Poor value vs snake oil...

Well put, Mr. Mahgister. Heading out to look for copper tape.

The copper must always be on the external side of the application....My best to you Sir....  :)

denverfred

I like your post...

Placebos is constitutive of human experience and has nothing to do with snake oil... Snake oil for me is crookery, thieving someone by selling him crap... Snake oil exist, but accusing many audio industries to sell snake oil is totally mistaken most of the times...

The reason is simple, ANY "generic" electronic design must be "specifically" embed, namely any electronic component must be used with controls methods in the mechanical dimension, electrical dimension and in the acoustical one to give his S.Q. potential...If not, the electronic component cannot gives his best...

What is the value of any review comparison of a dac in a bad controlled acoustic, even if the dac was measured by state of the art engineers?

I read most reviewers with a grain of salt.... When i started to understand that, i embarked in my systematic listenings experiments...

I will add something: a bunch of branded ready made tweaks is NOT and NEVER will be a method...

With a method of listening and a methodical investigation in this 3 embeddings dimensions, you dont buy a bunch of costly, ready made tweaks, instead you create step by step your own devices, perfectly adapted to your audio system, to your house, to your room, and to your listenings habits.... My point is that cost PEANUTS....

And it is this fact that almost nobody want to believe, even less verify with their own creativity...People wish that their money is sufficient to buy heaven.... It is not always the case because wether the best electronic component cost more money, or wether there is a lack in the controls embeddings of the costly products you already own whitout even knowing it...

Dont buy if not necessary, dont upgrade first; think and embed it all ....Listen between each steps... At the end enjoy a paradise created in part by your own hand ....It is more rewarding and less costly....

:)

:)

I must say that i like mushrooms a lot....But my hallucinations comes from my speakers....Help me doctor....

:)

What’s the relationship between SO and placebos?

Before my systematic listening experiments to increase my 3 embeddings controls quality, to improve the way my audio system was integrated in my house, many upgrade of parts, or buying of few tweaks, introduce changes that were small but there in some way, placebos or not...

SO(snake oil) and placebos qualifications are linked to a SINGULAR product and his SINGULAR effect.... The audible effect being small....We can ask ourself, was this change real enough? An is this change worth it and the amount of money invested ?

After my upgrading spree during some years to buy the best audio component i could buy, i was unsatisfied...Despite all these changes and upgrades, the question: are these changes real enough(placebo) and worth my money stay with me ?

But for the last 2 years taking the work in my own hand, i begins a set of methodical listenings experiments, and something change, a step at a times, EACH WEEK, incrementally better, coming first from the mechanical embedding , and after that from continuous improvement in my electrical and acoustical embeddings...

All my controls device are cheap and homemade, i developed my 3 embeddings methods , and EACH WEEK, for the last 2 years i has seen a tremensous increase in S.Q. with the same components, listening to the same known files...

My homemade controls are not snake oil nor placebo....Placebo enter in ANY experience anyway, it is a natural bias in ALL human experience....And i sell nothing, my idea are free and are there to convince people that good Hi-Fi experience may cost low money, contrary to a widely assumed opinions by most...


But explaining a set of continuous changes in the same direction by placebo explanation is like saying to a culturist exercising each day that his muscular mass increase is the result of placebo effect only.... For sure if you want muscular mass increase the mind set is important, and working with something about which someone says to you that it will be helping is a good "bias" and a welcoming positive placebo.... But you know that the muscular mass grows with real working not  mostly by hope and bias that  may help and will help tough....

I know that my device controls gives me the audio system i was dreaming of for all these years ....Not my positive mindset only , but my working with the electrical grid and the complex acoustics of my room with passive materials and active devices...

If not, placebo is not the right word to use about me, hallucinations is better...

I am then an " hallucinated audiophile", i prefer that branding to this trivial placebo accusation.... Placebo is eveywhere anyway, it is constitunional of human experience; very good S. Q. is not experimented in all audio system tough, even after many placebo upgrade or buying....This is my experience only....

My best to you.... :)

This is a dud thread.
It is just a regurgitation of the measurements vs. ears story.

