@kota1 you seem like someone who’s not in the music making profession, but someone who is very passionate and I appreciate your passion. A few things that you need to understand. 1. posting pictures of studios means nothing. Everything is done in the commercial world on a budget. Yamaha NS-10 mixed much of the best music of past decades 2. As I said to you in a private message, just now, Atmos needs cohesion ... more than it needs high-quality speakers. When I mentioned, DSP previously, that’s what I was talking about.
Those Genis are good not great speakers. Yet. Anything set up well can do atmos well. It’s easy to get so excited about the emotions from the format that we lose track of what makes a great speaker. The best speaker test is in stereo. Dynamics, phase distortion, amplitude, group delay, imaging, excursion, etc. Then when applied to atmos it’s even more amazing
As far as my credentials they are numerous, but for now let’s say I mastered 4 records this year nominated for a Grammy, and I have the only analog Atmos mastering room in the world at the moment. I’ve sent you a longer reply in private, so that if you want to fight with me, we can keep that off of the board.
here’s a link to an article about my room:
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@donavabdear I’ve been listening to studio monitors and hi-fi speakers for probably 40 years. 1. Your Genis are not very good in the grand scheme. The Geni Sheen is not accuracy it’s massive distortion from DA and DSP and cheap amps. Yet ... If you’re happy ? Great.
2. A Studio engineer needs no more than three pair to do great work, why do you have so many?
3. Speakers are in their infancy in terms of development. Amps are more evolved
4. The last 30 years of powered studio monitors have taught us that cheaper and cheaper amplifiers are what ends up happening with these pieces as they become more popular.
5. You mentioned :
Audiophile systems that are jaw dropping are not accurate they’re extra flavored and sound amazing but I needed the most accurate system I could get, money was not a problem,
So money is not a problem, humble brag noted, but you didn’t really buy a very revealing system. Not the most refined taste it seems
6. I’m from Ohio and I live in Los Angeles, please define "political refugee"? You mean you’re a Trump supporter? There’s a lot of Republicans in California.
If you want to combine the best components then you do it yourself. If you’re interested in the creative experience of making your own "playback instrument", as many people are, then you do it yourself. Simple
when it comes to a multi channel Atmos system, it’s certainly one option to do what you’ve done, however, my speakers are all passive, and they work extremely well, because I can use more advanced software on the way to the DA conversion. And there is far superior DA conversion then what comes in your speakers
what’s funny to me is you have a very high opinion of your rig, but you live in the world of Mid Fi
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@donavabdear I’m happy to see that you’re excited about the new format, I work in every week.I have a very high-end atmos and stereo room, and the only analog hardware focused, mastering Atmos room in the world at the moment.
Going back to your point it just doesn’t make any sense, the speakers you’re using are not anything special. If you think those are amazing, you’re not in any position to criticize any audiophiles for doing anything. I’m certainly not criticizing your speakers I’m saying that our evolution with understanding what’s possible or desired from a speaker is very personal and we always think we know everything at the moment we are in, and then things evolve.
Atmos doesn’t need special speakers what it needs most is cohesion. That can come from a balance of measurements and DSP, all depending on the hardware you’re using to run the system. And it needs good headphones. The beauty of Atmos is that it is the evolution of headphones. Atmos done well is superior to stereo and headphones, it’s a very rare bird right now, but overtime there will be more and more of it. The speaker component is fun and exciting and it’s a bonus, but it’s not the main benefit to Atmos, that would be headphones.
Am headed back into the studio right now to work on the biggest song of one of the decades last century :) ... enjoy your speakers, but try not to put people down, it really doesn’t make sense at all.
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@lonemountain happy to participate today, glad you're enjoying. @kota1 This thread is a relative newbies insult at the whole forum, so I have no problem with responding in kind. All of his equipment is (to me obviously) mid fi. There is nothing more to say. You love Genelecs? Great ! That is the whole point. To me? The whole line has always been mostly hype with a sound that lacks natural tonality, very processed. 1031's to present, same family sound. And yet if you love them that is all that matters. Speakers are like a romantic partner: if you’re happy, that’s all that matters and the rest of us should not critique another person’s place in the journey. I am not critiquing anyone personally when I say "mid fi" as my journey is way down the rabbit hole. Speakers are a tool, for listening or for working, they are not an objective fact. Arguing quality from specs or awards is very naive.
