Preamps... understanding volume...


Is my understanding that preamps don't "amplify" a variable line out, but only attenuate?I'm trying to understand how preamp selection is important with low sensitivity speakers, even if you have a powerful amplifier.
Thanks.
sarsicism

Showing 4 responses by almarg

Elliott, to answer your question just above:

The gain of the preamp cannot change the amp’s maximum power capability, of course. If the maximum output voltage of the source when boosted by the gain of the preamp is enough voltage to drive the amp to its maximum power capability, additional gain will just result in the amp providing that amount of power, or a given lesser amount of power, at a lower setting of the volume control than would be the case if the preamp’s gain were lower.

The maximum output power capability of the amp, into an 8 ohm or 4 ohm resistive load, corresponds to its rated continuous power capability into those impedances, plus whatever margin may be built into those ratings, plus whatever amount of dynamic headroom the amp can provide for limited amounts of time, plus or minus whatever presumably small differences may exist between different examples of the same make and model.

Regards,
-- Al
To the OP: I took a look at the specs and descriptions of the six source components you listed. Some comments regarding driving the Odyssey Stratos Extreme directly from them:

1) Note that the RME device only provides balanced outputs, and see the comment regarding the Stratos that was provided by Stereo5 on 6-4-2018, and my comment immediately following his post, in this thread.

2) The lowest of the three output level settings provided by the RME (+2 dbV balanced) may be too low to be suitable, depending on the gain and sensitivity of the amp. At least one of the other two settings should be ok, though.

3) NAD apparently does not provide a spec for output level or for output impedance when one of the digital inputs of the C658 is being used. I suspect that it would be ok in both respects, though, unless the amp’s gain and sensitivity are considerably different than average (see note 5 re "average").

4) The miniDSP device is the only one of the six for which an output impedance spec is provided, and it would have no problems driving 22K. I suspect the others would also be ok in terms of impedance compatibility, but to be certain you may want to check with their manufacturers.

5) The output levels of the Topping, miniDSP, and two ProJect models will all be fine unless the gain and sensitivity of the amp are either well below or well above average. Average gain for a power amp tends to be in the vicinity of 26 to 30 db or so; for an amp like this which is rated to provide 150 watts into 8 ohms those gains correspond to sensitivities of about 1.7 and 1.1 volts respectively.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al



Unfortunately it appears that sensitivity is not specified at the Odyssey site for any of the Stratos amplifiers. Nor is gain, which in conjunction with the maximum power ratings could be used to calculate sensitivity.

And I couldn’t find relevant specs or measurements elsewhere after doing a quick Google search. So I suggest that you contact Odyssey and ask for that information.

Regards,
-- Al
My plan is to go Mac Mini to a DAC/Preamp to a beefy amplifier to speakers with a sensitivity of 86 db at 2.8 Volts.
If I had an all digital DAC/Preamp combo that maxed out at "line level", is that enough to reach reasonably loud levels?

Since you are using a digital source (as opposed to vinyl, for example) more often than not the answer will be "yes," assuming the amp has sufficient power capability. But for a definitive answer to be provided you should state the make and model of the amp, or at least its sensitivity spec (which is usually, although certainly not always, defined based on the input voltage that is required to drive the amp to its maximum rated power capability).

Also, "line level" is a term that is loosely defined with respect to voltage. The voltage of an analog audio signal will of course vary with the volume of the music at any given instant, but even so the **maximum** voltage of a line-level signal can be anywhere from a fraction of a volt to perhaps 3 volts or more for single-ended outputs, depending on the component providing the signal.

Typically digital sources provide maximum voltages in the area of 2 to 3 volts, for single-ended outputs. Double those numbers for balanced outputs. In the case of phono cartridge/phono stage combinations, when a cartridge is providing its rated output (which is based on certain test conditions which represent relatively high volume but somewhat less volume than the dynamic peaks of certain recordings), the single-ended output of a phono stage providing typical amounts of gain (for example, 40 db for a 5 mv cartridge; 60 db for a 0.5 mv cartridge; 66 db for a 0.25 mv cartridge) will be about 0.5 volts. (40 db more than 5 mv is 0.5 volts; 60 db more than 0.5 mv is also 0.5 volts, 66 db more than 0.25 mv is also 0.5 volts). Again, double the 0.5 volt figure for balanced outputs if the phono stage provides them.

The input voltage required to drive a power amp to full power will often be somewhere between 1 and 2 volts for a single-ended input, but in some cases may be as little as 0.5 volts or as much as perhaps 2.5 volts. And double those numbers for balanced inputs.

As I said, the dynamic peaks of some recordings can cause a phono cartridge to output somewhat more than the cartridge’s rated output, which is based on certain standard test conditions. But even if it were putting out say three times its rating on dynamic musical peaks the phono stage would provide just 1.5 volts in typical situations, barely enough voltage to drive many power amps to full power, and not enough in some cases. So you can see why Clio09 indicated that he needs his preamp to provide considerable gain with his analog sources.

Finally, an important point to keep in mind: The gain specs of preamps almost always refer to the gain they provide when their volume control is turned up to max. And it is usually desirable to have enough gain to be able to drive a power amp to its maximum power capability without having to turn the control all the way up, assuming the power capability of the amp is not **greatly** more than would ever be used with the particular speakers. As you can see from the numbers I stated above, that is likely to be a concern only in some situations involving vinyl or other analog sources. If a digital source is being used the opposite concern is more likely to arise, especially if the source is used in conjunction with a high gain preamp, the concern in that case being having to use the volume control at undesirably low settings.

Again, though, what is the amp? And if it has been determined at this point, what is the DAC/preamp?

Regards,
-- Al