It will be difficult to make this a welcoming place for engineers and scientists because they will quickly tire of the attacks of the Wikipedia experts and those enamored and convinced of the infallibility of their ears and brains, even though confirmation bias is well understood in psychology and the foibles of non-controlled subjective audio testing were put to bed by actual audio engineers decades ago.
The funny things is, actual engineers and scientists do far more subjective audio testing than these armchair audio athletes, they just do it in controlled situations with larger groups. When one of the audio athletes wants to prove a point, they will latch onto an actual scientific paper like a rabid crocodile if it in any way supports their position.
Audio press, many manufacturers, dealers, etc. are more than happy to encourage this mindset .... it is in their best interest as it helps sell their highest margin products, which drives advertising, which .... well you get it.
Take a count of how many threads there are about cables, fuses, power conversion, isolation products, and similar "tweaks". Now take a count of how many threads there are on acoustics and room treatments, and how few people have any significant knowledge in this area. A well placed $200 absorption or diffusion panel is going to improve sound far more than a $2000 cable upgrade, a few thousand in room treatment, more than 10's of thousands of "tweaks". It may not make the audio industry go round, but it is a path to the best sound possible for a given budget.
So how do you change things ... ask better questions? I don't have an easy answer, but I am sure it starts with the consumer. |
WHAT CAN BE ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE, CAN BE DISMISSED WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Your argument is easily dismissed as you have no evidence to support your position, nor are you willing to provide evidence via proving your claim.
Report thisgeoffkait17,625 posts10-22-2019 5:02pm
>>>>>Nobody is saying that the ears can’t be fooled sometimes. But intimacy with one’s system and recordings can help ensure not many mistakes are made. So, we can dismiss any psychological bugaboo, whether it’s being psyched out, confirmation bias, placebo effect, reverse placebo effect or whatever other mumbo jumbo terminology you like.
Yes, I have noticed your use of ad-homs when you are not able to address the argument. It is not something to be proud of.
"I’ve already used the term Wiki scientist, it’s what I labeled you, actually, so please stop using my material. Have you no shame?"
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See Erik, I rest my point. Any actual engineers and scientists in the audio field, are quickly turned off by stuff like this, which has no basis in fact, for which the author will be unwilling and unable to support with evidence .... With confirmation bias, placebo effect, and a host of other human foibles so well established (by actual scientists), one has to wonder both why someone would make an assertion like this that is provably wrong, and why they would not be willing to prove the assertion.
Report thisgeoffkait17,625 posts10-22-2019 5:02pm
>>>>>Nobody is saying that the ears can’t be fooled sometimes. But intimacy with one’s system and recordings can help ensure not many mistakes are made. So, we can dismiss any psychological bugaboo, whether it’s being psyched out, confirmation bias, placebo effect, reverse placebo effect or whatever other mumbo jumbo terminology you like.😬 |
You know Erik_squires, there is one thing that would make these forums, and most audio forums better. I am okay with being anonymous, in today’s "cancel culture" I don’t blame people.
However, I think if people have to clearly state whether they earned money from the audio industry, AND, clearly state the type of products they deal with and whether they are a MFR, dealer, installer, etc. then it would allow others on the forums to better judge for themselves whether self-interest was influencing a particular posters writings.
Here, I will go first. I currently earn about 25-35% of my income (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) from the audio industry, through my companies design consulting on advanced product design for electronics, acoustics, and signal processing and some dedicated test and measurement gear, as well as some royalties for past designs and we box-build some items. It all depends on the agreed revenue/business model with the client. I have previously earned 100% of my income in the industry doing similar things, electronics, acoustics, signal processing, and in management and sales/marketing. |
I have yet to see any "evidence" or "facts" presented, as least what would qualify as evidence or facts from an engineering / scientific stand point (you know, something that could stand up in court, or a scientific paper ... I changed it and I thought it was better doesn't count.). If there are actual degreed electrical/engineering physics/acoustic engineers and degreed physical scientists, please speak up. Love to chat with you ... p.s. I just rejoined yesterday. I have been here before, but left when too busy getting a company off the ground. Obviously based on the op's post and other posts I have read, his and my feelings are not unique. You may want to try being part of the solution instead of bullying.
cleeds2,479 posts10-22-2019 5:42pmroberttcanAny actual engineers and scientists in the audio field, are quickly turned off by stuff like this, which has no basis in fact ... So how do you change things ...
There are lots of facts here, but you don’t like them. There is a lot of evidence here, but not the kind you like. There are also multiple actual scientists and engineers who regularly contribute here. But you just joined yesterday, so you can be somewhat forgiven for not recognizing that. If you stick around, you’ll likely find some here who are even smarter than you. |
The second most important piece of equipment, after the speakers, is the room. Went to an audio show on a weekend ... room after room after room of disappointing and very very expensive systems. $30,000+ of Nordost, a $50,000 turntable, $100,000 of speakers and I have no clue how much of electronics can’t fix bad acoustics. Maybe the room the Teac system is in is pretty tolerable such that there is nothing "awful" to distract from the music. Sure, listening to my main system is a far step better, but I often get a lot of enjoyment from the Sonos 1's and 3's sprinkled around the house.
Report thisfrench_fries750 posts10-22-2019 4:43pm Why is it my ears don’t discriminate that much anymore? I’m not questioning the validity of the delicate nuances coming out of a great speaker system, but I can ALSO listen to music on just about anything. Except- an esoteric set of components that sounds unacceptional (but the "Watts" are certainly there if you’re hosting a house party). I think we all know the disappointment of hearing a demo and have to be diplomatic with the salesman who wants you to be amazed. |
Who is "the rest of us" ... asking for a friend
teo_audio1,151 posts10-22-2019 7:42pmTo the postulating and posturing engineering sycophant who is searching desperately for windmills in the mirror of ego:
It would be highly appreciated by the rest of us if you would cease and desist and take your leave.
thanks |
I will let Geoffkait hijack ...... |
Where I find that happens on Internet forums is where their degree is not in the actual field being discussed. Having a chem-eng degree does not make you an electrical engineer for instance (and vice versa of course). Unfortunately success in one particular endeavor in life often gives people the false impression that that success/expertise directly translates into everything else they do. It strangely hits mainly men of a particular IQ range that is above 100.
terry91,051 posts10-22-2019 9:26pm"If there are actual degreed electrical/engineering physics/acoustic engineers and degreed physical scientists, please speak up"
Well Robert, as a math type I find that some degreed engineers are among the hardest to take. They seem fond of quoting theorems that don't apply, and then replying to objections by saying things like, "Oh, we get around that by ..." See any digital thread.
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Oh great, now GK's going to claim to be a polymath! |
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Hey noble100,
I knew you were just joking, seems ---clearthink--- did not. I was just copying his rant and pointing out to him that Australia is the west :-) |
Hate to break it to you, but Australia is most definitely considered "the West" culturally.
clearthink930 posts10-24-2019 4:49am
noble100" He lives in Australia, he's constantly wrong, his wife's a kangaroo and he doesn't use a class D amp"
This is vile, hateful, prejudiced language, the wholesale, unconsidered denigration of those who live in another part of the world and you're conviction that you're "Western World" has achieved some sort of unusual excellence and superiority. |
