17 of 23 speakers in my studio and home theater systems are internally powered. My studio system is all Genelec and sounds very accurate. I know the best new concert and studio speakers are internally powered there are great technical reasons to design a speaker and an amp synergistically, this concept is much more important to sound quality than the vibration systems we often buy. How can an audiophile justify a vibration system of any sort with this in mind.
@donavabdear , My system is really very simple. I have a digital preamp that takes digital inputs from a universal disc player, the TV box and a Lynx Hilo. Connected to the Hilo is my phono stage, an Apple Mini, the Apple TV box and the Sonos connect. The Connect is hooked up to a very powerful router along with the Apple TV box. All the processing is done in digital. The processor is managed by a PC not the Apple mini which just plays music from a 6 TB hard drive. The processor has 4 DAC channels that power two speaker amps and two sub amps. The Hilo is a studio ADC/DAC mixer of amazing capability. There is nothing on the consumer market like it. As soon as it is released I will be getting a DEQX Pre 8, a full digital preamp with Room control, EQ and a 4 way crossover. It have 8 DAC channels. I may add ribbon tweeters to my ESLs.
As far as subwoofer enclosures are concerned a square or rectangular box is the worst design. The air within the enclosure is a spring. In the old days this was called acoustic suspension and like any suspension it has a resonance point. There are no standing waves within the enclosure. The enclosure wants to expand and collapse. Each size panel now has it's own resonance point as they flex and that resonance point can be up in the midrange! Put your hand on the enclosure while the sub is handling heavy bass 30 Hz at 90 dB. First put your hand on a corner. The vibration you feel there is the enclosure moving back and forth from the Newtonian forces generated by the driver. Next put your hand in the middle of one of the sides. Here you feel a combination of the enclosure moving back and forth along with it expanding and contracting. A cylindrical enclosure is inherently stiffer and will be very resistant to compression and expansion. It will still move back and forth to Newtonian forces unless you mount an identical driver on the opposite side and drive it in phase with the front driver. This is called a balanced force design. You would have to double the enclosure volume resulting in a larger subwoofer but with the right modern subwoofer drivers you could still limit the size to 2 cubic feet excluding the volume of the drivers about another cubic foot. 3 cubic feet is not horrendously large.
@donavabdear, I was thinking about getting the new Jim Fosgate designed tube headphone amp The Aries from Black Ice audio which was demoed at this past CEDIA. They don’t have a price yet or a firm release date. I really like my Sony SACD/CD/Blueray player and wanted to try out their reference Signature line. I will likely get the matching headphones after I try it out as a DAC and a preamp. The DAC is a custom field programmable gate array and should be quite interesting vs the ESS and AKM DAC’s out there. This is why it has some of the features you don’t see on most DAC’s like the DSD remastering and higher bit rates on PCM:
DSD native (up to 22.4 MHz) DSD DoP (up to 11.2 MHz) PCM (up to 768 kHz/32 bit)
The fact that it has headphones designed to match the amp was a plus.
@mijostynVery good points, especially about the AES inputs, I'll look into that.
So I finally got everything working with my Genelec (analog speaker inputs) system and I was very happy even though the speakers have not been time aligned, I was playing test tracks and different surround sound formats for about 6 hours. Then I listened to my 2.2 system and there was no comparison the 2.2 was so much better, I mean better in a way that was not more accurate but better in a way that was nice to listen to and magical. Subs make all the difference I was very unhappy with my Paradigm 9hs until I bought the separate subs. The 9hs do have balanced Sub drivers but somehow on mine they were very unimpressive even with an adequate 700W amp in each cabinet. The external subs have a 3kW amp and shake the house that's important good base needs to be felt, I spent another 15k on nearly 40k speakers to get the bass right I'm so glad I did.
I think subs can be used in a square cabinet because the length of the frequencies are so long there will be no interference internally. Of course there are the old formulas that are ratios of speaker volume SPL of Frequency and volume the smaller the box the more power you need.
There is an old rule in recording called the 3 to 1 rule and it means the distance between the source and first mic is 1 the next mic should be 3 times that distance if you want less phasing.
