Phono Stage - The great analog tragedy

The Phonostage being a Tool to amplify sent electrical signal from my own perspective of today is not a Tragedy.

The Phonostage is the device that made using Vinyl as a medium user friendly, where it has been this user friendly attribute, that made having a range of Vinyl Recordings at hand attractive. The range of Vinyl at hand, developed into a collection that is readily at hand to be experienced.

Over time an side interest in Phonostages developed and as a result over a period of many years, I was able to audition a substantial amount of Phonostages, where different circuits have been in use, such a Valve Input/Output - Valve Hybrid - Solid State.

I don't believe I have a preference for a Circuit Choice for a Phonostage, I have been equally impressed by all three circuits types produced by certain designers, as well as being equally unimpressed by all three circuit types produced by other r certain designers.

In the next few weeks I will have a Trilogy of Phonostages where a SS Design is to be added and make Phonostage readily available in the three circuit types.

More importantly, I have the confidence to be sure, that there is not too much more that can be experienced in Phonostage Designs that can undermine my present thoughts on what is to like about a Phonostage performance.

Electronics Skills and Components produce devices that transfer electrical energy as an amplified energy, there is no sound to be heard.

Sound is formed at the Speaker and Speakers function at their best in the environment they have been designed in, the so called ' Worlds Best Phonostage' will meet limitations of how its processed electrical energy is perceived when it is converted onto sound. 

The World Best of one Device is dependent on being used in conjunction with the Worlds Best of other supporting devices needed to produce the end sound, if the success of the designs are to be fully materialised - Yes / No ?

The TT > Tonearm are a Mechanical Interface, which to be the best interface achievable has to be optimised in their shared role of supplying the Stylus the very best interface when being in contact with the Modulation in the LP Groove.

The Tonearm in isolation is a Tool of Support Only, it serves to supply a method to place a Cartridge at a setting for a particular Geometry and enable the Cartridge to trace the Groove uninfluenced by the Tonearm, where the Cartridge is enables to be producing an unadulterated facsimile of the Grooves Stored Data.

The TT in Isolation, is a Tool to support the Hard Media that is containing the Stored Data to be extracted by the Cartridge Stylus from the Groove Modulation. The TT when functioning, has the role to ensure the mechanical parts are sufficiently supported in a rigid structure, the Spindle Bearing is a True Axis during the Spindles Rotation, the Platter rotates with no run-out, the Speed of the Hard Medias rotation is accurate.

Manufacturers of either of the above devices will have been mindful of the need to have a specific function and the need to consider tightness of dimension  tolerances to be maintained for the overall assembly of the devices to be used.

Being mindful of dimension tolerances does not equate to a design being absolutely optimised for its own function or the function in conjunction with another device. 

Slop between moving parts at interfaces in a assembly can be found in devices produced by the most renowned Brand Names from the OP's references to era of production.

At later periods of production when the knowledge was at the mainstream about the value of maintaining very tight tolerances, Long Term established Brands were seemingly slow in the uptake and not able to make the important choices to improve the quality of interfaces for moving parts.

Newly Established Brands proved to be the ones to address issues of variances of dimensions for tolerances and create designs using different materials and designs that proved to be advanced as a offered product to the Olden Designs still on offer and being used. Established Brands were forced through loss of marketing opportunities to conform to the latest designs from the new brands that were being presented to the market. 

Function of Tonearm and Function of a TT took on a new meaning when CD kicked the Vinyl Medium of the Top Spot in being a marketable commodity.

Manufacturers of Analogue related products prior to adopting their supplying CD Sources, did do quite a bit to produce items to be used for Vinyl Replays to be substantially improved over their earlier guises of offerings.  

  In my own experiences and within my budget, the most advanced work being achieved that I am familiar with, is offered by individuals with adept skills for improving a Tonearm or TT's Mechanical Function and Speed Function as their own bespoke designs, especially where alternate and more fitting for their purpose materials are introduced, along with the advances in material selection enabling the Machined Tolerance Dimension for interfaces for moving parts to be substantial reduced.

Add to the above the added research put into improving the material used for sending the electric signal from the Cartridge and the whole becomes something unimaginable for the improvements being created. 

In the 70's I believe I bought my first Album ever which was one produced by the Monkees. The Group had probably disbanded when I bough my Album, but TV made them attractive to a young person.

In the 80's Vinyl LP Album collecting became much more intense, weekly purchases will have been common. 