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@kota1 i came here only to refute this absurd thread. Not here to post pictures. None of the rooms you posted have the cohesion plus dynamics plus resolution plus DA/amp/cable quality here. Photos are PR ... means nothing. Atmos done right is 12 or more speakers where any pair would be an excellent stereo system. Cohesion is always DSP related. Could be external or internal. More or less depends on the system. Quality of DSP is huge. I use trinnov with passive speakers because ? It’s better. I use Trinnov in part to make my room sound like Evolution MM3 Exact x 12. Everything is about positive compromise. So many moving parts. Any dogma is foolish. The OP is lost. And rude. This thread is based on a rude assertion. Beware of those who are certain about hardware. Only certainty lies in our principles and process.
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@kota1 you have to understand that the world I’m in is even beyond studio high end globally. Studios are on a price / performance budget. Many use the DAD converters in the AVID MTRX. Awful DA. Compromise in commercial rooms is normal. This format is barely embraced, they’re just getting their feet wet. I’m in the audiophile world of 1%, so to me, everything else is downstream, no judgment. Come listen for yourself and decide as Apple and Dolby and studio engineers have done. I needed all the qualities of MM3 exact (great speakers) with Bricasti M1SE (3rd best DA ever made) and Allnic Audio A-6000 (best amp I’ve ever heard) x 12 plus Cohesion at the highest level. So when I look at someone saying something as absurd as a dogmatic argument for self powered speakers as superior and I mean any self powered speakers (they are all made to be cheap not best), I just have to speak up, that’s completely ridiculous. Anyone saying that is simply trying to sell you powered speakers or defend what they own. The most newbie approach is "my current speakers are the best" especially when they clearly have not done the work of AB all options for decades. This OP is a joke. Clueless. Rude. Your arguments about these Genis? Not very evolved thinking. They’re "sufficient" if done right ... not high end. Even as a stereo pair. Again you need to compare 2 speakers in atmos to 2 stereo high end speakers to get to the bottom of an atmos system. For me it’s a headphone format. Speakers are a bonus. I have a mastering grade system. Mixers or casual listeners will be impressed with less. I couldn’t use those Genis for anything. Ever. It’s a process of evolution. Enjoy the ride ! If you’re happy then listen. Don’t argue. Remember we are in the beginning years of commercial music in atmos vs 7 decades of stereo. It’s all evolving. As will you.
"audiophiles are confused" is rude. Flaming rude and stupid. Everything is DA, cable, amp, crossover, speaker parts. Quality and synergy and cohesion at all combos matters. No dogma. It's a cocktail. There is nothing else to say.
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@donavabdear Small minds see the world as dogma or polarity. Both accurate and musical is what mastering studios are about. Both. Mixers can use your speakers. My room would blow your mind. Mixers still use Auratones or NS-10. I’m not a mixer. What’s your name and credit list ? Naive and overconfident trolling from beginners or worse failed pros is what this looks like. My system is both accurate and beautiful. Top tier globally. Every room is one persons opinion. It’s a bias. We use science but music engineering is not a science experiment. It’s a humanity exercise. Connection. Not perfection. Yes I knew beautiful Al. And it’s spelled Capitol. I use Al’s personal dCS Bartok here every day ... for my headphone amp. Sits next to his memoir. Loved Al. Don’t evoke the name of the dead to make your ignorant point. That’s manipulative and wrong. Bricasti M1 SE is true high end. The Allnic A-6000 is better than the best solid state. Evolution Acoustics MM3 Exact and MMMicros are both accurate and beautiful. Acoustic Zen cables are levels above what’s in any self powered monitor. You’re who again ? Nameless troll? Fact is self powered speakers have zero intrinsic benefits. Except cost and convenience. Some are better than others but it’s just another imperfect approach in a world of imperfect compromises. Name and credits list please. What’s your equipment history ? Again sir, it’s about our personal EVOLUTION with monitoring. What you think you know today will change. Or you stopped thinking. Dogma is for fools. Come visit me anytime. Apple. Capitol Studios. Dolby. They've all been here.
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@kenjit Jesus. Brother can you read? I'm not claiming perfect. There is no perfect. Read the posts again. Lot of musical color in my room. Also a lot of accuracy. There is no perfect. No best room. No design dogma from me. That was the OP.
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@thespeakerdude again. Read slowly ... I am not opposed to any concept or any system. No dogma. However in the real world FULLY ACTIVE SYSTEMS WITH DA AMP CABLES SPEAKER DSP IN ONE TEND TO BE A COST ISSUE COMPROMISE.
Trinnov ... I used to make 7.1.4 sound like stereo mm3 with no DSP.
