Phono Stage - The great analog tragedy

A Cheaper Cartridge from a Range of Cartridges, with a time put into getting the Stylus on the money Zenith, Azimuth and the SRA to ones own preference, even used on a well used Vinyl, but quite clean is a difficult set up to better.

A TOTR Cartridge with failing in the Stylus alignment, especially the Zenith, will struggle to impress with Parity to the above, when used on the Same Analogue Source, Same Tonearm and Headshell, Same Support Structure and Mounting for the Analogue Source, Same Audio System Amplifying / Adding Gain to the produced signal, Same Speakers to produce the End Sound, Same Listening Environment.  

Keeping all things even for the Comparison the better aligned Stylus wins hand down any time as the most attractive end sound and the wanting of the End Sound to be kept.

I once heard a Cart' bought for a few hundred GBP as a Donor Model to be refurbished. The Cart' was purchased with a guestimate of over 1000 hours of usage when bought and approx' 1500 hours when demo'd.

The Cart' had extensive investigation to the Stylus set up, when compared to very well aligned much more expensive Cart' from the same Brand, the Donor Model Cart' was so much more attractive to listen to.

I informed my friend their new modifications to the Tonearm they produce, and the time spent on the Cart' Alignment, may have just shown that a Spent Cart' is actually a Cart' that is something quite special. Said Cart' remained in use once reintroduced for the rest of the session.

No Doubt Swapping Out a Phonostage will have created a difference to a End Sound produced. Would the Swap have evened up the differences discerned between Cart's? I think not, but as the Phon' Swap did not occur, I can't say for sure.

There are way too many factors to be included to be able to accept that an individual who has a experience of a Live Performance, be it Acoustic Produced Sound or a Sound from Amplifier and Speaker is able to accurately recollect and compare the experience, when the same Music is to be encountered as a result of it being reproduced as a End Sound from a Medium that has recorded music data embedded.

The Timeline between experiencing both types of End Sound, really does bring to the forefront the unique mental condition of the listener. It is impossible to believe they have maintained the same mindset during the period of delay.

It is impossible to suggest they are responding to each End Sound Produced with the same interest.

Mood is a very strong influencer on how sound is perceived as a stimulation and how Value is awarded to the Sound being encountered. 

Encounter a Live Event, along with the excitement and anticipation that is usually present, and experience this during the early hours of the evening and stay with the encounter to the later part of the night.

If the opportunity was realised to revisit the same Music as a recorded material a few hours later. Conjecture strongly suggests that fatigue and other influences like sobering up or tiredness or any other, will certainly make the extended period of being in ear shot of the Sound a more enduring / challenging experience.

In most cases if a Live Recording was to appear of a Event that has been experienced live, it can be months before the Live Recording becomes available to be producing and End Sound in a listening space. Is it fair to suggest the individual now listening to the recorded version of the event, is able to accurately compare the End Sound from both experiences had.  

  

The Phonostage being a Tool to amplify sent electrical signal from my own perspective of today is not a Tragedy.

The Phonostage is the device that made using Vinyl as a medium user friendly, where it has been this user friendly attribute, that made having a range of Vinyl Recordings at hand attractive. The range of Vinyl at hand, developed into a collection that is readily at hand to be experienced.

Over time an side interest in Phonostages developed and as a result over a period of many years, I was able to audition a substantial amount of Phonostages, where different circuits have been in use, such a Valve Input/Output - Valve Hybrid - Solid State.

I don't believe I have a preference for a Circuit Choice for a Phonostage, I have been equally impressed by all three circuits types produced by certain designers, as well as being equally unimpressed by all three circuit types produced by other r certain designers.

In the next few weeks I will have a Trilogy of Phonostages where a SS Design is to be added and make Phonostage readily available in the three circuit types.

More importantly, I have the confidence to be sure, that there is not too much more that can be experienced in Phonostage Designs that can undermine my present thoughts on what is to like about a Phonostage performance.

Electronics Skills and Components produce devices that transfer electrical energy as an amplified energy, there is no sound to be heard.

Sound is formed at the Speaker and Speakers function at their best in the environment they have been designed in, the so called ' Worlds Best Phonostage' will meet limitations of how its processed electrical energy is perceived when it is converted onto sound. 