In the Late 80's / Early 90's I recollect Stand Alone Phonostages becoming regualar tipics of conversation during the 90's I had a SS Phonostage commission built for me. This is still owned today and has been out on a Long Term Loan for more than 2 Years.

Nearly 30 Years Later I am having another SS Phonostage Commission Built for me with a different approach to the Spec's.

I am assured the Spec's being produced are very very high spec, whatever that means, I look only to  Power On and listen and not get too bogged down in the measurements.

My Wife worries about Valves used for Amp's, I am making available to her in her own requested pace for a System Set Up. My SP 10 MK II and the new SS Phon', will be loaned as a MM set Up with a Neurochrome Amp' and New High Efficiency Speakers. The above apart from the New SS Phon' will be gifted to her for her own Vinyl Replays when the home is refurbished and moved back into. 

I will get the 90's SS Phon' back as well to see how things have changed.   

The Sansui AU III is a commonly listened to by myself as an Amp used for driving Stacked Quads.

If I can say it has one advantage in comparisons to other same models that might have been heard by others. Which is where it has been fully overhauled where Components are concerned and Tube Rolled for across many Years. With the permutation for Tubes in use, it makes the option to Bi Amp with the spare AU III quite an expensive consideration.

The Phonostage on the AU III Model has been heard on different occasions with a range of SUT's or Head Amp's in front of it. Where during these occasions as a device for replaying LP's, it has proved as impressive a the Modern Day Design Phon's that have been loaned for use at the same arranged session.

Very experienced individuals with audio equipment, as a result of their listening to the Vintage Phon' have found criticism, only good appraisal has been shared.     

Being one who does not get too involved with the Math, but am one who does put a lot of faith in individuals who are totally understanding of what is required when getting involved with the Math.

It seems those with a Proper Understanding of the Math will be best placed to give the best advice as to what a Phon' can aspire to be today in relation to the measurements being taken and could what a Phon' could not be when produced during eras 20-50 Years in the past.

@pani Description being presented by yourself are quite askew.

I have been in front of Phonostages on at least five occasions where approx' 10 -15 Phon's have been brought along for A/B Comparison demonstrations, where Phon's to be demo's are built by Commercial entities, Commission Built or Built by Very Adept EE minded Types and then the New Builder Type as well.

Phon's on a Line Up have been typically SS, Valve Hybrid, Valve Input/Output  with a price range from a few hundred £'s to near $2K for a BOM for a Phon' and through to a Under £1K to £10K+ for Commercial offerings.

A Phon' producer who knows a thing or two about a Phon' for not many hundreds of £'s is quite capable to produce a Phon' with an end sound that is not separated to higher priced phon's when these fall into the under £4K price range.

With this I have heard Phon's with a BOM of near £2K be unapproachable in a comparison by Phon's costing north of £7K.

There is the odd Phon' at the highest price that has been capable to separate itself as a very very attractive option and if monies were not limited would be a consideration for a short list.

My own experiences have assured myself when it comes to the end sound being  produced only.

Where demo's that have been heard, has been on systems that can have a costing up to £200K. There are Phon's being produced for less than £1K and then extending towards close to £2K that are so impressive as an end sound, a little extended time in their Company would be so satisfying, why would finding another £8K to £10K need to be parted with to have a at hand musical experience that is not too separated from a much more affordable option.

It is the Person who has put their thought into the Phon' that really matters, and People only know what they know, being influenced by their limitations of know how.    

Subjective Assessment ( Evaluation or judgment that is based on personal feelings, opinions, and experiences rather than objective facts or data).

Subjective Assessment used by myself when encountering a 834p as a EAR Design or a Variant Clone Design has never been an experience where I feel compelled to make an inquiry about how the Model is produced and learn how to acquire a model. In my assessment, there is not a end sound produced that generates an attraction to myself, that is wanted to be pursued for being available as readily at hand to be used.  

Does the 834p fill a room with Sound that is able to be listened to and not wanted to be avoided? Answer is Yes.

The subject of Phonostages and only giving the designs credit as a result of subjective assessment, is going to produce a mass amount of models to be suggested. 

Objective Assessment (A method of evaluation where the questions or tasks have a single, clearly defined correct answer. These assessments are fact-based, unbiased, and measurable, minimizing subjective interpretation. They are often used to gauge knowledge, skills, and understanding of specific facts and concepts).  

