Preamp Deal of the Century

Signal current pressures in a can,
expelled compositly through a diaphragm.
Does not equate to natural sound,
but supports the squawk that goes around.
If all knew sound through the same ear,
would there be reason to be hear? :-)

Appliances of variable acoustical physics, and ears as diverse as finger prints.

Reference is a variable.

This is what I have learned today!

Sorry all, I have no wine or wisdom. Even NASA Design Engineers aren't perfect...however, it is fun to BS about the aim of perfection.

Dear Asa,

To sum it up...I hear, you hear, they hear.

Natural is as to organically created ( human voice and winded pitch instrument oscillations, human striking mineral and organic resonant objects, and friction induced resonations).

Yes, a given it is, and understood not yet to be exactly electro mechanically reproduced as compared to a live violinist creating a "Natural Sound". A Violinist Playing in ones left ear and the best methods of reproductions of the same playing through a speaker in one's right ear does not a reference make,...but of course, no two listeners by individual description does not a reference make as well.

Audiophile Reference is not concrete nor has a standard of measure that I can tell with exception of one's nearest description of Hmmm to closer understanding with another's Hmmm.

With one being exactly equal to another... then there is reference. No two exact finger prints, no two exact ears (of hearing by description) no true reference and no true human measurement of such.

Current flow and Composit Frequencies competing and colliding harmonically in persuit of the most conductive path of least resistance only to be thrust into an inductive and ancient artifact of diaphragm technology...just a little stronger, yet lighter, faster and more...sensitive.

In Summary:

With all said and done with descriptions of Soundstage, depth and transparency...are we all just trying to achieve a scaled up to room size set of better headphones? LOL :-)

Let me be the first to say honestly that I know nothing of what I'm talking about. I understand some of what others say and I sincerely appreciate their much higher knowledge and experience. As for my self...I am void reference :-)

Audiogon is an Oracle of some truly knowledgable individuals with great experience that freely shares with lessor beings of knowledge and experience such as myself.

On Point to Preamp Deal of the Century: I'm still building an endless system of upgrades of higher quality. If you listen to a component system you like be it used from a friend or new...Buy it. If you can't afford it... finance it and Buy it. I'm learning the true costs of experimenting, buying multiples of items (cables of various types and other goodies). I do understand ampacity, attenuation, current, conductor quality, impedence, inductive capacitance (LC)influences in respect to frequency and some other good stuff. I'm reading about Marketing Major frequency speaking Voodoo Cable Witch Doctors right now. Very good money invested in a very good preamp is money well spent and likely won't be changed out for a while. Don't skimp too much on the Preamp, get what you want.

Thanks to all,

Rcnc500

Tom,

I Bow to you in gratitude! I will first say a merry good morning to you and thank you for your anti-whacking prevention position! I read your comments on 1-11-04 regarding you finding the Bass on your ceiling and geometrically rechanneling the energy toward your listening chair. I laughed so hard I nearly soiled myself! LOL :-)

I like your space ship! A Man's Cave space or a Space Ship like listening room must be tweaked to personal liking without "killing the music". I desire more of a Star Trek Bridge room motif myself, complete with a Captain Kirk styled listening chair. Since I am married, fending off my listening cave space from my wonderful wife's desire to alter (feminize) is an ongoing vigil.

Preamp Deal of the Century: I have found a couple of used Bryston preamplifiers BP20 (640.00) and a BP25MC (a little higher here $1,330.00 with MM and MC phono stage) on the used market are some very good values. If you can find a used Bryston BP25MC closer to $1,100.00 you have done very well. Very clean sounding with a dark silent backgroud.

Thanks again Tom :-)

Good Morning to All

Thanks Asa for your helpful and appreciated input. I was thinking that I my system was going to be on the brighter sound side and it will give me some reference of higher detail. I also wanted to experiment with the Subwoofer in the component mix. The Monitor Audio 3i speakers which I consider temporary for about 1 month or so will provide a medium of sound out only. My investment in the other components was significant for me and are all I want to invest (right now) into a total SS system. I did play the BP20 preamp through a Dennon POA 2400 SS Amp and I liked the clean blackness of the background. I think I would like to try a tube preamp with the Bryston 4B SST Amp at some near future point. I seriously considered tube equipment and I like good quality. $4K to $5K seems to be starting purchase point for good quality entry level tube equipment (for new preamp and amp)and I'm concerned I would want to upgrade (the tube Amp primarily) very shortly after. I prefer simple designs and few tube stages, the more tubes, more possible noise, complexity, troubleshooting and maintenance. Cary Audio would be my first choice to try for tube equipment. They are in Apex, NC and are about 12 ro 15 miles from me. I purchased the Bryston Preamps used so I could experiment and could, resell them if I pursued a tube preamp (which is strongly pulling at me). Because of brightness to be expected in my system I do not want to invest in good Monitor speakers until I learn and listen more. I understand that the tube based systems generally have a warmer, richer, and yet some detailed musical quality (lacking in powerful bass?). The balance of these characteristics I have not experienced for many years. I knew a person up in Toronto Canada that had a pair of Klipsch Corner Horns and 2-100 Watt Mono Amps (back in the 1983-84 time frame). The sound of that system was unbelievable and that was my tube reference. I distinctly remember clean and powerful. Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon never ever sounded so good to me as it did on that system :) Simple higher quality tube designs are more of interest to me. Regarding SS equipment, I looked at Krell and others new and used (new was out of the question for me to experiment with, and used prices were better of course however still high for used). I am cautious and aprehensive about older pure Class A or AB amp designs from a reliablity standpoint. The high heat dissipation, aging filter Capacitors and other components. My approach to the system I'm currently building is that it would be better to add desired levels of warmth ( combinations of tube preamp, cables and speakers) to taste to a brighter base system than to brighten up a very warm system. Then again, my friends...I have no good reference...yet. I look forward to sharing my experience in the future. Trial and error is a personal endeavor I suppose. Many of you probably relate to where I am at right now and already know better choices and can see possible mistakes ahead. All said and done, I'm having an adventure of learning and gaining more experience and I do really just want to listen and enjoy the music.