The World Best of one Device is dependent on being used in conjunction with the Worlds Best of other supporting devices needed to produce the end sound, if the success of the designs are to be fully materialised - Yes / No ?

The TT > Tonearm are a Mechanical Interface, which to be the best interface achievable has to be optimised in their shared role of supplying the Stylus the very best interface when being in contact with the Modulation in the LP Groove.

The Tonearm in isolation is a Tool of Support Only, it serves to supply a method to place a Cartridge at a setting for a particular Geometry and enable the Cartridge to trace the Groove uninfluenced by the Tonearm, where the Cartridge is enables to be producing an unadulterated facsimile of the Grooves Stored Data.

The TT in Isolation, is a Tool to support the Hard Media that is containing the Stored Data to be extracted by the Cartridge Stylus from the Groove Modulation. The TT when functioning, has the role to ensure the mechanical parts are sufficiently supported in a rigid structure, the Spindle Bearing is a True Axis during the Spindles Rotation, the Platter rotates with no run-out, the Speed of the Hard Medias rotation is accurate.

Manufacturers of either of the above devices will have been mindful of the need to have a specific function and the need to consider tightness of dimension  tolerances to be maintained for the overall assembly of the devices to be used.

Being mindful of dimension tolerances does not equate to a design being absolutely optimised for its own function or the function in conjunction with another device. 

Slop between moving parts at interfaces in a assembly can be found in devices produced by the most renowned Brand Names from the OP's references to era of production.

At later periods of production when the knowledge was at the mainstream about the value of maintaining very tight tolerances, Long Term established Brands were seemingly slow in the uptake and not able to make the important choices to improve the quality of interfaces for moving parts.

Newly Established Brands proved to be the ones to address issues of variances of dimensions for tolerances and create designs using different materials and designs that proved to be advanced as a offered product to the Olden Designs still on offer and being used. Established Brands were forced through loss of marketing opportunities to conform to the latest designs from the new brands that were being presented to the market. 

Function of Tonearm and Function of a TT took on a new meaning when CD kicked the Vinyl Medium of the Top Spot in being a marketable commodity.

Manufacturers of Analogue related products prior to adopting their supplying CD Sources, did do quite a bit to produce items to be used for Vinyl Replays to be substantially improved over their earlier guises of offerings.  

  In my own experiences and within my budget, the most advanced work being achieved that I am familiar with, is offered by individuals with adept skills for improving a Tonearm or TT's Mechanical Function and Speed Function as their own bespoke designs, especially where alternate and more fitting for their purpose materials are introduced, along with the advances in material selection enabling the Machined Tolerance Dimension for interfaces for moving parts to be substantial reduced.

Add to the above the added research put into improving the material used for sending the electric signal from the Cartridge and the whole becomes something unimaginable for the improvements being created. 

         

In the 70's I believe I bought my first Album ever which was one produced by the Monkees. The Group had probably disbanded when I bough my Album, but TV made them attractive to a young person.

In the 80's Vinyl LP Album collecting became much more intense, weekly purchases will have been common. 

In the Late 80's / Early 90's I recollect Stand Alone Phonostages becoming regualar tipics of conversation during the 90's I had a SS Phonostage commission built for me. This is still owned today and has been out on a Long Term Loan for more than 2 Years.

Nearly 30 Years Later I am having another SS Phonostage Commission Built for me with a different approach to the Spec's.

I am assured the Spec's being produced are very very high spec, whatever that means, I look only to  Power On and listen and not get too bogged down in the measurements.

My Wife worries about Valves used for Amp's, I am making available to her in her own requested pace for a System Set Up. My SP 10 MK II and the new SS Phon', will be loaned as a MM set Up with a Neurochrome Amp' and New High Efficiency Speakers. The above apart from the New SS Phon' will be gifted to her for her own Vinyl Replays when the home is refurbished and moved back into. 

I will get the 90's SS Phon' back as well to see how things have changed.   

The Sansui AU III is a commonly listened to by myself as an Amp used for driving Stacked Quads.

