Powered speakers show audiophiles are confused

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Meridian

Bryston

Dynaudio

JBL Synthesis

That’s a good idea I think it would be fun making appointments to listen to equipment but I’ll feel bad because I have to buy my upgrade from the guy who is going to buy my building so I don’t want to lead another audio dealer on. What is the proper etiquette for that? Thanks for your patience, I really do appreciate it.

The proper etiquette is just tell them the truth upfront, this is a community of people that are passionate, they will likely be upfront with you as well and most people in the business I met want you to be happy. Even if you don't buy something now you might go back later, change your mind, or refer a friend.

This is Meridians assault on cost no object and I think they will compete with anything else you audition:

I don't think you can find a speaker that measures better than the JBL M2, you need to audition it just to set the JBL bar. It used in both studios and the Synthesis line of high end home theater:

The Dynaudio only offers wireless as a convenience, you would wire them for best performance:

To dismiss these because of the price is a mistake, matched with those 900 watt monoblocks you should listen to compare.

https://bryston.com/model-t-active/

@donavabdear , in this hobby the law of diminishing returns kicks in hard. You will get 90% of the performance of what ever is at the top of your pyramid for something like half of the price or less. This is why you need to compare different price points and brands. I would only use the matching amps that come paired with the speakers in the auditions.

@donavabdear ,

It would probably help if you provided some more information:

• What brands does the dealer you must buy from carry. No point us suggesting stuff if not on their franchised list.
• Are you planning to do anything with your room in terms of treatments?
• How much time are you willing to invest in room correction, not just pushing a button, but playing with and adapting curves to your listening experience?
• When are you going to get those bloody subs fixed so they stop buzzing? 😎 -- sorry had to throw that one in.

FYI

For anyone reading this thread that is looking at all ranges of budget this is a good video on powered speakers over $1000:

That is a marketing video from an online retailer. No complete in their coverage nor free from bias. They have a broad line, but these appear to be some of the only active speakers that they carry.

At around $20K all in the JBL M2 is less money than the Steinways, the Meridian, and even the Bryston, but are those other speakers better (especially $80K+ better)? Diminishing returns are a real thing to consider. Once I got the JBL 230's that use trickle down tech from the M2's hooked up to the right electronics I lost all desire to change. Are their better speakers? Of course, but I just didn't feel the need to change anything as I love what they do. The M2's have influenced every speaker coming out of Harman (all brands) since they became available:

Here we have a "blind" comparison between an M2 system and the Revel Salon2. Guess which one wins, handily:

The conclusion:  http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2907816-speaker-shootout-two-most-accurate-well-reviewed-speakers-ever-made-12.html#post54628832

The whole thing: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/speaker-shootout-two-of-the-most-accurate-and-well-reviewed-speakers-ever-made.2907816/#post54546472

PS- You could also pair the M2 with Mark Levinson amps instead of the crowns to take them up a notch:

The pro version of the M2 is packaged with Crown amps rated at 600 watts per channel plus a separate crossover. The whole package for two speakers costs $20,000.

The $46,000 consumer package shown at the CEDIA Expo combines a pair of M2s with four Mark Levinson No 531H 300-watt monoblock amps and an SDEC 3000 digital EQ/crossover. The SDEC 3000 also allows an installer to do room correction on the speakers.

FWIW, even the JBL 230’s are like a mirror, what you put in is what they reflect. The slightest change upstream is reflected downstream, probably worth the amp upgrade' See if you can audition the M2’s with the ML amps. If not you will still be pleased with the crowns.

@kota1 
This video seems like the way I want to go except better speakers, he spoke interestingly about law of diminishing returns near the beginning. I definitely agree with using synergy in equipment but then again I got the Naim / Focal headphones. I'm going to listen before I go with my big system. Last night the system I have now was completely quiet even the subs, infuriating just when I was going to throw $15k of subs in the street they get quiet, oh well. The 9hs with the JL Audio subs are pretty good I was listening to some Magico M3 speakers in Las Vegas and my 9hs with the subs were much better except that the Magico's had no subs and it's lower end had a better transition but not even close to as much punchy and effortless low end, the Magico M3s are just under $100k my speakers I have now are definitely better than those.

