wow...there is a new SF flagship? now that IS interesting!!!
where do i learn more about it? |
Downunder,
That is a great call...take the legendary 8's and upgrade them with CJ's latest Teflon capacitors. 275 watts of CJ power. Fantastic! Enjoy!
Lloyd |
Hi Microstrip
Thanks for your advice. I will upgrade to Act 2.2 at some point. I have recommended to audition the Gryphon Antileon Signature.
Though SS, it is 150wpc pure Class A, and apparently "ends the discussion" about tube v solid state. I am starting to consider select SS models now having spoken with many people about certain SS makes. |
Wow! Thanks for the quick responses! Appreciate the advice. Have also received from direct emails from fellow A'goners looking to help...thanks to you as well.
I have been invited to audition Wavac MD805s. I will try to find place that carries VTL, CAT and VAC (in London UK).
As for Pass, i've seen many A'Goners like Pass with SF's. Personally, i do love the earlier SF speakers (Electa Amator, Extrema) with SS like Krell...OTOH Guarneri, Amati and Strad i somehow associate with tubes. Given Ackman00's recommendations, i will keep an open mind...SS with the extreme palpability of a great tube could be perfect! Thanks again to all. |
...oh and Cary & Wolcott of course! Thanks, Audiograils and Unsound. |
Thanks for the further responses and advice! Mechans - that is consistent with i am starting to learn about tubes and amps in general. Yes, there is something about watts, but it is both current and voltage which matter. (e.g., there are some great and powerful sounding low wattage tube amps...high current designs.) I will try to check out the Wavacs this weekend.
Jamnesta/Jmpwme - spoke with Downunder who owns the strads and the 2102s. Jayctoy - will email Markr1...thanks! |
Thanks Downunder,
Yes, i agree. Earlier SF's and modern SF's (other than Homage series) mated well with good SS like Krell. But the Guarneris, Amatis and Strads seem imho to mate much better with Tubes.
I auditioned the Strad with ARC CD7, ARC Ref 3 and Krell Evo 402...don't get me wrong. i heard some pretty incredible sound, and the 402 is one heck of an amp. I guess i missed that absolute palpability that the STrad is capable of producing (but which also typically requires a tube to get the full measure of that palpability in my experience so far.)
Meanwhile, I heard the Evo 402 with the Grand Pianos and other SFs...outrageously good synergy.
then again...have heard the Ayres are pretty incredible in palpability! Pls let us all know how the Ayres do with the Strads! thanks. |
Thanks for the further posts! I read a review in this month's issue of HiFi+ about the new David Berning Quadature Z 200w OTL tube monos. They went crazy in the review, saying it was hands down the best amp they had ever heard, effectively redefining their view on musicality, muscle and refinement.
David Berning Zh270 has a very loyal following, and i remember reading in STereophile (Jan 05) that Franco Serblin of Sonus FAber had Stereophile at the factory, listening to a ZH270 running the SF Strads.
Any thoughts on the new Quadature Z's would be welcome! i have contacted the company and will post if i find a way to hear them. thanks. |
Hi. I will be auditioning the Berning Quad Z monos! Will update. |
Thanks, Downunder! I really appreciate your candor and respect your insights. Funny - I have Velodyne DD18 in parallel with my Strads...once again our tastes and systems seem to run a parallel path.
I will let you know my own thoughts on the DM100 next week.
Separately, did you ever hear the CJ LP 275? I recall you were thinking about it. I love my little CJ MV60....maybe I just get another one and monoblock? Thoughts? |
Wow...Thanks Sirspeedy. Sounds pretty incredible. I will say the Zanden 5000S captured me, after only 5 minutes. I had struggled to do the DCS Elgar Plus 3x before ultimately deciding it was not for me in spite of how great it was.
I will look into the 9600s.
And yes, Downunder the Bernings are 30K. Nevertheless, i am someone who likes to listen to pieces like this so that either a) i determine i am going to keep looking, b) i understand the totality of what is achievable today, c) i decide i am either going to do something crazy like get them, or wait until a more sensible time to spring for them.
I bought my first boombox in 86, my first system 93-96, and have started the first upgrade in '05-'08. i have upgraded each component ONCE, and do not expect to look back for another 10+ years.