If I can say it has one advantage in comparisons to other same models that might have been heard by others. Which is where it has been fully overhauled where Components are concerned and Tube Rolled for across many Years. With the permutation for Tubes in use, it makes the option to Bi Amp with the spare AU III quite an expensive consideration.

The Phonostage on the AU III Model has been heard on different occasions with a range of SUT's or Head Amp's in front of it. Where during these occasions as a device for replaying LP's, it has proved as impressive a the Modern Day Design Phon's that have been loaned for use at the same arranged session.

Very experienced individuals with audio equipment, as a result of their listening to the Vintage Phon' have found criticism, only good appraisal has been shared.     

Being one who does not get too involved with the Math, but am one who does put a lot of faith in individuals who are totally understanding of what is required when getting involved with the Math.

It seems those with a Proper Understanding of the Math will be best placed to give the best advice as to what a Phon' can aspire to be today in relation to the measurements being taken and could what a Phon' could not be when produced during eras 20-50 Years in the past.

  

@pani Description being presented by yourself are quite askew.

I have been in front of Phonostages on at least five occasions where approx' 10 -15 Phon's have been brought along for A/B Comparison demonstrations, where Phon's to be demo's are built by Commercial entities, Commission Built or Built by Very Adept EE minded Types and then the New Builder Type as well.

Phon's on a Line Up have been typically SS, Valve Hybrid, Valve Input/Output  with a price range from a few hundred £'s to near $2K for a BOM for a Phon' and through to a Under £1K to £10K+ for Commercial offerings.

A Phon' producer who knows a thing or two about a Phon' for not many hundreds of £'s is quite capable to produce a Phon' with an end sound that is not separated to higher priced phon's when these fall into the under £4K price range.

With this I have heard Phon's with a BOM of near £2K be unapproachable in a comparison by Phon's costing north of £7K.

There is the odd Phon' at the highest price that has been capable to separate itself as a very very attractive option and if monies were not limited would be a consideration for a short list.

My own experiences have assured myself when it comes to the end sound being  produced only.

Where demo's that have been heard, has been on systems that can have a costing up to £200K. There are Phon's being produced for less than £1K and then extending towards close to £2K that are so impressive as an end sound, a little extended time in their Company would be so satisfying, why would finding another £8K to £10K need to be parted with to have a at hand musical experience that is not too separated from a much more affordable option.

It is the Person who has put their thought into the Phon' that really matters, and People only know what they know, being influenced by their limitations of know how.    

Subjective Assessment ( Evaluation or judgment that is based on personal feelings, opinions, and experiences rather than objective facts or data).

Subjective Assessment used by myself when encountering a 834p as a EAR Design or a Variant Clone Design has never been an experience where I feel compelled to make an inquiry about how the Model is produced and learn how to acquire a model. In my assessment, there is not a end sound produced that generates an attraction to myself, that is wanted to be pursued for being available as readily at hand to be used.  

Does the 834p fill a room with Sound that is able to be listened to and not wanted to be avoided? Answer is Yes.

The subject of Phonostages and only giving the designs credit as a result of subjective assessment, is going to produce a mass amount of models to be suggested. 

Objective Assessment (A method of evaluation where the questions or tasks have a single, clearly defined correct answer. These assessments are fact-based, unbiased, and measurable, minimizing subjective interpretation. They are often used to gauge knowledge, skills, and understanding of specific facts and concepts).  

As stated by myself in an earlier Post and now with a edit:

" It seems those with a Proper Understanding of the Math will be best placed to give the best advice as to what a Phon' can aspire to be today as a finished design. In relation to the measurements values that can be taken from a modern design and measurement values that was not possible to be taken when produced during eras 20-50 Years in the past."

The Phasemation E-350 is a Phon' that has been auditioned in a system that is not my own.

It has been used as a Phon' in a line up to be compared, it was new, only a few hours of usage.

As an experience and as an assessment, I recollect the 350 being quite impressive and was comfortable with the notion it was comparable in end sound produced to the most expensive in use during the demo's, which was a Valve Phono' with a suggested retail cost of near £10K.   

The 350 certainly was loaded on the back panel for options to attach to other devices, which is another Plus for it.   

