Phono Preamps with "balls" ?

I don't know about the 12 but the ones I'm refering to were the MAT02 and 03 that were the ones that Levinson used. Probably out of production. Btw, AD had those devices in " space grade " specs.

R.

Dear @atmasphere : No, I don't missed but I was posting to him. I know very well the MAT discrete bipolar design. It could be a good alternative in your designs instead the out of production devices you were using.
R.

Dear @jcarr : I was talking of perfect matched bipolar devices not about FETS.

Clicks/pops: that’s a LP problem and not because that pole. In the other side there is nothing perfect in audio. Your Lyra cartridges are not but this is not the issue. You only have an opinion on that pole and in the phono stage that you have in your site is not implemented ( obviously. ) and I ask if in that unit you listened the Neumann constant to have that first hand experience through that phono stage design.

Btw, I’m not wrong about. That phono stage is the one you have in your site not the other. That old design has its own history and any one can find out in several forums like DIY. I’m talking of that unit that’s is not balanced and needs an external line stage with additional connectors, solder joints and cable where all these makes a degradation. So you don’t like the Neumann pole but you did not implemented yet in any of those two phono stages ! ? ! ?.

What do you want to say? because you don’t showed here nothing that could confirm everything I posted is wrong because my very high ignorance level but you are not perfect either.

If you are asking why bipolars it’s because you have not the answer but my unit is not the only down there with bipolar approach even vintage Levinson items used the MATs at the input and for very good reasons. The real subject belongs in the design skills of each single designer.

You are talking of something that you never implemented in those designs. The Neumann pole has its own side problems that only through the design skills can be avoided or at least left at minimum. Dartzeel implemented it and those side problems are very clear to listen it, this Neumann implementation was not made it in the rigth way but you know something: each designer has his own " rigth way ". Obviously you did not.

Now, you are a manufacturer and I'm not and you are talking of two subjects ( Neumann/bipolars. ) that you never implemented in your items. Makes no sense to me coming from you. As I said the phonolinepreamp I own comes with both characteristics so at least I have a frame to talk about and the experiences when I made some evaluations against top units outside.

It’s useless to follows on this dialogue. As I said enough and I mean it this time.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@jcarr : Now I understand your questioning. That phono stage originally was designed by P-mares and a contribution from you latter on. Is not even balanced and used Jfets at the input with an AD829 overall topology  design and I was thinking was your own design an a unique one but it’s not. ! !

You never listened the Neumann constant in your unit because P.Mares never designed it that way. I ask if you did it in your unit and you gave me a wrong or false answer. ? ! ? !

Enough.  
R.

@jcarr : DMM: well it uses Neumann cutter head/stylus that goes not burning due that metal does not burns as normal laquer recordings.

Bwefore I owned my today unit I never really like it the Teldec DMM recordings not even the few digital Telarc recordings and was till I listened the Scottfish recordings that I really appreciated the advantage of DMM . I have to say that I don't remember I tested those recordings with and with out the Neumann constant so I can't tell you in this precise moment but certainly I will do some time in the short future and share my experience about.

You are a LOMC designer so I don't need to enligth you why bipolars are better electrical match than FETs. This is not about wiisdom . It's about design and as you that does not disclose your Lyra new generation " unique " design keys don't ask for it. Please !

R.

@jcarr, our posts crossing at the same time.

R.

@jcarr : There is a real bipolar " problem " against FETs and is that you need perfect matched devices and other problem is to make a precise way for polarization. Designs front end with bipolars is not an easy task and needs more work than with FETS but the rewards makes worth to do it. The unit I'm using is a current fully difirential and totally dual mono design where exist in reality 3 separate circuits: one for MC ( with only two bipolars gain stages. ), one for MM ( this one use MOSFETS not bipolars ) and one line stage.

In design each designer has its own and almost " unique "  skills and as a cartridge designer you know very well that and can understand why the Colibri performs diferent from the Etna or the Ana. All are very good carrtridge designs but are each one " unique "  in its diferent quality level performance. I like all ones but the Colibri makes something than no other cartridge I experienced ( including yours. ) can't do it at the same level and is the precise and clear definition of the very high frequencies. All those 3 designs are different and VDH, you and Ortofon shares the same knowledge levels but different " skills " or the other way around ( I can't find out how to explain those differences. ).

If knowledge and skills levels in designers were evenly then almost all sill sounds the " same " and no one phonopreamp or amps or cartridge or speakers sounds the same.

In cartridges is more complex because the designer must have to do the cartridge voicing and certainly VDH, you and Ortofon uses diifferent system and techniics to do it and with different targets.

Neumann constant: for many years Ortofon used a " golden ears panel " to make several tests to improve its cartridge designs. From many many tests through that " golden ears " panel they concluded that its cartridges must have a peack over 20khz instead totally flat. It was tghrough this high frequency deviation where  that panel agree it was achieved the top quality level performance. Of course that the pannel never knew the frequency response of the different cartridge Ortofon samples they were listening.

Well , the Neumann constant/pole makes that come back the " spark " in the high frequencies that is totally losted with out it and this is what that pannel tell us in a different kind of tests.

I know that you read everything on audio an especially analog and I read too what you posted about the half-speed recording tool.The gentlemans as you that do not like to use the Neumann constant normally never listened and that's why I ask if you did it in your phonopreamp.

@atmasphere : """  I'm not interested in getting it sound like a good stereo. It has to sound like real music. """

me neither. A good SS stereo design always will performs as " real " music, it can't be in other way.

R.

Dear @jcarr : I respect your opinion but bipolars electrically are a better LOMC cartridge. I'm not saying than bipolars are perfect devices ( nothing is. ) but  better match. 