Thanks to the A'Goners, i have many things to audition before i decide: at the moment,
Wavac
Berning Quad Z
CJ LP 275
Zanden 9600
will be an adventure for sure! |
Thanks JohnK! Will look into it! |
Hi Downunder,
I have heard others say the Pass bridges the gap btwn solid and tube. I have heard the same of the CJ Premier 350...read Martin Collom's review on the net. Wow...until the Premier 350, the Krell 700cxi was one of his fav SS amps. He said the 350 bettered it by being more musical...130-point rating by Martin. 600 watts/channel into 4ohm load so plenty of power/effortless volume for a 93db efficiency Strad. |
Hi Sirspeedy, have read and respect your posts from before. Very helpful. Between your post and Downunder's plus lots of listening and reading, I've refined my thinking for my SF Strads. I am a tube guy and love my CJ MV60's EL34s for midrange palpability. If I am looking for tube midrange and effortless power and volume, I am narrowing it down to CJ LP275, Berning Quad Z, possibly Wavac 833 1.3s. Thanks for posting!!! |
Wow, Downunder...please let me know if you listen to them!!! It is tough/impossible to get CJ in UK where I am.
Thanks, Larryi...have read your posts and learned from them. I will try to look into Atmaspheres here in UK. |
Thanks, Larryi. I've seen your posts before and learned from them. I agree with you on Strads. Compared to Wilson Grand Slamms or Maxx 2s, the Strads are more about "feeling the roisin of the violin strings' than dynamic attack and speed. I prefer my Strads to the Maxx2 because while I care about hip hop, Deep House and orchestral, I listen most critically to jazz, female vocals, and string quartets where the emotive feel of the Strads is remarkable. That said, the Grand Slamms are in their own league.
Thanks for your advice. I'll look for Atmaspheres in London....and hope the Berning Quad Zs (also OTL's) will be a good match.
Lloyd |
Hi jskg,
thanks...i am a big CJ and SF fan, as apparently you are as well. As i have the ACT 2 preamp and CJ mv60 amp at the moment, i am very seriously considering either of the 2 amps...am leaning towards pushing the boat out, as you say, and getting the 275 monos.
Have you compared the 275 to the 140? would love to hear your impressions about what the 275 gives you. thanks! |
Hi Downunder,
I have not gotten anything yet. In fact, I still am waiting to hear Bernings...now must wait til end of Jan. Expect to listen to Gryphons and CJ just after the new year...hard to get auditions in London sometimes! Plus, the global mkts have made work very busy...a good thing though tough.
Did u audition the lpm275 monos?
If so, how were they?
SMP - got your email. Sounds interesting. Will email u back. Thanks!!! |
Thanks, Downunder. Cannot wait! i too may hear in mid to late Jan. Wavacs, Gryphons, LP275s are on the top of the list at the moment. Bernings are also still a possibility. |
Thanks Kejser and Rawawjakaj. At the moment, Gryphon, Wavac are high on my list. So are Lamm and Berning. I need to find a place in London, UK that actually carries Lamm. Should be auditioning this month! thanks again and happy new year.
Lloyd |
Hi Rtn1 and Bvdiman,
Thanks. As you can see, my thinking has evolved towards Class A sound SS while still including some high powered tubes. i have heard great things about FM Acoustics, in large part due to the many A'philes who have praised them on this site. Yes, the CJ is RCA only...Gryphon provides their own adaptors into their balanced inputs. I will try to find a place to hear FMA's if i can...expensive, but so is Gryphon, Lamm, Wavac... perhaps second-hand/demo which is what this website is all about.
Given how many tubes one needs to have (and to replace!) for 300watt tubes, and given that i have a tube DAC and tube pre, i am starting to lean towards SS. i just have to audition carefully myself and decide. thanks for the advice! |
Hi Downunder!
Great to hear from you!...cannot wait to hear your impressions of the great Gryphon.
I have spoken with Schorly, Mihalis both of whom I know personally, and also a major hifi store owner here in London with whom I've bought most of my system. Independently, they seem to agree. Colosseum is cleaner, more transparent...Antileon is darker, perhaps warmer. I am considering an even older model which is rumored to even be a tad warmer/darker. Everyone has loved the Antileon and I am leaning towards it.