Spec's across devices are not usually openly discussed at comparisons get togethers, the intention is to have a group Subjectively Assess the sound being produced in a particular system and environment.  

The following is from other Forums where a 1990's Design for a Phonostage is under discussion. Design For and a Few Specific Components, will be suggestions still remaining 30 years on as being the attractive options for a Circuit in the wider seen discussions had on a Topology for a Phonostage.

The Circuit seen in the Image is the First Phonostage I had produced as a commission build, it was tweaked by the EE as a circuit, also being populated with BlackGates and I'm confident a AD797 was the OP Amp for MC, the MM Ip Amp selected I can't recall. This Phon' changed my interest in listening to audio and using an Analogue Source for ever, it is the one thing that encouraged me to experience so many Phon's through out the years, the initial experiences of it in use had a profound impact on how I was to assess sound being produced.

The Phon' is still owned today and is usually let go for a long term loan, it usually remains a loan item until the user buys in the Phon' that surpasses it, even then the returned reports on the recognised foibles are a few points shared only. Audio Notes Andy Grove must have intended on producing something quite valuable for the wider community when this Schematic was released for others to build.  

The Phonostage is assembled by the same individual and now friend, who has Commission Built other Amplification for me over the Past 30 Years. During the same period of producing this Phon' for me, the EE had built their own Valve Design Phonostages for customers ordering a commission build.

One Valve Phon' Model was to end up being compared to Phonostages in Dealerships in the London area in the 90's, was able to cause quite a stir. As an end sound being assessed, the Phon's Owner was making it known there was not a demo' where it was not recognised by those who heard it for being the better Phonostage in use.     

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 During my explorations, I ventured into the realm of designing and building phono stages. It's a meticulous process, much like a watchmaker delicately assembling the gears of a timepiece. My reference, which I fondly call the "Oceanic Phono," is a testament to this journey. It's an interstage transformer coupled, valve rectified, 2-stage phono preamp, employing the venerable C3g tubes. And here's the twist – there are no capacitors in the signal path, except for those tiny silver mica ones in the RIAA RC filter. This approach, much like a painter using a limited palette to create a masterpiece, has yielded a sound that's velvety smooth, detailed, and ultra-low noise. With about 60dB of amplification, it's perfect for an MM cartridge, or, in my case, a delightful pairing with MC cartridges and exquisite silver-wound step-up transformers.

But, as in any journey, curiosity beckons me to new horizons. My gaze now turns to LCR phono stages, particularly a circuit published by the masterful Nobu Shishido in the mid-1990s in Sound Practices DIY magazine. Shishido's choices are intriguing, almost like a chef using an unexpected ingredient. He opted for two overly large 47uF capacitors in the signal path for each channel. It's an unorthodox move, considering the usual capacitor choices in such applications, limiting the qualities one can explore. Shishido used the now-unobtainable BlackGates, which, despite their exotic allure, are still electrolytics. They face stiff competition from MKPs and PiOs in the capacitor world.

But let's not forget, Nobu Shishido is no fool. His 300b interstage coupled "Yamamoto" amplifier is the stuff of legends, a creation that sings melodies of its own. His decision to walk this path must have been driven by a deep intention, much like a novelist choosing a peculiar narrative style to tell a compelling story.

So here we are, contemplating the Nobu Shishido LCR phono, juxtaposed against my Oceanic phono. It's like comparing two distinguished poets, each with their unique voice and style, yet both enchanting in their way. The journey continues, and with each step, I delve deeper into the heart of music, uncovering its secrets, one component at a time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlJxRYpv8UU&t=48s

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Extracts are about Phonostages Produced in the late 60's and up to the mid 70's

Spec quotation from Mid 70's  

 " distortion was lower than the residual distortion of the test equipment, so for the development of this model it was necessary to start using a computer-controlled audio analyzer capable of analyzing harmonic distortion to a 0.00005% order, and with this equipment the total harmonic distortion measured from the phono (MM) input to the Record Out terminals (20Hz — 20Khz, total from second to tenth order) and shown in the specifications was an astonishing 0.0007%. "

A Spec from the 1960's 

( 30 Hz to 15 kHz (± 0.3 dB deviation from RIAA curve)

The same Brand from the early 70's

Phono:

74 db (Sensitivity 3 mv) 70 db (Sensitivity 1 mv)

 Phono : within ± 0.3 dB of the RIAA standard curve

 

Different Brand from the later 70's

RIAA deviation

20 Hz to 20 kHz ± 0.2 dB

Signal-to-noise ratio (IHF-A network)

Phono:88dB

 

The Link has a timeline for evolving products becoming available for Analogue Replays both pre/post RIAA.