To me, this rule (guideline) would factor around the typical fundamental tones of what you are recording, with the fundamentals being much more narrow than the extent of harmonics. With a speaker, and each driver working over a defined range, pointing in a specific direction, with the listener assumed to be at tweeter level, the problem would be more bounded. Remember MTM falls apart in the vertical direction if you are too far off axis.
With all the variety in our head shapes, I am not sure how any headphone can sound right "out of the box". Speaker and room to me equate to headphones and head.
@kota1Wow, I think you will be so happy with the Sony, Sony like Yamaha and other big companies can make very good equipment if they want to it's only a matter of approving the budget. Yamaha makes some of the best professional mixers ever. Why didn't you get a tube amp for your headphones, I have Focal and Naim but my headphones seem to accurate and cold not so fun to listen to. I hope you don't have the same problem, please let me know when you get that rig, congrats.
Much of the hobby survives on the satisfaction people get from spending money.
Too late, I just spent more money🎧. I wanted to try a nice headphone rig and have been thinking about getting a 2 CH preamp for my home theater. My active speakers have both RCA and XLR inputs with a toggle switch to connect two preamps. So, I pulled the trigger on the Sony Signature headphone amp/dac/preamp, the TA-Z1HES.
@thespeakerdudeWhen I started in sound we got to use a new technology called TEF (Time Energy Frequency) an acoustic computer made by Crown. It would show the acoustic reflections on the screen, we found that unless the speaker was next to a wall the main reflections are from the floor then the ceiling. We did discover that there were some walls that were very reflective, in fact reflected more energy than they were receiving which is impossible turned out if the wall was vibrating sympathetically with the frequency it could push out more energy, this was a new finding in acoustics at the time.
In a WMTMW speaker design the midrange drivers could be 1 foot from each other that is roughly a 1k frequency very important for vocals There is an old rule in recording called the 3 to 1 rule and it means the distance between the source and first mic is 1 the next mic should be 3 times that distance if you want less phasing. Looking at speakers this rule isn't followed at all especially in the WMTMW design. Physics is a tough competitor it always wins. Perhaps to audiophiles it's like not understanding that synergistically designed amps and speaker drivers are best practices, maybe they will never get it.
@donavabdear, That is a more intelligent design, the cylindrical enclosure in particular. It still has problems but it is much better than the stuff you see from Rel, ML and just about everyone else. Here is what I do not like. You can hand it a digital input but all it's outputs are analog so it has to have a DAC on each channel. It has a general digital output but that is all. I guarantee you they are not very expensive ones. The ideal system is run by one central digital processor with an ADC for analog inputs and a high quality DAC on the generated outputs after all the processing has been done. In my case, a 2.2 system, there are 4 DAC channels. This eliminates a lot of back and forth and allows DSP on all channels not just the crossover but full range room control and EQ capabilities. You also have more control over the DACs. You can even use outboard ones if you want. I still prefer outboard subwoofer amps. The Genelec is also not a balanced force design so it is going to shake. It is however a big step in the right direction.
@rick2000, many people could list their speakers, cables, dac. and amps for sale, take the cash, buy a set of Dynaudio Focus speakers, get an upgrade, and have money left over. I think they won't because it is too hard to let go of the OCD that often comes with this hobby. Fortunately their is a new generation getting into this hobby that will benefit greatly from a plug and play, value priced ACTIVE system like this.
Much of the hobby survives on the satisfaction people get from spending money. I don't know if that is variety is the spice or life, or whether people need to feel they are moving forwards even if they are moving sideways or backwards.
@thespeakerdudeI wanted to ask you about WMTMW it seems to not make sense but as you mentioned there are many great speakers that use this. Seems like the low and mid frequencies would interact a few feet out. no one would ever use a microphone setup in that form there would be to much phasing.
We obviously test a lot of our competitors, but these companies are not our competitors, so we would never test them, not to mention too expensive to purchase and tear down!
I expect how they behave is, like all speakers, room dependent. Over a range of frequencies, it should help with vertical room modes and since people are least likely to treat the floor and ceiling, from a practical standpoint, that could be quite a good thing. It's not going to replace multiple subs for room averaging, but it may help a bit though my mind says watch for peaks and valleys with varied ceiling height.
@rick2000Dynaudio is really on to something, I listened to a set of them and instantly it sounded warm and happy, to me speaker evaluation takes about 5 seconds or in a system between components and speakers about 1 second, just after the first note. Dynaudio speakers do that for me.