Because I have Zanden DAC and CJ Act 2 pre, the more I listen to SS vs Tube, the more I realize that my 50watt CJ is not controlling my Strads nor giving me the dynamic range these speakers are capable of. Though I did not like the Krell Evo 402 mid or upper, I realized how much power/dynamics these speakers can deliver.
I have a lot of warmth from DAC and pre...so while I could look to Wavac or Unison Research or ARC Ref 210, I am going to go SS but Class A SS...Gryphon, trying to hear Vitus. Please post your 'review'!!! Lloyd |
Hi Downunder,
I would be very surprised if our respective tastes in sound quality were not quite similar. Each of our entire systems share a very similar lineage/DNA. No surprise, I am inclined to agree with your statement above...though auditioning is of course the only way to know for sure. Mihalis favors a cleaner sound than I do...he is full Gryphon set-up.
Yes, I am under the impression that the Antileon Signature is still available. I spoke with Gryphon in Denmark. Basically, in 95 Gryphon came out with the DM100...100-watt Class A, dual mono 200lb amp...same chassis as today's Antileon Sig...the second generation of this amp was called the Antileon...also 100-class A. Then came the Antileon Signature...150-watt Class A...300 into 4ohm...600 into 2ohm...1200 into 1ohm, 2400 into 0.5ohm and peak 5000 into 0.5 ohm. Whew!
I was told by friend who auditioned Antileon Sig with Strads (and whose favorite amps for strads til then was Tenor/Wavac) that Antileon Sigs with Strads were 'bar none' the best sound he has ever heard. Period. He said it hit all the marks...warmth, speed, real life soundstage, power...iron fist in velvet glove...etc. Let me know what you hear for yourself! Would appreciate hearing your opinion as always! |
Oh, BTW...you want to go to Ultra Audio website...Jeff Fritz reviewed the Antileon Signature back in '04 when it first came out...he used terms like "colors/tonality"...'tube mids/uppers and SS bass'...note in future reviews of other amps, he also looked back on the Antileon Signature saying 'it had an analog sound I missed when it was gone...". Hope that helps! |
Wow...thanks Downunder...now that's you, Mihalis, Schorly, and two audio stores who don't even sell Gryphon)-- all of whom i respect who all concur that Gryphon Class A SS is unbelievable, even for those who love tubes.
Will be interesting to hear your views on the Antileon. For me, i do not intend to go to the Colosseum level.
In addition to Antileon being more than great enuf for me, i also suspect any changes in the speakers are probably going to trend slightly towards the accurate end...even with tubes in the DAC and Pre, i still prefer to have a slightly darker amp to give me that ability to change speakers to something like used Grand Slamm.
thanks again for great review! |
Hi Downunder,
I am scheduled to audition Gryphon Antileon Signature and DM100 next Saturday. I have spoken with dealer who is familiar with all 3 (incl Colosseum). DM100 and Antileon Signature are supposedly very close (one A'goner who owns Signature also agreed).
Colosseum is apparently next generation..."Cleaner" according to Mihalis ("less dark") and also according to Gryphon Denmark. Overall, consensus appears to be Gryphon family sound is consistent...hugely powerful and analog. Good luck! Will post once I've heard.
Lloyd |
Auditioned the CJ350 today...just to be thorough. Very powerful, impressive dynamic range but does not force its power thru the music...delicate passages just get louder while maintaining their delicacy. The music takes on more brilliance in its volume/dynamics as you crank the volume.
The bass notes (when called for) are very deep and the ability for the amp to maintain sustained and controlled power in those super-low registers is impressive.
The upper and mids were extremely well delineated and soundstaging quite open...but ultimately I missed the fullness of tubes. e.g., Things like handclaps were accurate (but it was that last 10%-15% of fullness that makes u feel like someone is in the room clapping) which was missing. And I really enjoy that fullness from great tubes.
Shane - I concur with your advice on CJ 350...and look forward to auditioning Gryphons next week. |
Thanks Microstrip! Appreciate the warning! I am set up for the audition anyway, so it will be a good education for me. I am hopeful DM100 will be for me as I'm told its darker, more tube-like. We'll see! Will post!