As stated by myself in an earlier Post and now with a edit:

" It seems those with a Proper Understanding of the Math will be best placed to give the best advice as to what a Phon' can aspire to be today as a finished design. In relation to the measurements values that can be taken from a modern design and measurement values that was not possible to be taken when produced during eras 20-50 Years in the past."

The Phasemation E-350 is a Phon' that has been auditioned in a system that is not my own.

It has been used as a Phon' in a line up to be compared, it was new, only a few hours of usage.

As an experience and as an assessment, I recollect the 350 being quite impressive and was comfortable with the notion it was comparable in end sound produced to the most expensive in use during the demo's, which was a Valve Phono' with a suggested retail cost of near £10K.   

The 350 certainly was loaded on the back panel for options to attach to other devices, which is another Plus for it.   

Spec's across devices are not usually openly discussed at comparisons get togethers, the intention is to have a group Subjectively Assess the sound being produced in a particular system and environment.  

The following is from other Forums where a 1990's Design for a Phonostage is under discussion. Design For and a Few Specific Components, will be suggestions still remaining 30 years on as being the attractive options for a Circuit in the wider seen discussions had on a Topology for a Phonostage.

The Circuit seen in the Image is the First Phonostage I had produced as a commission build, it was tweaked by the EE as a circuit, also being populated with BlackGates and I'm confident a AD797 was the OP Amp for MC, the MM Ip Amp selected I can't recall. This Phon' changed my interest in listening to audio and using an Analogue Source for ever, it is the one thing that encouraged me to experience so many Phon's through out the years, the initial experiences of it in use had a profound impact on how I was to assess sound being produced.

The Phon' is still owned today and is usually let go for a long term loan, it usually remains a loan item until the user buys in the Phon' that surpasses it, even then the returned reports on the recognised foibles are a few points shared only. Audio Notes Andy Grove must have intended on producing something quite valuable for the wider community when this Schematic was released for others to build.  

The Phonostage is assembled by the same individual and now friend, who has Commission Built other Amplification for me over the Past 30 Years. During the same period of producing this Phon' for me, the EE had built their own Valve Design Phonostages for customers ordering a commission build.

One Valve Phon' Model was to end up being compared to Phonostages in Dealerships in the London area in the 90's, was able to cause quite a stir. As an end sound being assessed, the Phon's Owner was making it known there was not a demo' where it was not recognised by those who heard it for being the better Phonostage in use.     

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 During my explorations, I ventured into the realm of designing and building phono stages. It's a meticulous process, much like a watchmaker delicately assembling the gears of a timepiece. My reference, which I fondly call the "Oceanic Phono," is a testament to this journey. It's an interstage transformer coupled, valve rectified, 2-stage phono preamp, employing the venerable C3g tubes. And here's the twist – there are no capacitors in the signal path, except for those tiny silver mica ones in the RIAA RC filter. This approach, much like a painter using a limited palette to create a masterpiece, has yielded a sound that's velvety smooth, detailed, and ultra-low noise. With about 60dB of amplification, it's perfect for an MM cartridge, or, in my case, a delightful pairing with MC cartridges and exquisite silver-wound step-up transformers.

But, as in any journey, curiosity beckons me to new horizons. My gaze now turns to LCR phono stages, particularly a circuit published by the masterful Nobu Shishido in the mid-1990s in Sound Practices DIY magazine. Shishido's choices are intriguing, almost like a chef using an unexpected ingredient. He opted for two overly large 47uF capacitors in the signal path for each channel. It's an unorthodox move, considering the usual capacitor choices in such applications, limiting the qualities one can explore. Shishido used the now-unobtainable BlackGates, which, despite their exotic allure, are still electrolytics. They face stiff competition from MKPs and PiOs in the capacitor world.

But let's not forget, Nobu Shishido is no fool. His 300b interstage coupled "Yamamoto" amplifier is the stuff of legends, a creation that sings melodies of its own. His decision to walk this path must have been driven by a deep intention, much like a novelist choosing a peculiar narrative style to tell a compelling story.

So here we are, contemplating the Nobu Shishido LCR phono, juxtaposed against my Oceanic phono. It's like comparing two distinguished poets, each with their unique voice and style, yet both enchanting in their way. The journey continues, and with each step, I delve deeper into the heart of music, uncovering its secrets, one component at a time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlJxRYpv8UU&t=48s

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