It is a bit too premature to ask for the end of something without even knowing what we speak about...

This is not a measurement versus ears theory thread....

The Essential point in audio is precisely that this division and separation makes NO sense at all , between ears or measures...

A correlation between ears and measures is mandatory for creation of sound electronic design...

A subordination of all electronic audio system measurements to the listening ears to embed it rightfully in the house, mechanically, electrically and acoustically, is the way to go....

All discussion of snake oil, placebos, etc are only red herrings most of the times for a simplistic arguing that will not adress the fundamental task in audio experience: how to embed an audio system the way it can reach his optimal S.Q. ?

So one man’s snake oil is another man’s value purchase.

In different and "specific" environments or houses, the same "generic" electronic components or the same electronic tweaks will reveal different impact in S.Q. and will reveal itselves different value from high to low value and even to snake oils value, relatively to the degree of rightful or wrongful embeddings in this particular house....

We cannot evaluate a product in theory or just with his measures numbers, we must evaluate it listening to it in a precise environment with different experiences from house to house.... Then which products is a high value and which is not is relative to the embeddings history of a particular house where we try the new products and also to the way we link it to the other products in the system....

Is it so difficult to understand?

Then you are right snake oil for one is a high value product for another dude, but this is not a proof that all is relative and indecidable in the absolute, but all is relative to a particular environment and a particular history with REAL ears listenings experiments to choose what is right for the moment for us...

Common place, platitude, tags, it’s all that we reap from these "snake oil" words . they are a red herring in audio thread....

I dont care about opinions except by those who listen and try...

I care about the creative people, the sheeps not so much, especially sheeps that wrote all day about " snake oil" in audio thread....

It will be better to speak about ratio price/ increased quality.... More constructive, more clever, more creative and less boring jokes....For sure ratio price/ quality in a minimally well controlled embeddings... 

« A boring joke has no author by definition»- Groucho Marx

Too simplistic...

How do you evaluate a product that has a poor value in a poorly embedded mechanical system and room, in a poorly controlled electrical house grid, and in a badly controlled acoustical room, but a great value otherwise in an another optimally controlled house?

And dont speak about measurements.... The S.Q. of a greek theater is measured immediately and easily by any ears, but way less easily so with any device....

Audio quality is NOT reducible to electronical design and measurements at all....Except for too simple mind marketers...

:)

There is poor value and good value , the border between the 2 is revealed only by a rightful embeddings...

Without rightful embeddings of an audio system there is no way to distinguish even snake oil and poor value product...

Then it is a bit more complicated than you assume all that to be...

:) Sorry to be so complicate myself.....



« Simple, life is comnplicated» -Groucho Marx

Snake oil in audio compared to any other problems are minor one first...

Second, in an audio thread i dont want to read criticism without basis on any audio tweaks, except the evident recognized one by those who has experienced and bought it...

I am interested in low cost methods, homemade, retro-engineered one, to increase the S.Q. over the roof for peanuts....

It is possible for all, except for those who cannot think about it because of "dogmatic" attitude or because of their blinders....Those who cry " snake oil" on the roof and bought costly branded names in audio, and said to all the others: " you see these are all snake oils tweaks, dont buy these crap, buy genuine mesured branded electronic Hi-Fi design...

This message is the worst "snake oil" marketing lie, worst than a costly cable to me....They will give you their blinders free of charge.... :)

This message cut you from your creativity, cut you from your listenings experiments, and gives you the totally false impression that Hi-Fi experience is linked to price, and are inccessible to most... this message transform creators in a passive  mass of sheeps consumers....

I own a very good audio system that cost me years of fun experiments, cost me peanuts, and i bought nothing else, creating my own homemade very low costs controls device for the 3 embeddings....

Who sells snake oil here and lies? Not those who you would think about at first if you were a newcomer in audio experience....

Beware newcomers, not only to snake oil, that kind of overprice products exist indeed; but beware even more of the "dogmatic snake oil hunters", they are the one that will make you spend money in their Hi-Fi pit and myth....

« A thief think he is anything except a thief » -Groucho Marx

« At the end, and all along, you lie only to yourself»-Harpo Marx