Lloyd |
Thanks Tuboo. I agree with your comments about SS v Tubes...ultimately we are looking for what we feel is "real music" (not SS or Tube), and i also agree that the best of each technology do trend towards that singular goal. Beyond that, the ultimate way of getting there is different for each person.
To all those who have been so helpful in their advice: i have not formally committed yet to anything...but expect to do so quite soon fingers crossed. Just working out the details. Fingers crossed! Will post if and when done. |
Hi Tuboo, Downunder and all the many great A'Goners out there who have contributed to this particular forum. After reading, speaking, auditioning a number of great products, I have gone for the Gryphon Antileon. It arrived yesterday and is delivered tomorrow! I am considering matching it with a PAD Dominus PC but will start with the stock cable for now..
Having listened carefully to many great systems and remembering what happened when I replaced my CJ PV14L with the CJ Act2, I realized that there are a number of qualities which the Gryphon delivers that I think will bring me closer to 'where my ear is taking me'. It will be nice to hear my system with the Gryphon for a much longer period than a brief audition...to really understand how my system has changed. Cannot wait! And it's a long weekend!!
Thanks again for all the great advice. Will report in!! |
Hi Darkmoebius. Thanks for your thoughts! I do not know this product and will look into it. I know that Musical Fidelity has their superchargers which sound like they do the same thing but "supercharging" amps. I do not know the technology but I did see at least two reviews which were both a little mixed on the success. (Basically, more grunt and volume...but a loss of the refinement from the original amp standalone). Your recommendation may well be better solution. Thanks again. |
Tuboo,
What power cords are your Antileon owning friends using? I have read PAD Dominus Ferox which is my goal. I think Gryphon use Siltech? Someone else recommended Transparent Ref PCs...I do love their reference speaker and interconnects which run throughout my system. Thanks for your advice!! Lloyd |
Thanks, Tuboo! I learn every time i read your posts. As for dominus ferox, if you have specific recommendations on other PCs i should consider, please let me know. I am thinking transparent reference, possibly Gryphon's own VIP or Siltech. Your thoughts/recommendations are most welcome! |
So at long last...the Gryphon has landed! She's been running for about 30 min...so far from warmed up. Initial reaction? 1. More detail than my CJ MV60. I now even more fully appreciate how good the CJ was (already left it with London store to sell). The level of detail is greater which I love, but I it is pretty stratosphere levels which aren't necessary to really enjoy your system. CJ had good dimensionality and spaciousness. Gryphon again better but CJ stood up well. 2. Surprising amount of the purity of tone I enjoy about tubes. 3. Now here's the part where the Gryphon struts its stuff...RIDICULOUSLY fun amounts of unadulterated power and control!!!! Wooo hooo! My neighbor 2 floors below came up to say he could "hear and feel" the track in his apartment...oops! Sorry...got a little carried away playing Deep House music! 4. As it nears 45 min from cold start (ie no power at all...not even standby) it continues to gain purity of tone...my Zanden DAC takes almost 4 hours to reach peak so I am used to this. 5. I love this thing. Wow. Back with more later. Gotta change the track and continue testing a bit... |
Ok...almost 3 hours warmed up, and the Gryphon concedes nothing to the CJ...betters it in every way and I loved the CJ for 9 years. Plus it adds a power thru the mid and upper bass that the CJ had no ability to do.
Notes:
1. The realism has increased...my test for this is to go into the next room and listen. When it sounds like someone is singing next door, that's my "unscientific test".
2. What I find most remarkable about this amp is it truly is as powerful as (at least I) could possibly want. No strain at volumes that punch thru 2 floors of concrete block apartment bldg so the neighbor comes upstairs afters 3 minutes to complain.
3. But it retains the purity of tone which is what I first found so amazing when I first heard tubes (and immediately bought that day in the store...CJ MV60). Many SS amps have great drive, but the uppers have a hardness I could not get used to.
4. I find it hard to dissect the sounds...more focus on the music which I enjoy. I also find it harder to play just the first 30 seconds of a track to test things...instead I want to hear the song.