@thespeakerdude The dealer Im going through has been doing high end for 30+ years he can get just about anything he would have no problem with Macintosh and Sonus Faber, not sure he could get JBL, long ago JBL did have some very good high end speakers, I've always liked them.  I have a good room and it doesn't need much at all that's why all the DSPs I've used do practically nothing. I'm going to make my own absorption panels simply for a little less reflection in the corner and then put up some curbs on the ceiling for both systems then some damping in the book shelves behind my speakers might just put books in them they work perfectly. I'm also going to get a remote with a timer for my Sub Zero refrigerator in the kitchen in my listening room it's really noisy, I can turn off my air conditioning but it's really hard to get it quiet while it's running I just turn off the whole thing when I want to really listen. As far a money I don't care I want to have a listening system that is an event every time I listen to it. My wife wants me to buy the system I want (crazy I know) she says at least I'll have something the money won't just go up in smoke in the stock market.

 

I’m going to listen before I go with my big system +1

I auditioned a Mac MB-50 streamer with Paradigm speakers and an anthem amp at a local dealer. It sounded great. There will be no bad sound in any of the stuff you audition. We are talking an "end game" speaker and after living with active speakers for so long I can tell the difference with passives. It is like coming off the line quickly in NASCAR, actives have that jump factor, instant on power for me. Plus you get MORE for your $$$ going active. HOWEVER, I would gladly place that mac/sf setup in my living room, I just couldn’t part with $100 G’s when I knew I could get that Meridian system instead or five M2’s for bed channels in a home theater .

I am laughing because those monoblocks with tubes/solid state for biamping is the same concept Bob Carver came up with his current/voltage connections in his Sunfire amps. Granted these Mac amps are much better but Bob was waaaay ahead of the game as he conceptualized this more than 20 years ago and for a LOT less money.

@kota1 That is funny, Carver was definitely ahead of his time he just had a professional line of PA speakers and mixers that were really bad, I'm sure it wasn't his fault but still his name was on it. 

My BHK amps are tube front end and MOFSET back end that is actually a better system for an amp to sound better if it's connected to a passive or a hybrid speaker like my 9Hs the mid and high end are amazing the mid is a large beryllium cone, maybe 7 inches, even the expensive speakers aren't doing that, the 9h has fixed the edgy sound of the beryllium tweeter by using the grid in front of it, against my better physics judgement but it works.

The Macintosh amps are perfect for bi-amping but what if I bought the Macintosh 900 then also used my BHK monos for tri-amping the Sonus Faber Aida how much latency would you expect, I'm not sure if there are any digital circuits in those amps, and time alignment is of course very important. The Aidas are so beautiful I may not have a choice, I'm falling in love with their looks.
 

If you are going to rely on the room the way it is, get a speaker with a wave guide for the dispersion is controlled. The results will be superior. The Aida is recommended to be at least 6 feet from the front and side walls to fully use their "depth" gimmick. Sorry I meant control.

The Macintosh amps are perfect for bi-amping but what if I bought the Macintosh 900 then also used my BHK monos for tri-amping the Sonus Faber Aida

It would NOT be what you say you want...matched. I have no idea how you fit BHK into a matched system, no BHK speakers. Your professional instincts KNOWS what you should do. You are entering play time after years of focused listening. I would stick with what you know works for BIG purchases and then play with tweaks like power and cables.

Remember to audition those flagship Meridians in addition to whatever else you audition. 

@kota1 ill try the Meridians but I think Speaker guy is right, even if Macintosh owns Sonus Fabre I don’t think these units are made for each other. One reason is because the Mac 900 is basically 2 amps welded together it weights like 180 pounds it’s a tube amp and transistor amp worked together, what’s smart is tubes for mids and treble for bass, What I’m not really buying is this simply a gimmick could I buy 4 amps separately and do better or did Macintosh build this amp as a more synergistic low / mid treble frequencies, impedance, load, timing issues in mind. And of course the main thing the crossovers are in the speakers, this amp is not made for the speaker if it was the crossovers would be outboard and line level.

@thespeakerdude i do have enough room for 6 feet around the speakers, I wanted to ask you what you thought about the depth gimmick, I love the physics and the sound of rear facing speakers and this design seems smart just a bit of mid and high frequency. With the design of the Aida the rear facing drivers don’t have a very big wave maybe 2 feet at most (500hz) not long enough to contaminate the front waves. Hearing the sound bounce off the back wall is key to creating a real sound source, Omni speakers have that quality.

Also Kota so well said this is playtime after 35 years of being totally focused on the most minute details of sound and now I want an amusement park of enjoyable listening.

even if Macintosh owns Sonus Fabre I don’t think these units are made for each other. 

I see those Mac amps in the video, giant mono blocks, huge amounts of power. Of course it makes you want that amp, who wouldn't. You got bit by the Sonos Fabers, wonderful. I think that is a wonderful combo for anyone wanting a two channel setup.