Are we clear?
I set up the trinnov to be AS INVISIBLE AS POSSIBLE ON THE L R
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@thespeakerdude you missed my entire point. Rudely. I was clearly saying no dogma. Ever. I'm not opposed to anything in principle. The OP made a dogmatic assertion. And a few points to your bad arguments. 1. MM3 is direct wire from amp to mid drivers. Parallel crossover. Low and high are tapped and yes adjustable. 2. Trinnov is used in 7.1.4 only. To do the geometry, the room and to match the natural curve of the LR. 3. The idea of correction is false. There is no perfect thus there is no correction. It's all about the best compromise based in taste. If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. It's all taste plus math.
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@donavabdear so no music credits ? No name ? Got it. You're arguing for your system being of superior design concept. I'm saying "if you love it that's great!" The rest of your posts are drivel.
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@donavabdear Thank you for showing some credits. It's not "beneath" me yet you are the one here saying things above others like you know the music world, and you just don't. For example: "Dolby Atmos was meant for movies not music." That's wrong. Atmos was INVENTED for movies, yes, and yet Atmos/Spatial on headphones is far superior to stereo in headphones. Unintentionally they made something unexpected for music. Big caveat: the work must be done at the highest level. The "highest level" is being discovered, daily, maybe by folks on this forum. Atmos/Spatial is the evolution of stereo in headphones. But we are in the beginning stage. Most of what is released is low level mixing, not mastered. Early days. I use transformer class A eqs x 50 in a great room with dCS Bartok and 3 top headphones. Beautiful format, in the early days.
As far as Trinnov, it's 100% tunable, and I am an advanced tuner of the system. It's doing DSP pre DA conversion, which is very subtle on my L/R mains. It's doing far more on the rest of the room. You are still arguing some odd point that this DSP makes this an "active system". Everything has a DAC, and I am not anti-active.
Again, all systems are a best case compromise, based in taste. And any dogma is going to be wrong. It's all about implementation.
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@mijostyn they are not "mistakes". You have an idealism and perfectionism basis to music that's not real life. Two speakers can't do the live event. Atmos is better but cant. It's an unreachable goal. What's creative and joyful in pop music since Bing Crosby relied on the early Altec "birdcage" mic to have vocal power and a career or Madonna relied on early Eventide vocal tuning ... was the freedom and possibilities of doing things that were NOT REAL LIFE. Your worldview is limited. I feel sad you're missing out on so many joyful possibilities. There is no reproduction. No perfect anything. It's all art. Craft. Personal. Music is a global and timeless language of connection. Not perfection.
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@lonemountain Some people want it to sound like it’s supposed to, the way Fleetwood Mac decided or Tom Petty or Lenny Kravitz. ATC enables you to get that, and you cannot get that with passives. You can get close, but not "there". Realism is what drives Billy Woodman- or should I say "low distortion", the doorway to realism.
Brad
This is 100% false and totally misleading. There is nothing solid and fixed about audio except the file itself, the rest is a moving target. ATC is no better than countless other approaches. It’s a choice, a flavor. Artists mix in a mix room on 2-4 speakers and their car. Then they are done. Mastering folks like myself use all sorts of room designs and speakers/Amp/DAC/cable setups.. ATC is not a reference, there is no reference. It’s all a moving target. On any day in the same room, humidity and temperature and our mood and hunger alters even our own perception of a file. Nothing is fixed, and there is no reference. There is only the file that is a fixed thing, and the INTENT captured in the file matters most. To have that intention translate to all systems is the goal of mastering. There are some lovely ATC mastering rooms, but they are not superior, or giving musically superior results. Just like active vs. passive, there is no right answer, no dogma here.
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@mijostyn sadly you’re not only wrong you’re wildly overconfident. There is nothing accurate about sound reproduction anywhere. Not your ears. Not any system. It’s all degrees and taste. Dogma is dangerous in life and in audio. Right or wrong is dangerous too. People with your worldview are antithetical to great music making and the enjoyment of music. Each person sets up a system with technical and subjective features. Nothing absolutely right about any of it. Let’s get that straight. Lol. Mental illness is the refusal to see grey as grey. People do this for clearly personal reasons. Ironically. There is no proof of a right vs. a wrong here. Rightness is another matter.
@donavabdear everything you’re saying is subjective. I would cringe at what you call the best work on your Genis. If you’re happy that’s all that matters :). A great listener doesn’t need the system to tell them what could be better. And there is no polarity of good : bad work. It’s all in degrees. A system that blinds the degrees is adding it’s own thing.