5. Finally, the amp almost feels like it can do all of this while truly playing different parts of the music in more the way I imagine the artist may have originally played it. For example, bells don't sound like an afterthought anymore...they sound like the artist used them for a reason...to emphasize a passage or a tempo change. I suspect much of this is a combination of much greater dynamic range than the 55-watt tube amp I had (good as it was)...and the added, tremendous control and accuracy that allows the amp to keep all the different instruments going at the same time in their own space, rhythm and relative volume.
7. Overall, this is an amp of remarkable quality. I am grateful for the opportunity to own one (at a good s/hand price) and enjoy music. After all, that's what this is all about in the end.
8. Thank you to every single person who helped shaped my thinking. As you can see, I spent 9 intensive months talking, reading, consulting and listening...and changed my mind from originally wanted powerful tubes (as this forum is titled) to going SS Class A.
I will continue to both post and read throughout AGon. All the best. |
Watch me!...hehehe...Trust me, when I pushed past 71 on the preamp and got my neighbor upstairs, I was trying to see if I could make it feel like a club in my apartment. It worked!...but a little extreme! There's loud and then there's deafening just to see if the system will crank. Guess it does...;) BTW, Jeff, that's a nice system you've got there...enjoy! |
Hi Tuboo,
I have now spent 12+ hours listenin carefully. Answers to questions I have been asked:
1. Biasing. I tried low volume at 50%...on pre-amp that goes to 99 and where 71 will deliver volume to punch thru 2 floors of concrete cynderblock to disturb my neighbor, once I past 19, I found 75% was necessary to feel like I had full class A.
Once I got to 30...the level most audiophiles would 'start' their true auditioning, you really want 100%. The technical differences are almost non-existent in the sound...but 100% really does have a sense of naturalness that you 'feel/sense' rather than articulate just by hearing differences in decay or added detail, etc. But you definitely feel it intuitively.
The nice thing is that you can almost gauge how much class A you are using by the heat dissipation. When the amp starts to steam, the volume is low and the amp is burning off 'excess Class' via heat. But when volume is cranked up enuf, the unit starts steaming less and becomes like any tube amp. For me, I find 38 on my pre-amp is where I find the unit heat very normal and therefore enuf class is cranking music as opposed to dissapating heat.
2. I was shocked to find that the Strads were not getting nearly as much help now from the Velodyne DD-18 as I thought. Wow...the 2 10" cones on each speaker are really pumping now, and if I mute the Velodyne, it shocking how little I miss it. Maybe 5% extra for most House tracks! On the other hand, because I am a bass freak, I find that on certain tracks, that extra bass really adds a quality, visceral touch that is indescribably satisfying. Plus, on movies, it's killer.
That's all for now. Hope that helps. Thanks!! |
Tuboo,
To try to give you a (slightly) more 'objective' sense of the biasing options, I would say that once the volume requirement surpasses the ability to stay in Class A, it sounds like very high quality solid state. There is a slight hardening of the treble...and because this is an extremely wide bandwidth amp, you really feel the treble harden when the volume breaches class A in the lower 2 biases. That said, it is still very good SS...much purer to my ear than a top level krell...but for a tube lover (who is expecting absolute purity of tone and a natural sound), I do feel this difference. As I said above, the technicals (decay, accuracy, space) will be nearly indistinguishable between biases...but I definitely "feel" the difference. Because I play at 38-50 on all music, I leave it on at full bias. According to Gryphon, the amp draws 800 watts from the wall...a lot but not horrible in the context of a home. Hope between the posts above and this one that you get some idea of the differences in biases. |
Thanks Tuboo. I will say on full Class A, the sound does not harden at full volumes. But it will on the lower biases when class B starts to get introduced...just slightly. Of course, once you get to a certain point, it is these very slight changes which are important in the never-ending search for 'true sound". I am doing some reading on the Less Loss. Thanks for the advice! |
Hi Emre...great system!!! It would be fun to compare the sounds of our systems which share some components and 'themes' (Strads and Class A/very high quality SS) but have important differences as well (DCS/Valhalla vs Zanden/Transparent Ref). I noted your 'upgrade plan'...what are you thinking for speakers after Strad? I am contemplated (someday...) Alexandria 2, Rockport Arrakis/Hyperion. That said, there is something about the Strads at the moment where I am in no rush at all to upgrade. I was very impressed with YG but would be very careful to listen to system synergy for that one because it is so precise a speaker. Thanks for your thoughts!!! |
Hi Kops, thanks for your advice!!