But, it isn't active, it isn't inexpensive, and not really matched like Mac speakers would be. For an end game speaker I would have to have the amp, the crossover, the drivers (ideally individually powered in an active setup), and the room all match. If you want to use your BHK both th M2 and the Bryston active use outboard crossovers, NP.

Also Kota so well said this is playtime after 35 years of being totally focused on the most minute details of sound and now I want an amusement park of enjoyable listening.

I get that in your posts, balance both. Be a pro in your shopping experience and an amusement park in your listening experience.

@kota1 exactly, that setup wouldn't be what I would like but as I keep saying the only system that is designed like I think it should be is the Steinway, they say it may be the best there is but I don't want to set up 2 sets of main speakers in my listening room if I want to see a movie or listen to Atmos music. The Steinway system is absolutely its own deal, I spoke with my dealer he hasn't even herd of any hacks that would allow Lyngdorf equipment to jump in. Yes very frustrating the best practice of building sound systems for the home is not followed in the kind of system I want. The way around it is to buy really good equipment, this is what I did in movie sound, I think I had the most expensive sound equipment of any sound mixer, this was always a good investment for me. "do the best mixers have the best equipment or does the best equipment have the best mixers" this was a saying I often thought of. 
Ok moment of truth in our friendship.....How do you feel about cables?

@donavabdear ,

Are you going to be using these speakers as part of a larger multichannel setup or purely 2 channel?

I have had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with the MBL101, perhaps the "ultimate" omni-directional speaker (I think they have one higher). I admit, when I first started listening to it, I was like OMG, this is amazing. However, the more I listened, the more diverse the music, the more I felt OMG, everything sounds the same. It started to feel like a surround sound mode on a $1,000 AVR that you could not turn off, or perhaps some of those really awful ATMOS remixes that are out there. It started to sound fake.  Yes, real sound sources are often omnidirectional, but we are not listening to sources, we are listening recordings in space, that space not being our listening rooms.

We discussed previously in this thread speakers that have true cardioid patterns using acoustic methods or additional drivers. They can be placed right against a wall. This is not that. This is artificial ambience. That is not a bad thing or a good thing. Sometimes it will be good, sometimes it will be bad. Shame it does not have a remote to turn it off.  I think if this is part of a multichannel setup, and not just stereo, the inability to turn it off may not be good.

@kota1 I think has played a lot with upmixing of stereo to ATMOS?  On your setup @kota1 how flexible is that? I.e. how much control do you have over the ratio of power from the original two mains to the other channels which I assume is a simulated ambience?

@thespeakerdude I have thought a lot about the MBL speakers and for exactly the same reason I crossed them off. When miking orchestras you put the mics hopefully in the sweet spot of the instruments, French horns being the hardest, but I don’t listen to much classical, some but my system won’t be made for that. Omni speakers are wrong for that reason and because that’s not the way we record and expect instruments to sound now. It’s a little bit like looking at a beautiful actress in real life without makeup or the same actress with 170 people on a movie doing everything they can to make her look better than she really does. Multitrack recording was not cool for a long time until that sound was what was expected, all the musicians in a room with a stereo mic above the conductors head is the coolest and bravest way to record an orchestra but it won’t get you called back on the next recording. That’s why omni speakers are the coolest but not. How in the world did you get to listen to them, I’d give a lot to listen, guess I’d have to go to Munich. In a way that’s why the Aida speakers make sense. What is your view about their gimmick ?

Ok moment of truth in our friendship

After going through 22 pages in this thread now you tell me?😁

As for cables, I get the best bang for the buck addressing power(conditioners, cables, harmonics), then digital, then interconnects, then speaker cables. I start from the power first, and then the sources, then the speakers. Any constriction in the front of the chain impacts everything that comes after it. ⚡

I think has played a lot with upmixing of stereo to ATMOSI.e. how much control do you have over the ratio of power from the original two mains to the other channels which I assume is a simulated ambience?

In Atmos upmixing you set it and forget it. With Auro-3D upmixing you have precise controls. You set the size of your room, how dynamic you want the height channels to be (from 1-15), and the type of content you are playing back.

Dolby does have one setting called "center spread" which you need to engage for music upmixing so everything doesn't get dumped in the center channel.

When I want an amusement park I think of going to a club. All of the immersive upmixers can recreate a club like experience in your room. Set your processor to upmix in Dolby Surround, make sure center spread is turned on in settings, then check out a mix like this one from mixcloud. If you want to check out just one song listen to the last 8 minutes of this mix, with upmix engaged and crank it. If you start from the beginning its great too. I prefer mixes to playlists:

Some music just lends itself to be better upmixed, when I am done with the club and want to chill I can groove for hours with a mix like this amapiano music. You won’t get the same experience with two channel, you might like it, but not the same.

and if you like old school clubbing amusement parks, so many great songs in mixes like this one that I knew, but had forgotten about. Upmixed in immersive is better than AM radio back in the day. Like hearing them for the first time:

Well I can't say I ever heard that music in clubs back in the "old day".  Old school often seems to be what younger people think older people listened to, not what we actually did :-)   I liked that first mix by Takanome. The amapiano mix by DJRobbiez was not my style, too laid back. Not judging, just not what gets me going.

