for me. So.... buyer, or reader, beware.
Oh, BTW, I use the 4ohm taps on the PrimaLuna... seems pretty consistent across reviewers.

PeaceBruce in Philly


bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
I got my first exposure to tubes in a retailer on the west side of Cleveland around 1984. I walked into a showroom and was smitten by this beautiful sound... of course I assumed it was the speakers.... I described what I was hearing and the sales guy smiles and said that wasn’t the speakers, it was the electronics. It was a Luxman integrated with a glass window showing two small tubes. Boy did that stick in my head.
Then a few years later I was looking for a preamp.... back then there were many retailers and I was living in NYC so i had a huge selection of retailers, brands, and models to choose from. It didn;t take long to convice me that a tube preamp was the only way to go... then it became Audio Research vs Conrad Johnson.... I chose a CJ PV11 over AR... I remember this really clearly. .... The AR was way more detailed but John Coltrane sounded so much better on the CJ.

That was it.... I stuck with transistor amps but moved to a pair of VTL monoblocks ... they had the power and control of transistors. I had a retailer that let me take home some amps... tried Cary... (that thing sounded beutiful but the bass was so farty, I can;t believe anyone would think it was a good amp).

Anyway, tubes are it for me and I will never change.
PeaceBruce in Philly
bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
Oh, a few more items... just cause I can.....
I was so sold on tubes, I purchased the tubed Sonic Frontiers DAC and tubes really smoothed out the digititus of the day. Today, I own a PS Audio DirectStream DAC Junior that I am totally amazed with (no tubes but not digititus).
There are risks associated with tube amps.... this is my experience.... speakers that have difficult loads don’t mate well to tube amps. The PL gets good marks by reviewers for their ability to push difficult loads, but I am cautious about this due to my personal experiences.

I purchased a pair of Martin Logan Quest Zs.... awful with my big VTL monoblocks..... sounded "glassy" (odd, I thought problems would manifest in the bass, but not so) .. the MLs were known to have a difficult load ... I was traveling back then and would stop into ML dealers wherever I was .... always sounded great... always were displayed with transistor amps. The moment I hooked up my MLs, I knew something was just plain wrong. I kept the MLs for maybe 60 days.... shortest time for a component in my life.... I moved back to Magnepan with the MG 20 and they were good with the VTLs. However, these big Magnepans sounded way better in the bass when a friend brought over a CJ transistor amp... so.... tubes can have trouble in the bass.
So.... my rules of thumb for tube power amps: 1) don;t use them with speakers with difficult loads, 2) don;t use them with low efficiency speakers, 3), get a tube amp with higher power over a lower power unit.
There are always exceptions... for example if you don;t listen to rock, you don’t need a higher-power tube amp. If you do, get one with some juice.
Oh, biasing... the PL amps autobias... a godsend... I had to bias, with a multimeter 16 tubes on those VTLs and I grew to hate it. Just hate it. You have to bend over, get your plastic screwdriver into a slot (never would go) and dick with it. I would burn my fingers and you can;t put the amps into a rack, I had to get my head in there. While any amp you buy will most likely be a bit different, don’t assume it is not a big deal... it becomes a pain.
I could go on.... but if you follow my rules of thumb, you will be very happy with tube equipment.
PeaceBruce in Philly
bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
Leotis, I will try triode mode. 

Oddly, I never thought about it... I experimented with it on the EL34s and my JJ KT88s..... I didn't care for it... I think it is because the sound was a bit enemic.... I like a more dynamic sound.  Now with more power of the KT150s, yea, I will give it a try.... will start out a listening session in normal ultralinear mode to build a memory, and give it a try.
Are all Mullard CV4003 tubes the same?
As another selling point for PrimaLuna, notice in this and other threads the fun you can have rolling tubes.  I never heard of an amp that could take such a variety of power tube types.   Pretty cool and fun.  You can really tune the sound to match your taste or better match your speakers.