My system for your review/advice:
- Zanden DAC 5000Sig
- CJ Act 2 Pre
- Gryphon Antileon Amp
- Trans Ref IC Cabling
- PAD Ann Contego/Dom Ferox PC for DAC, Amp.
I have heard great things about Stealth Dream from the person whom I am buying PAD from.
Typically I look for organic midrange first...and then expect high powered bass, clarity, accuracy, etc next.
As a result, I went for Zanden, SF Strad, PAD PCs...however, I was "educated" after hearing Krell Evo One and Wilson Alexandrias...which really take an approach of accuracy, pitch control, etc first...and ended up creating one of the most musical systems I've heard in a long, long time.
So your point about Stealth (which I was told is more accurate...PAD more organic)....could well be a good thing for me.
Any further thoughts now that u know my system are very much appreciated.
Lloyd |
Kops,
Also...what in particular stands out in your mind about the sound of the Stealth Dreams PC with your Antileon...vs other Power cables...and what other cables did you audition? Thanks! |
Thanks George! That is very, very helpful. You have given me much to consider. I have always like the CJ Act 2. I also liked the Arc Ref 3 (which is balanced).
As for cables, I have spoken to my dealer who sells both Dreams and PAD. He walked me through the cable options and their pros and cons. After much discussions, he recommended I listen first to PAD Anniversary Contego. I will report back when I have rec'd the cables and burned them in a bit. Thanks again!
Lloyd |
Thanks, George. That is really good to know. I have spent a lot of time with ARC...Ref 3, VT100, CD3, 5 and 7. I respect them all tremendously (except vt100 which I think is not up to the level of the other products ...nor is it expected to be) ..tremendous detail, a sound that is 'technically organic' if that makes any sense. Almost an oxymoron...but that is my impression. ARC comes at music from technical side (great technical accuracy/detail) and in most recent products made music extremely well. CJ comes at music from "sense/emotional" side and gets technicals mainly right but not always. Zanden is same and I love my Zanden DAC.
I generally prefer CJ sound but admit to finding (only) the latest ARC products extremely compelling competitors...with the balanced outputs of the Ref 3...that could be worth auditioning.
Lloyd |
I am now breaking in a PAD Ann Contego for the Gryphon Antileon and PAD Dom Ferox for the CJ Act 2. So far, the sound is clearly breaking in still...40 hours so far. Soundstage is bigger, images are more solid, more dynamics. I want to wait til it breaks 100 hrs before I weigh in completely. The PAD Dom Ferox for my zanden has been great. |
PAD Contego is fully burned in...immediate improvements. Soundstage is much bigger, more powerful, yet with a detailing and presence that remain organic...more organic than the stock cable. But perhaps the best change is the lower noise floor...allows the sound coming forth to be music. |
Update:
- Changed my equipment rack. A 300 lb custom rack, 3" Birch ply sides
- African black sapele veneer in high piano gloss finish
- all on top of a 1.5" thick slab of slate...but decoupled
- the sound is tighter, more controlled, the soundstage much deeper.
- nice one!!!
- also added HRS damping feet under my Zanden DAC. |
Well, i finally did it...i upgraded my Strads to Wilson X1 Grand Slamms...the one speaker i mentioned a couple of years ago and several posts back would be the only speaker i would upgrade to.
Stunning beyond all belief. It actually beat my Strads for sheer musicality/organic touch...something i was unprepared for. while at the same time, doing all the expected things...enormous dynamics, extreme bass, detail...
i suspect one of the reasons is effortlessness...this speaker more than any other i have heard shows no strain at any volume, dynamic or signal. once it shows no strain whatsoever, it allows any signal to come thru and pass right thru as if the speaker were not there...hence the music seems to flow straight thru.
just one person's experience! Enjoy everyone! |