It could be read as when the evolving Transducer was ready for a Teacher, the evolving Phon' appeared and Vice-Versa.

I'm sure those who have a knowledge of how a circuit works and are not historians, will see the earliest versions of circuitry that may be a favourite. 

https://www.darlingtonlabs.com/audio-history/blog-post-title-two-3nr8k

In relation to the 50's and Phonostage Technology, the Hard Medium Embedded Data was slow to grow in large volume for the the info available that was able to be embedded. Potentially meaning, without a consistency in what to work with. meant that design was not as forthcoming as a later time when there was a stabilisation of what is to be a embedded data.

I suggest it was a time when certain individuals with a capability were unsure where to with an advancing design.

This is suggested, as RIAA is recorded in historical accounts, as being Trickled into the Industry practices as Standardized EQ, reports suggest the take up was not immediate and become more popular across years of the decade.

Then there data that enabled Stereo that arrived at the latter part of the decade.

The Question is at what time was the industry in the know Stereo was not too far into the future, as this might of been a brakes on influence.  

 

    

End Sound that is heard from an unamplified instrument is a End Sound that is not Directional like the End Sound being encountered when near a Speaker.

An unamplified instrument is a End Sound that is Omnidirectional, it is very very different to Directional.

An audio system undoubtedly produces sound that is very easy to show a Acoustic Instrument is being used for the recording being made.

Believing the Sound is Omnidirectional will be a Psychoacoustic influence as a individuals unique Perception, maybe created by the hand of a very adept recording engineer.  It will not be the result of the Directional Sound being encountered through a Speaker. 

@newton_john stated " bearing > power supply > sub-chassis > tonearm > cartridge > phono amp "

I am on board with this sequence, it ties in with my Journey over quirte some years now. 

Bearing - I have began investigation and having works carried on on the Platter Spindle Bearing Housing selected materials and their assembly for many years, this started in the 90's and is still off great interest today, after a few different design for a Bearing redesign being used in a selection of owned TT's.

The outcome with TT's used has been a discernible substantial betterment that has been discovered when compared to the original OEM Bearing, even if the OEM Bearing has been thoroughly cleaned and overhauled, the luxury of owning duplicate Models of TT's enables such investigation.

Power Supply - Since the 90's I have been learning about where there are improvements to be found. It took a change of a ID TT Model to bring in the first Standalone Power Supply / Speed Controller.

The new introduced PC / SC was able to be used on the Prior in use ID TT.

The Standalone PC / SC showed its capabilities at being able to substantially tidy up an End Sound when attached to both TT's. 

The Standalone PC / SC was loaned out for extended periods, which was Instrumental in encouraging others to build their own versions off which a few were not full clones. I have been demo' all new designs v's my own model and can stare there is better than my own that I now know off in relation to the design I own.

A few years past, I was to be demo'd the Prototype Quartz Lock Speed Control that is now the Long Dog Audio Quartz Lock Speed Control.

On another occasion I was loaned the Production LDA Quartz Lock Speed Control, as it was known to the LDA Proprietor I was very interested in Standalone Speed Control Units. The LDA was compared to my own PS / SC and taken to other homes with a version of my own PS / SC in use. The LDA was used with both Garrard 401 and Lenco TT's in a variety of build types.

The LDA proved in all comparisons and agreed by the owners of a PC / SC that the LDA was the one able to make the biggest impression of a betterment to the End Sound.

To get a broader overview the my PTP Solid 9 > PC / SC > LDA was used in a system familiar to myself. There was a Group of 10 Present at the local HiFi Group meet up, where the audio agenda was to assess the SC's and then follow up with a Platter Mat Bake Off.

