Thanks for your opinions on this matter. I hear decreased dynamics using a passive preamp no matter how careful you are about impedance matching and interconnect length (loss of oomph as one of you put it). This was until I placed the stepped attenuator in the input stage of the amp. Going direct from my DAC to amp got rid of the extra interconnect between source and preamp (including all the resistors, caps, wires, switcher, etc in an active preamp), and the dynamics appeared in spades. I literally was startled when I first played music. I really thought I had an active preamp in there, but none of the coloration. My tube DAC actually has 8 kOhm output impedance and my tube amp 100 kOhm input impedance. My SS DAC has output impedance of 50 Ohm. Either way, both macro and micro dynamics are startling. I guess I hit proverbial pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I can not imagine spending $5k or above for a good active preamp, when I'm getting this kind of result. I've heard a lot of expensive active preamps $15k+, and I don't remember getting this level of transparency, neutrality (more warmth and less thinness, like real life), detailed smoothness, dynamics and soundstaging/imaging. I guess all the stars lined up for me. YMMV. |
Exactly, I have a Goldpoint passive stepped attenuator inside the amp. I haven't come across any preamp outside the amp that is better. |
In my system: Tap X autoformer preamp (own, very pure clean sound with exceptional high freq), LDR preamp (borrowed), Audio Research Ref 5 (borrowed), Gary Dodd battery powered tube buffer preamp (borrowed, very very good sound), Audible Illusions (owned), Threshold FET 9 (owned), and Placette passive (borrowed).
In other systems I am familiar with: Rowland Criterion, VTL TL 7.5, Atmasphere MP1, Bolder 2010, and Music First passive transformer preamp. |
I've also tried DACT attenuator in an amp I owned long ago, but I wasn't as successful. For some reason, the Goldpoint works exceptionally well in my current amp. |
Oh yea, I also had the Hovland HP-100 in my system.
I also auditioned the Ayre KXR preamp at a dealer. I guess I'm really not into active SS preamps. There always seems to be some residual thinness to the sound from a SS preamp, no matter how expensive, that a good tube preamp avoids. But that's just me. Others might describe the thinness as neutral, but I don't hear that in real life. I haven't heard the dartZeel, which according to some, is the cat's meow. |
Precisely charlsdad. I used to own a modded Threshold SA-30 class A amp. It did not have the thinness (still miss it), but it didnt have the harmonic richness of a good tube amp. I always feel I'm missing something with SS. Of course tube amplification has its problems too, but I rarely feel like I'm missing out on musical aspects that are important to me. |
Preinka,
"you have to buy very good preamplifier (usually for $$$) to not to waste the money on it....."
If I can get this level of performance using $160 stepped volume control, a preamp is a waste of money no matter what the cost. Granted I have no need for switching or phono. I don't agree a really good preamplifier have to be expensive. Take for example, the Dodd battery powered buffer and preamplifier which can be had for under $2k. It can put some "$$$" preamps to shame. |
No need to get defensive Grannyring. I didn't say it was a waste of money for your system. I've read your thread on the Dude preamp and almost bought one. BTW, I have a stepped resistor attenuator in my amp, not a volume pot...a big difference in sound quality, IME. |
I would have to agree with Ralph of Atma-Sphere..."If you have the passive control in the amp then you can make it work and it will be difficult to find a preamp that will do better." This coming from a guy who designed the MP-1, one of the best tube preamps I've heard. |
I could be wrong, but most integrated have active preamp built into it, and they usually use cheap pots, not stepped attenuators. And integrated usually have switching capability for multiple inputs and even balance control...all of these degrades the signal. However, I've seen some tube integrated with a rudimentary pot at the input stage. My tube amps are mono blocks so I have stepped attenuator for each amp which can also serve as balance...probably the best way to set up balance control. |
Tmsorosk, I would gave to disagree. When I installed the goldpoint attenuators, the sound became more full with increased harmonic detail and dynamics. It wasn't warm in the classical tube sense, but there was less tilting of the sound toward brightness. This is antithesis of what I hear with SS. I play classical guitar, and some of my classical guitar recordings tend to bright and hard, closer to steel string guitar rather than the creamy full sound of nylon strings. Most probably wouldn't notice this coloration unless you play acoustic guitar. Now these recordings actually sound like the real thing, the most neutral sound I've gotten from my system. |
Grannyring, my bad. It's hard to interpret the intent of some posts. I enjoyed reading your Dude thread. |
Devilboy, we have similar experience with these passives. I have to admit though in my system the stepped attenuator in the input of the amp was hands down better than the external passives. |
Kijanki, I used to own the Hyperion 938s, one of my favorites. I think I was the first to own a pair in the US having purchased them in 2004. I miss them, but to big for me. I would buy them again if my back wasn't so messed up. I have to say the 938s sound great with tubes and smooth SS.
I prefer an amp which is just a touch on the warm side of neutral. On 1 to 10 scale, 1 being sterile and bright, 5 being neutral, and 10 being overly warm/ripe, I prefer 6. Just because more recordings error on the lean side. |
Ralph, I have two digital sources and don't mind switching interconnects between the two, which I only do once in couple of months. Getting up from the chair to change volume and balance can be PITA, but I've gotten use to it. However, I have a solution...I'm getting remote controlled stepper motor for my Goldpoint attenuator that can adjust volume and balance. Two stepper motors, two Goldpoint mono attenuators, and control logic board including the hand held remote cost me about $500. Obviously you have install them yourself or pay someone to do it for you. I can't conceive of getting equal performance, unless I'm prepared to dish out serious money for a remote controlled preamp (ie, $15k+). It's mind boggling to me when I consider the amount of money I would have to spend on an external preamp to equal this simple setup in my system. |
Last_lemming, I think your assumption less is more going the passive route is essentially correct, as long as you have equipment that are compatible and willing to make some sacrifices. I think I got lucky going this route. |
Yes Kijanki, the Hyperions have one of the best midrange of any speaker I've heard, including electrostats and ribbon speakers. Their spiderless drivers are unique. They haven't folded yet. I might end up getting a pair of the 968s. |
But getting back to the subject of this thread, I'm not sure one can ever determine if his preamp is "neutral" unless he was at the recording session and all his other components in the chain are neutral. Essentially an impossibility for most of us. All we have is our subjective opinion as to what we think is neutral. In that respect, my current amp with stepped attenuator is as neutral as I have heard. |
Mrtennis, I have a DAC that has an output tube and a rectifier tube. I have been changing those tubes to change the "flavor" of my system. Having too many tubes in a system hasn't been a good thing IME. Too much heat, to many tube failures, too much expense, and too much noise...any too much tubey goodness. |