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@donavabdear you bought a brand. Not a great set up. Sorry to say. I’m happy to suggest DAC amp / headphones options given a number. For 8000 you can do better.
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@kota1 I never took headphones seriously either until Atmos. It's really important to understand that we do not have any releases in this format that represent the highest end of the format. Early days. I'm working in the format every day right now developing techniques and what's clear is that great Atmos sounds just like stereo in terms of cohesion ... but better ... bigger, and more dynamic. 99.999% of what's on the market falls short in terms of cohesion never mind harmonic, distortion and frequency balance. Early days.
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@thespeakerdude A few things, 1. flat is not useful or preferred. We like a little low bump and high end cut, assuming a pivot at 1k. Flat responses leaves people with no way of working except fear based perfectionism, which is antithetical to great music recording. 2. Translation is the job of mastering, and it’s a skillset ... again see: 1. If everything was about flat response a robot could beat a great mastering job. Doesn’t happen. You are living in polarity: pleasing vs. accurate, and that is a false paradigm. You are imagining, from your own concern aka fear (as stated above) that human emotions and preferences are getting in the way of great recordings, and that is backwards, they are ESSENTIAL to great recordings. We can be passionate and technical at the same time. Both at once is mastery.
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@donavabdear This statement is from idealism and perfectionism which are fear based, and this statement is false. "ultimately sound being recorded as accurately as possible rather than sounding better subjectively is best practice." You’re trying to take human emotion and individuality OUT of the process of music, Music is about connecting humans, and that happens when humans are emotionally engaged and the sounds represent that. Music making USES science but music making is NOT A SCIENCE PROJECT. You and @thespeakerdude are both missing the point of music making and music playback. It’s a balance of both subjective and objective. The balance is our choice, and the skill and taste of the chooser is #1 in music recording.
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@mjoslin13 Again perfectionism is an imaginary ideal. It’s a narcissism of our own imagination. There is no perfection. And in music production there are no mistakes. Teams of people make choices. Positive compromises. Your mind is on display in every post. I don’t have to guess but yes that’s my job daily. Making music sound its best to the most people on every possible system. I know how folks think and listen. It’s not about a live event. That’s another illusion of older aged audiophiles. I’ve heard the best systems. Still sounds like recordings. And creativity in production for decades takes us beyond a live event as a goal. Very small thinking. Very old. I’m sure your system is not perfect. Although I like those John Curl Parasounds for my atmos surrounds. And there is no perfect music. No imperfect music. I’m sorry your life is this small that you need this illusion. A craftsperson seeks the highest standards yet knows perfect is an ever illusive goal. Clearly you have been mistreated along the way and are taking refuge in the illusions of perfect and mistakes. High standards are real. They are not perfect. They are taste plus math. Positive compromise is the essence of all music creation and music reproduction. No dogma. No absolutes. Principles and practice diverge. Sorry. It’s a more uncertain reality than right and wrong.
@vinylvalet yes. Brad is the ATC rep. In Vegas. They do a great job at customer service. A friend for 20 years.
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@kota1 respectfully I will add a few things to your post… I’m a musician long before being a decorated engineer. I’m looking at a 1930 Mason Hamlin double B that’s one of the best pianos in the world, and a room full of instruments that are mine as well from the past. I’ve helped companies like Bricasti and Mytek, to create some of the best DA conversion in the world. I have 1 foot in and 1 foot out of every category here. The thing about a lot of these posts is either it’s an argument for a certain conceptual approach, or a defensiveness about our own purchases, or a look for confirmation of what we’re doing from insecurity … And all of that is the wrong way to go. The right way to go is to understand that there is no perfect, there is no right or wrong, it’s a subjective journey that involves both our taste and a variety of scientific choices that all stem from the notion of positive compromise, meaning that we get the most and lose the least. The notion of right and wrong is completely opposite and narcissistic, as if there is any external standard. So the real challenge of putting together a system is that it has to come from decisions that only you can make for yourself… This is the world of artistry. This is where the two worlds dovetail. Music making uses science, but it’s ultimately a personal decision and putting together a system uses science yet it’s ultimately a personal decision. I science serves the process, it doesn’t dictate the process And anything outside of that is a trap. Music makers and music listeners all have the same goals: connection, community, elevation. Joy. It would be a simpler world if it was possible to come to such things by following directions from outside of ourselves, but that’s not the truth. Enjoy the ride :)
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