@rick2000, many people could list their speakers, cables, dac. and amps for sale, take the cash, buy a set of Dynaudio Focus speakers, get an upgrade, and have money left over. I think they won't because it is too hard to let go of the OCD that often comes with this hobby. Fortunately their is a new generation getting into this hobby that will benefit greatly from a plug and play, value priced ACTIVE system like this.
@thespeakerdudeI wanted to ask you about WMTMW it seems to not make sense but as you mentioned there are many great speakers that use this. Seems like the low and mid frequencies would interact a few feet out. no one would ever use a microphone setup in that form there would be to much phasing.
@mijostyn , if your forecast is true about the Genalec sub great job, license your designs to them and get a royalty. I have never seen a sub in what appears to be a tower, I like the idea of getting the driver off the ground.
371A is -6db at 23Hz. It does have a potentially high cutoff as it is not intended to be an independently positioned sub but integrate as the bass section with The One series speakers. The high cutoff is to improve integration as a stack and allow flexibility in directivity. It has two drivers, the smaller one, by necessity, is at the top close to the higher frequency drivers of a stacked unit on top for proper integration. The larger driver handles the deepest base.
It’s 134lbs plus whatever is on top. The reactive force from the motor in the top driver will only marginally move the enclosure. Any resultant sound from that will be so far down it will be totally inaudible. The only concern is a mechanical resonance but Genelec is hardly new to making speakers. The "Newtonian" forces are relatively low and less than most think. The cabinet will only vibrate if poorly designed. Dual opposing woofers makes for much better marketing than improvements in sound. There will be things audibly vibrating in your room, but it won't be your speakers.
Many flagship speakers are WMTMW with a large woofer on top.
@mijostynI didn’t buy that Sub because of exactly the reasons you said. These are the subs I got they are still a bit odd looking. That speaker is not a sub it is a woofer. 50 to 500hz
@donavabdear, I have a complete digital workstation and have complete control over everything. It will tell me the exact timing errors of every group. Everything is on a simple wireless network. Only important equipment is hardwired. It seem to be way less complicated than what you are doing judging by your description. I did not need anyone's help to do anything. I have a system in the shop, one in the garage and another in the workout room. They all run on the network and I control them all from a phone.
@kota1, I hate to sink your ship but that thing you showed us is an indiscriminate vibration machine. That is a terrible way to design a subwoofer enclosure. That enclosure is going to resonate it's back side off. The Newtonian forces generated by that driver have considerable leverage over the enclosure. The end result is that enclosure will shake, vibrate and that vibration is distortion. Subwoofer drivers need to be as close to the floor as possible with the bulk of the enclosure's mass behind the driver to neutralize those forces as much as possible. Even then, if the driver is not counterbalanced by an identical driver pointed in the opposite direction the enclosure will shake to some degree depending on it's mass. Look at my current subs on my system page. The 12" drivers are low to the floor and the enclosures are made of Corian and weight almost 200 lb. They still shake which has prompted me to build a new set using opposing drivers and an even stiffer method of construction.
I am looking at the Ones and can only imagine what that 134 pound sub must be like 😎 Obviously overkill for a HT but like how they couple it with the monitors for a full range solution.
@thespeakerdudeVery well said, my center speaker is horizontal not vertical but it doesn’t matter because the speakers are point source the way things are in real life. Speaker imaging is more important than I thought, I thought it was phasing especially near field reflections, perhaps I’m wrong about that. With microphones it is always a compromise choosing between directionality and off axis coloration. Omnis have perfect off axis response but poor rejection to unwanted sound. I always use the widest polar pattern possible to keep off axis coloration to a minimum and to not pull in unwanted sound. Amazing how speaker and microphones mirror each other.
@donavabdear, it is amazing what near perfectly flat speaker response on-axis will do for imaging. Don't let the room screw it up and you are golden. This is the flaw and the trap people fall into thinking they can use room correction / DSP to fix the speakers. The accurate imaging with speakers is almost always near field with a perfectly flat speaker response.
Big disconnect w.r.t.. knowledge, specifications, and setup to achieve imaging. So many "ideas" about how to place speakers, toe-in, etc. without those people having a good understanding of what is under the hood and what is happening. (Not saying you).