Unrelated to our topic, but clubs seem to be finally rediscovering the importance of good sound, not just loud. You could see a shift about 10 years ago. Back in the mid-late 80's, top DJ clubs would spend a fortune on their sound systems, not just going for loud, but going for really good sound, no matter where you were in the club.  As the 80's turned into the 90's, it stopped being about songs, and was just about the beat. Didn't need to have a good sound system, just needed lots of bass. As the 2000s shifted into the 2010s, that started to change again.

@donavabdear , every once in a while I get to hob knob with people with a lot more money than I have.  On the Aida speakers, I think you will love the rear firing speakers on some music, and hate it on others, and may dislike it when listening to surround material. Wild guess here, it may frustrate you that you cannot easily turn it off with a remote. Seems to be a knob adjust. As a professional who often will know how something "should sound", you may be more critical about an artificial presentation.

@kota1 Cables, if they are so important leave them out and go with powered speakers. What I don’t understand about cables are 2 things one is digital cables they carry signals that are 1s and 0s the wonderful thing about digital is that it’s very easy to handshake between a 1 or a 0 as opposed to an analog signal which needs to handshake in a completely variable way which is much more difficult. AC cables do not reservoir power and then let it out in a particular way, well capacitors do that not AC cables. How do AC cables help in-between molex and a fuse. This question is a little like if you put a fire hose in-between two garden hoses is it going to achieve a better quality squirt. AC wire in the house is usually Romex then moves to a wall connector then to your $10k AC cable then to the back of your amp then to a skinny fuse then more connectors then to perhaps a trace on a PC board or wires that go to a heavy metal transformer where the AC is changes again. Speakers cables are the same, I’ve never heard how inserting a very short and expensive piece of wire will help the signal when on either side of the wire is of much lower quality, how can inserting a cable change the output on the other end? What I meant when I said I want an amusement park I want my system to be memorable and special experience. Definitely not electronic dance music, I like many different kinds of music but opera and dance music is last no the list for me. Jazz is on top and luckily it maybe the easiest for speakers to play and the most well recorded genera of music.

@thespeakerdude I don’t think I answered you Yes I do want to use the new speakers in the 2 channel and in the home theater system. I sent my BHK preamp back to PS Audio today hope they can get rid of the noise. I hooked up my amps to the Lyngdorf processor and it was simply not as good.

OK with our view of powered speaker having obvious advantages one of which is a more simple signal flow, how can I justify a preamp making a system sound so much better, my BHK preamp (hybrid tube) really makes the output sound like it has a little bit of beautiful reverb on it, it simply sounds more pleasing and beautiful. But the signal path going through a preamp is often unnecessary and adds complexity, how can it make the overall sound better?

@donavabdear 

What I don’t understand about cables... 

Will never be learned in a chat room. You have all that education, pick a vendor that seems you can relate to, and start auditioning. Stick with what you use in the studio, they can't be that bad. Go back to the thread on Add-Power and post a question for @cohsystms , you will be happy you did.

@donavabdear , you know you should not make me say this, but I will. You need to set the Lyngdorf to perfectly flat, volume match it to the BHK pre, and then compare them with someone else's help so you can't tell which is which ... but you can't do that cause the BHK is noisy so you will always know which is which. I only have the Stereophile test report to go on here. You can tell from the frequency response graphs that there are some frequency based compression artifacts. The frequency response changes when the volume is max. Distortion is a bit high. Stereophiles tests are pretty basic so I can only guess on much. Enough distortion is most evident caused by bass, but revealed in upper bass and lower mid-range. That could be warmth, or it could just sounds louder, even volume matched in the mid range. Still not going to rule out that it is because you know it is there.

Don't use the saying better sound. You mean the sound you liked, at least at the moment you were doing the test, and with the music you were listening too.

Maybe it is just the noise :-)

@thespeakerdude What do you know about Audio Research equipment? Because powered speakers and even synergistic design philosophies aren't available at a the level I want, seems like Audio Research has a really good reputation.