Any and all input is very welcomed.

Thank you,

Rodger

Tom, excellent point made on the reference grounding the system components. Thank you most sincerely for the advice. I did not really consider the aspect of reference grounding all the components. It makes abolute sense. I guess I accepted mentally the components being chasis grounded through power cord grounds. However, higher frequency attenuations and comprimised reference grounds. I will pursue the Audiopoints. Do you sell such devices or do you have recommendations of where to go to acquire them?

Thank you very much Tom!

Rodger

Hello Asa,

Thank you as well for your writings. I had responded with some thoughts, responses and references and lost all the information before I could send.

So anyway....I stated before I am void of "reference" speaking primarily of actual experience of various types of higher end audio equipment comparisons as described here on Audiogon.

I am presently building a somewhat neutral or reference system to me that I can learn and grow from. I carefully chose a Bryston 4B SST Pro Amp (new)(it was to be Bryston or Belles amp., I may try Belles 150 Reference later) and have purchased a couple used Bryston Preamps BP20 and BP25MC. I do want to revisit my record collection again and wanted a phono stage integrated in a preamp thus is the BP25MC with MM and MC select. Depending on the outcome, I'll keep the BP20 and purchase an external phono stage or use the BP25 with the internal phono stage (I still need a turntable).

I'll first try Nordost SPM 1M XLR Reference cables (used) between the Amp and preamp. My initial CD player source will be a Tascam CD-401 MKII (used)with Nordost Red Dawn RCA cables (new) between the CD and preamp. Speaker Cables will be low impedence Silverline 6 wire speaker cable. I will set the speaker cable up in a bi-wire configuration as such:

4-lengths of cable 8.5' in length, 2 cables per speaker. Each cable will have six strands of wire on one end connected to a single spade lug. The other end of the speaker cable will have 3 strands each to 2 banana plugs. One cable will supply (-) polarity and another cable will supply (+). I want some separation between polarities (not handled in the same cable, example, 3 wires (+) and 3 (-)).

This cable is advertised at $15.00/ft. (Shop around, you may find it less :-), Audiogon/Ebay)

My gut aches at the cost of the inter-connects. I still paid $664.00 for 4 inter-connects (2-bal. XLR, 2-RCA). I shopped carefully and know they cost much more. Shielded microphone cable may be all I really need for interconnects for the high impedence connections but I'll probably try those also at a later date for comparison.

I will use existing speakers, Monitor Audio 3i smaller monitors just to get started with sound and burn in the system. These are only 80 Watt speakers and the Amp is capable of 347 WPC. Must keep the power out low! I'm thinking of purchasing Linbrook Signature Series Monitors (200 Watt) from Ty at Tyler Acoustics (looking at used right now).

I also have a new SVS 20-39 PC Plus powered (active) 525Watt
subwoofer to use with this system. My listening room is small at 12' x 13' so I'll just use good quality Monitor speakers and compliment with the single subwoofer (at this time :).

OK Asa and other Audiophiles, please review my "Reference in the making and please make comments and suggestions. I'm just waiting for all the cables to come in now. All items are purchased and all but cables are in (no turntable).

Thanks to all,

Rodger

Hello Tom,

I am somewhat concerned about the bright side of sound and your insight supports what I'm thinking. This will be the reference to play with. I'm thinking I may have to make some changes to warm the sound a little. Inter-connects and speaker cables have me a little concerned at this time (I'm already planing the speaker change out from the Monitor Audio 3i).

What are your thoughts on the inter-connects and the speaker cables Tom?

Thank you very much!

Rodger

Tom are you speaking of the brass Audiopoints that screw into the chasis like the threaded taper brass cones (support components like under the amp and so on. Or are you speaking electrically bonding a reference ground to the component chasis's. I saw some Audiopoints (Threaded vibration isolation brass cone devices that help mechancial transference of vibrations?

Thanks Tom,

Rodger

Thanks Tom!

I definitely understand what you're saying now. The Audiopoints Mechanical grounding devices (component vibration influence reduction)and definitely on a common buss ground shared on a common ACV outlet. A dedicated 20Amp circuit (single circuit run direct from the home breaker panel with dedicated circuit breaker) would definitely be a good recommendation. I have an isolation transformer that I had planned to use for a dedicated clean power circuit (I have an electronics background). Now I'm considering a commercial product with some level of uninterruptable power (UPS) to provide clean power (filtered ACV with transient and surge protection) in line with a dedicated circuit. Cleaner ACV and better equipment protection combined. I on the clean power trail now...:-)

Thanks again Tom, things are coming together!