@kota1Also I wanted to send you this about the new Genelec speakers, I was not a fan of Genelec for 30 years I thought they were very harsh and poor low end. these new speakers are totally rethought. They make some amazing claims like "The new flagship of The Ones range, the 8361A offers the most advanced acoustic performance of any studio monitor on the planet." I have the model just below this one but they are made the same. Last night when I was panning the front speakers I literally had to reach my hand out and touch the center speaker to make sure it was off the imaging was nothing like I’ve ever heard before, I thought there was something wrong with my speaker patching. The first note of music is still getting me I don’t really know why, I think the transient response is so fast it plays with your brain, but that could be imaging also the high and midrange is point source with plenty of power the low frequency comes out of these strange outlets on each side of the speaker, this is the first time I’ve really seen High and mid frequency drivers work so well together.
When you look down the grocery store isle and the first thing that comes to your mind is wow that is a beautiful woman then you notice that it’s your wife, that’s a really good and honest reaction. This is happening to me all the time when it comes to this system, I know it doesn’t have strange and boutique parts but all the parts are designed to go together from the start of the signal to the end so they seem to work synergistically in a surprising way. Design from start to finish is so paramount that’s why I hope powered speakers are discovered by audiophiles, in a few years of acceptance they will take off in very beautiful ways.
@kota1I have been searching for scripts but haven't found one that is just right, also I lost a ton of money in the market last year so my big movie planes are paused for now. I'll get it back and get things going again soon enough, I hope all my equipment isn't obsolete when I do. Even though I don't do sound professionally anymore It is still a real rush to have the mixing equipment in my listening room, I still have bad dreams about doing something wrong on the movie set so I guess my heart is still thinking about sound and it's a good feeling to be connected to people in the audiophile world and the professional sound world just for my post retirement emotional life.
@donavabdear, yes, I did see you lowered the Genelec CC from above the monitor and its now in line, nice. Even if it takes 2 more months to get things calibrated just right, that is still half the time it took for tech support. It will be amazing to mix your movies on one system and then play it back on your HT. I guess you can test your principles of how film mix transfers to a HT and have a watch party when you are done. Do you know the guys at the Dubstage studio? Sounds like you will be ready for some new projects by February.
A friend of mine just got some Dynaudio Focus 50 Active Wireless speakers and we both are Amazed at their Sound ! OMG We have never heard Sound Quality like this from a home stereo system AT ANY PRICE ! OMG Bargain of our Lifetime ! OMG Only $11K A Pair ! We now know that Active Wireless speakers are the future of speakers ! Long Live the New KING of Speakers...World's BEST :
@kota1Oh man Avid tech support was very professional, kind, understanding, and they didn't have any experience with my system. I bought Pro Tools Ultimate, a MTRX Studio, an HDX system and an S4 Control surface. Everything is networked and my house has a big network multiple roughers hard line big WiFi 6e transmitters. When networks get that complicated the tech support is just guessing. What happened 90% of the time is after 5 hours talking to the Philippines I just gave up and tried everything I could think of sooner or later I'd get it right. Did you see how I lowered my center channel speaker in your honor, my Genelec system not the home system?
I have so much time alignment to do now, all the speakers are networkable and hook up to the computer and a system called SAM but that means running more network cable everywhere but then the system will time align and frequency align everything just right it is a brute force way of setting up a system not an elegant acoustic room fix system like my Lyngdorf theater processor. Next I have to switch all the Genelecs to run AES rather than analog signals, they take both and I need to send the Pro Tools system to the Lyngdorf system so I can play Dolby Atmos on the Lyngdorf setup as a monitor switch using Dante, kinda the ultimate luxury to have a good home system as a test for the movie mix. Probably 2 more months.
Yaaaa! After 4 months and many hours on the phone with the tech support my mixing system is all working. I still have weeks of testing to do but I’m so happy. I put on my reference music Katherine McPhee "I Fall in Love To Easily", I worked with her and was in the studio for some of the recording and mixing at Capitol Records in LA , I also worked with her as an actress on the TV show Scorpion for four years, she also sat at the sound cart every day on the shooting stage, I know her voice perfectly. My other song is Diana Krall "Some one in love" strangely both albums were recorded by Al Schmidt. Anyway when I played back a few songs I could hear much more texture of both of the women’s voices on the Genelec -The Ones- powered speakers than I heard on any of my systems, I also definitely didn’t hear that kind of resolution in the control room at Capitol. Not saying better I am saying more accurate, the vocal microphone was a tube U87, same one Nat King Cole used and Frank Sinatra.