PeaceBruce in Philly
bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
OK, I listened half the day in triode mode with KT150s and stock small tubes...... I am confused... I don;t know which I like better.
I was listening to Keely Smith... she never sounded so good as in triode mode.  Madeline Peyroux... triode for her!  But with punchy music, ultralinear was more of a toe tapper.  With a couple tunes a guitar will pop out in space - imaging was enhanced in triode... but not always.  Odd.  Maybe it depends on the instrument's harmonic content.

Triode took some some of the edge out of words that start with "Ch...." and gave a nicer bloom to the midrange (actually upper midrange).
I guess I will choose based on the music.  Rockin' = ultralinear ... female vocals and warm music.... triode.
To anyone reading this thread who hasn't experienced tubes... for the most part, the sound differences are subtle.  Further, the Prima Luna sounds wonderful out of the box.  Because some likes this or that tube in the unit does not make the stock unit bad.  PL makes a real nice product.
PeaceBruce in Philly
bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
Thanx Ron,
Let me think about that.... I am just settling in with the KT150s.... Kind to offer.  I may ping you in a few months to take you up on this.
One nice thing about this hobby.... I doubt any trashy folks are into it.  We are all a bit crazy here, but how can you be bad when you love music?
PeaceBruce in Philly
bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
Ron sent me a pair of Cifte 12AU7s to try.  Thanx Ron!  Compared to the Brimars, they were better.  They took the edge off.  Overall I liked them.   I liked them quite a bit actually.  But still, there is a super-high frequency issue in my system.... 

Something changed... the KT150s sound has changed.... they are about 5-6 weeks old and they are becoming more transparent.... good.  They are also growing an extended top end.  Not brighter, but I can hear some higher frequencies more than I did.  I have Focal speakers with the Beryllium dome tweeters.... they go high that is for sure.
With jazz, and well recorded music, the sound is wonderful. No issues at all.  When I put on a crappy recording... yikes!!! The song Ballroom Dancing on Paul McCartney's Tug of War had dogs howling in the neighborhood.  Now this is a poorly mastered CD... but it is part of the catalog of music I listen to.
So....... The Brimars are way to bright for me, the Ciftes are really nice.  The stock Chinese are really fine but the Ciftes just sounded better.  So, what to do?   I just ordered some NOS Mullards from Kevin Deal at Upscale.... known for their glorious midrange and soft top, I am hoping for the best.
I guess what really counts is system matching.  If I were powering my old Magnepans, I suspect the sound would have been just great with the Brimars.
PeaceBruce in Philly
bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
Update again..... YOU GOTTA GIVE IT TIME!!!
I noted the sound changed.. the KT150s (or the system) had some super high frequency thing going..... now it is gone. I’ve been listining with the amps on for about 12 hours per day over the last three days... and it smoothed out. Sheesh!

So what is going on? The newest thing in my system is the KT150s.. I suspect they are still breaking in.... but... maybe there is hash on my electrical line? I have one of those PS Audio noise harvesters on my line and the other day it was almost black... I thought it broke... then it lit up and flashes madly.

I think the KT150s and still braking in. My NOS Mullards have not arrived yet.... I should have waited I think.. the original Prima Luna 12AU7s are sounding really really good right now. Maybe coulda saved some money.
So... How long does it take for a power tube like a KT150 to stabilize?

PeaceBruce in Philly
bruce_philly OP
31 posts
 
Mullards NOS.
OK, so I am now done... seriously, I think I am done.....
I left the PL 12AU7s in ..... so the amp is stock except for the KT150 power tubes.... the KT150s appear to be stable... amp is stable... sounds wonderful.  Now I have the Mullards sitting here staring at me.  OK, in they go...... guess what... they sound really similar to the Chinese 12AU7s stock in the PL!   Honestly, the amp sounds great with either.  I am leaving the Mullards in..... there is just nothing wrong with this system now.  Nothing.  If the Mullards crap out, I will just put the original Prima Luna 12AU7s back in and be done with it.
Interesting journey.....  This Prima Luna integrated is one of my better buys.  If you consider it, I can't imagine you not being happy with one.

PeaceBruce in Philly
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