The LDA was voted the SC to be used for the upcoming Platter Mat demo's

Today - I am a DD TT user with Upgrades to Bearing Housing and to the OEM Speed Control Design, I am no longer experiencing the ID TT's unless requested to bring it along to a meet up, or to give somebody not knowing how they perform a Demo'.   

Sub Chassis - For me I refer to this as a Plinth, even though with Lenco ID TT's a lot was done with the TT's Chassis to improve it as an interface material.

When it comes to Plinths I have tried out a range of materials from Stone in different Masses and constitution ( Natural Formed / Manmade ) - Metal - Metal/ Wood Composite - Wood Board in different compressions for the Wood Board Construction and Different Masses used for the Plinths construction.

Today - I use a Wood Board as a Single 25mm Thick Board produced from a material referred to as a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board.

The Densified Wood Brand I use for Plinth Materials is Panzerholz.

I also use Densified Wood as the Brand P'holz and Permali as the Sub Plinth Material.   

Most recently I have a TT Design Produced where the above DD TT is now removed rom its OEM Chassis and is embedded into a P'holz Plinth/Chassis. The TT's on board electronics and off board Power Supply are both new designs incorporated in their own casing.

Tonearm - My Tonearm in use today is a redesign of an Older Generation Tonearm. My version has Modern Materials added to be extremely stable when in use and are able to machined to extremely tight tolerances at interfaces, creating the very very low Coefficient of Friction. Tonearm Wiring is also selected to have the least impact on the Wands Travel across the Album.

I have been instrumental in encouraging further investigations into this Tonearm and today there are changes to be added with ideas proven to be quite effective when a method to employ them has been discovered and thoroughly trialled. 

Cartridge - I have never Spent Big on a MC Cartridge, but today am using a Bespoke Built Cartridge that incorporates parts that belong to much more expensive Cart's in the Brands range of models. In conjunction with this I have a Cantilever and Stylus assed that the Company has no history of having used.

This Cart' has been compared using the same TT > TA > System to more Upper Range and much more expensive Cart's from the Company, than I paid for my Cart' to be produced.

The outcome of Comparisons does not show my Cart' is anything less, but it does behave more like a distant relative, and not owning the Family Sound as an obvious trait when closer related Cart' models are used.

Phonostage - My First Interest in Phon' Quality was manifesting in the 90's, when my first Commission Built Phon' was produced as a SS Phon'.

This Phon' made a profound impact on me an triggered a intention to experience Phon's. To date, I have travelled quite few Thousand Miles by Road and Train to experience Phon's in use. The Qty of Phon's having been auditioned is unknown to me now, bit including the large commercials shows during the 90's and 00's along with visiting dealerships, forum events and homes, I can be up in the 100's.

During this time I have added SS and Valve Phon's and in the very near future a Bespoke Commission Built SS Phon' will be ready for me to receive. 

The Total commission built Phon's to date is Four, being a 90's SS - pre Covid Valve / SS Hybrid - post Covid Vale Input / Output ( Off which I had a influence over the end design for my own - Soon to be supplied SS ( Probably my last spend on a design for a Phon' ) , but mote Phon's will be encountered, it is my thing to do this.

As I get out and about and loan audio equipment, especially the Analogue Source   for short term demo's or extended loans, what does all the above inform me.

In my system in my dedicated listening space and the treatment the Space has ben subjected to, for the intent to improve how sound energy interacts within the space.

I have produced a Analogue Source and Downstream Supporting Ancillary that works very very well for me.

Take the Analogue source to an alternate listening environment and audio system, when in certain homes to my ears the Analogue Source can be recognised as being mediocre as a performer.

The upside being when demo'd in certain homes, the Analogue Source inclusive of certain Phon's has been instrumental in encouraging others to rethink their own set up and shortly after making inroads into mimicking what has been encountered.

Technics SP 10 Mk II's and the SP10 R are now within my local HiFi Group as exchanged TT's.

One system has my Tonearm in use with a Mk II and one System has a version of my Valve Input / Output Phon' in use with a SP 10R.

A owner who received a demo' of my Analogue Source, who owned a SME Model 20 > V Tonearm moved on their set up as well, as the owner decided he was now aware of deficiencies with the set up.