There will never be another time when I can have such a good voice reference and a unique experience to evaluate the end product of a recording.
I prefer and prioritize having just a left and right front channel with 2-way main speakers + 2 subs. That equates into 6 amp channels from 3 stereo amps with each channel dedicated and directly connected to its specific driver section and just short of 3kW in total per L/R channel (no different from what could, in principle, be done in a bundled solution, except for the need of subs). Sensitivity range from 97 to 111dB’s. Main speakers of my specific choosing, with no restrictions wrt. their size and segment. Subs of my choosing, DIY at that being 20cf. tapped horns aren’t readily available other than from Danley Sound Labs, let alone any domestic MFR. Amps of my choosing, with a pure class A ditto from ~600Hz on up and more prodigious power from class TD and A/B variants on down. Everything measured and tuned to my specific surroundings and sonic preferences. That’s the benefit of an outboard configured active setup, and something a bundled solution (from what’s practically available, certainly in the "hi-fi" realm), no matter how good, can’t replicate.
I have two amps (one 50w and one 125w) for 175 watts total per speaker. In essence each DRIVER has its own monoblock.
Times 13 active speakers = 2,275 watts. There is no way it would have been practical to fit the individual amps (even if I didn’t use a monoblock for each speaker) in my room. Another benefit of active.
Now, Anthem is Paradigms partner. Their 5 channel amp costs $3799. I would have needed 3 of them if I used one channel per speaker. I would have to use two channels per speaker to biamp, that means 26 channels or roughly FIVE of those amps X $3799 comes to around $19K. I am not even going to figure out what the speaker wire would cost, but it would be a lot.
I can make your system sound way better by using outboard amps and digital processing/crossovers.
Perhaps this is true in this specific case as these are old designs. However, it ignores the tight coupling of application specific amplification with the drivers. Using external amplifiers, no matter how good, does not address this.
@kota1, they are straight analog. Measurements is someone else's room does you no good. The measurements have to be taken in your room. Analog crossovers are distinctly inferior to digital ones. The ultimate approach is to have digital crossovers in connection to a room control system that measures the speakers in your room and then sends each driver the right part of the signal. You could also completely digitize an active speaker and I do believe some of the better studio monitors do exactly this. I can make your system sound way better by using outboard amps and digital processing/crossovers. Your speakers may sound better than similar passive speakers with certain components, I could not say. But, you can not beat the power of modern digital processors. The potential is there to any uncorrected system sound better.
@mijostyn, Paradigm no longer makes the Reference Active line of speakers. If they come up on EBAY they still sell for roughly the same price as they did when they were new. Their new PW active speakers and ShiftA2 are bargains IMO.
@mijostyn, I am using the XLR inputs for home theater. There is a toggle switch for RCA on the back and I have tried some two channel preamps so I can switch between HT and 2 CH preamps if I want. I can’t give it a digital cable.
Audiophiles just don’t readily accept the idea of their speakers being self-powered. But active loudspeakers have some distinct advantages over their passive counterparts. In fact, when I asked the designers at Paradigm which technology was better, active or passive (since the company makes both types of speakers), I couldn’t even finish my sentence before the word "active" was rushed back at me. There was just no second thought about it.
@kota1, the reason that the active Paradigms go lower is because the bass is EQed up. You can do that with the passive speaker and digital EQ. No magic here.
By the way, what are you sending to the loudspeaker? An analog low level line? RCA or XLR? Can you give it a digital cable, SPDIF or AES?
This is the confusion of speaker demos- you aren’t demoing speakers, you are demoing the room.
That summarizes it perfectly, and it ain’t just demos, its systems. I like going through the virtual systems area as much to see how members treat their rooms as for their equipment. My active speakers have contour knobs for bass and treble on the back along with a high pass filter. It comes in handy if I have a speaker closer to a room boundary than ideal or if I want to get better integration with my sub and in room bass response.
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