I honestly think audiophiles don't want to mix and match so much audio equipment if a company came along that made closed systems they could do very well especially at the start, this is why so many have said Steinway systems are the best in the world and they are in the $150k to $550k range not really as much as the best systems. After the first few systems came out the rabbit would be out of the bad and all the research for the manufactures would go out the window. I don't know the answer but I'm being forced to just buy the best I can and hope I don't buy a stinker like the Stella.

One more question for you Speakerdude what do companies do with their research speakers, I'm in love with a new AMG GT that is a prototype by Mercedes it will never be produced, but what about speakers where do they go when the manufactures say well this prototype sounds to good and it's to expensive, and how can I buy them?

Of all the people in this thread yakking it seems like @kota1 and @brianlucey are the only ones that have their end game systems. It is a bit shocking that in this thread the consumer end game system is digital/active and the pro end game system is analog/passive. Who saw that coming??You need to find what you like, then dive in. If you don’t know what you like, go shopping. You don’t find your end game system (or for @thespeakerdude ANY system) in a chat room.

@donavabdear , you gotta get L-C-R channels that have matching surrounds and height channels or you will be back in this thread moaning. Tell PS Audio to keep the BHK, time to change it up. For that kind of scratch you can can do better.

If you like jazz apple music has a lot of GREAT Atmos mixes of classic artists. Check out Oscar Peterson’s "We Take Requests" or any of these:

@donavabdear, 

Your JL Audio CR-1 active subwoofer crossover, any takers? I'm interested.

If still up for grabs ... PM condition, age, and price please.

Regards

Sounds good and looking forward to @donavabdear. 

Where'd you go?

Another winning active speaker, PMC. You could buy this system in the morning, install it in the afternoon, and have "Best of Show" sound in your living room that night. People that are whining and moaning that they can’t find good active speakers are not looking very hard. PMC makes both passive and active speakers so if you want to keep your toob amp go for it:

@donavabdear

Because powered speakers and even synergistic design philosophies aren’t available at a the level I want

Put these on your audition list:

@kota1 Now your talking thanks.

Anything that ugly has got to sound great.

@donavabdear 

I think they're unique - in terms of looks. Not ugly. Simply looking at the woofer cover tells us that we are not dealing with an ordinary speaker. 

PMC speakers are great ! tonally accurate, detailed, and will tell you the truth about a recording without going overboard.

They are very popular in studios. Same with JBL horn speakers, TADs, and ATC speakers. That's because these speakers are marketed towards people in pro audio; and they actually fulfill that purpose.

So if anyone were to knock these brands for any reason; yet the music you're playing on your own system sounds great, you can safely assume that one or more of the above speakers from/brands were used in the final stages of post-production. Otherwise, lots of mastering errors and even mixing errors that were never corrected.

@donavabdear

You are the only member who went to the Academy awards for the work in sound you did. You probably have very good trained listening skills. Why you like to choose speakers without listening to them is about as ridiculous as buying a six figure car without a test drive. When you audition listen to the flagship model first to set the bar and save time. Then compare the other stuff in that brand to the flagship (like you did with Paradigm). PMC has custom install speakers if you want to focus on room design.:

https://pmc-speakers.com/products/custom-installation/ci-series

Right up your alley too:

Anyone reading this thread who does NOT have an immersive system yet needs to watch the above video. This is NOT hyperbole. Those guys at Capitol Records went back to the ORIGINAL master tapes from their vault, listened to them and raised the bar. If you listen to the description of the engineer at :30 he says that an atmos mix makes the entire room a soundfield. I would say that the entire room becomes a speaker, its like the entire walls, the ceiling, EVERYTHING gets pressurized. When you throw ACTIVE speakers, into a well treated room, calibrated with a good DSP it is WOW.

@donavabdear , you don’t need six figure speakers to achieve this when doing immersive audio. I would take a room like this all day compared to a room with two sound cannons pointed at your head, but that’s just me.

Seven Bryston Active mini-T’s set up equidistant in the room with 4 matching active mini’ts on tall stands as front and rear heights. forget about it. I would NOT want the Model-T active towers and a lot of smaller speakers. In my setup I have 4 perfectly matched active 40’s as L-R-LS and RS, the matching center, and 6 matching active 20’s as wides (the 40’s wouldn’t fit) and FH, RH. You get that perfect of a match, throw in a tightly calibrated room and KABOOM, it is a, how you call it, amusement park.

DON’T get a jumble, match your bed channels with the exact same speakers if you can, same with height channels. You can make a great system with passive speakers but for me, active makes a better matched system like this.

Remember, the Bryston's use an outboard crossover so you can roll amps to your hearts content. Hook up your BHK toobs to the tweeters and those Bryston monoblocks to the woofers, whatever.