About the Neumann pole exist an advantage and I don't have to explain it to you. The main issue is to have the knowledge level and skills to implement it in the rigth way with out side problems. That Neumann constant must exist in any phono design and has to be the owner who decides if used or not. The cutterheads impedes that the RIAA eq. goes beyond 50khz because burning it self. There is no doubt exist an advantage to listen with than with out it, the issue is how that constant is implemented/designed.

You are not the only one ( @atmasphere here. ) that shares that kind opinion but other designers think the other way around and implemented with good results. Btw, did you try it in your phono stage?
Half-speed?, there are so many " myths " around that kind of recording tool.
@atmasphere , yes you are pickier than me, fine with that.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@atmasphere :  "   is a lot harder to build a solid state phono section that does not have RFI  "

maybe you can't or don't know how to do it.

Anyway you have always to " say something " against. Try to be an audiophile, take-off your tube builder hat because is useless in this regards.

R.

Btw, bass is not synonymous of power. When we attend to a solo violin live event we can " feel " the power's violin or a cello or any instrument. Bass is only one characteristic of MUSIC.

R.

Dear @avanti1960 : Power is ( for me ) the main characteristic of live MUSIC that obviously an audio system just can’t match it. Other main live MUSIC characteristic is it the transiente response " velocity " on each single note and harmonics these and other characteristics gives that outstandingn dynamics.

Analog can’t match digital and both are away from live MUSIC .

On any analog system ( a decent one. ) almost everything depends on: cartridge tracking habilities and accurate and well matched TT/tonearm/cartridge set up. With out that we will more away of the " target " .

What to look for a phono pream?, first that the phono-preamp has enough gain for the cartridge output level and be by preference a SS ( bipolars. ) design with no single tube inside, second that be an active high gain design or if need it a SUT that this device comes internally as part of the phono design and try to avoid external SUT that degrades always the cartridge signal due to the additional connectors, solder joints, frequency extremes limitations response and cable to connect it, third that the phono-preamp be designed with gain stages at minimum ( 2 gain stages is better than 4. Only an example. ), that the phono stage not only comes with a low RIAA eq. deviation as could be 0.1 db or lower but that that deviation looking through a chart of it does not happens at both frequency extremes, that comes with the Neumann RIAA pole, that the phono-preamp comes with not only a flat response in both channels ( matched ) but widely from 0 to at least 500 khz or even better 1 Mhz ( if any of us have a dude on why that so wider frequency range please email to Proffesor Johnson of Spectral/Reference Recordings designer. ) that the output impedance of that phono unit stay really lower at both frequency extremes ( we have to ask for. ) and that both phono.preamp channels shows the same: gain, output impedance, IMD, THD, RIAA response etc. levels

If we take care about ( obviously a decent amp/speaker/room. ) we can have that power you are looking for. Well not exactly that power because it’s imposible to achieve it not even by the digital alternative that’s the one that its approaching is nearest to than analog but analog sounds good too.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Not you again ! ! !  and in this regards: wrong again because I'm not talking of " bass " but the meaning of " balls " in a phono preamp due that if exist that " balls " characteristic " ( other than bass. ) that belongs to the whole home room/audio system.

@atmasphere , your post makes no sense especially when you have not the rigth audio system to listen the huge differences in digital vs analog and when you did not yet all the tests I suggested in this thread.

Btw, a " phono preamp with balls " is something as any audio item in a system: cartridge with balls, cables with balls, room with balls, amps with balls speakers with... or .....

R.

Dear friends: I already ask to @avanti1960 explain the meaning of " phono preamp with balls " because that does not exist there ( he did not gives an answer yet. ) but I can read that all of you think it exist in the phono preamp ! ! !

Please some one of you or all can share why is that?

R.

Dear @atmasphere : Forgeret all what you write in your last post, it does not helps in anyway to prove that analog bass is better than digital because it's not.

Again do it a favor and listen the CD and the LP of those scores I posted to you and please listen it not in your system that can't honor those scores ( no matters what. ) but in a good home audio system with bipolar electronics and subs. Till you do that is useless all your in good intention words. Don't waste your time till you listen it.

"""  imposes audible distortion (caused by aliasing ... """

don't try to figth against digital and don't try to win  that figth because before you started that figth you already losted it:

http://www.mstarlabs.com/dsp/digital-anti-alias-filters.html 


https://dsp.stackexchange.com/questions/9205/can-we-have-a-digital-anti-aliasing-filter

How many google pages do you need to understand that aliasing is not any more a digital problem as you said?

Btw, do you know that in a home audio system the MUSIC belongs to the bass range?

Dear audiophiles as better your home audio system bass management as better the overall quality performance of your audio system.
According with a scientific studies made it by Harman group the ideal number of subs in a home system is of 4 self powered ones where in " automatic " way the bass range will be smooth and with out bass room nodes and the like. We have to worry on nothing in that bass range and ovbiously that the benefits comes not only on that bass range but at the same time a better mid and high frequency ranges ! !

We need as minimum 2 subs.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@atmasphere : do you still think that R2R is the best analog reproduction medium? because it's not due to all those problems I posted and you as any one can check directly D2D recordings made it  by Shefield Labs whom in the same recording sessions they made the great D2D LPs and recorded on R2R too.

Well the D2D sample outperforms easily the one original master cut LPs.

The latest digital technology/mediums outperforms any single R2R recordings no matters what and outperforms all over the frequency range not only in the bass range.

@atmasphere: do you know or are aware that we all are living in April 2018?

Today it's analog no contest and never will be again ! ! !   Got it?

R.

Dear @atmasphere : Tubes can’t honor MUSIC with the accuracy need it for. I know that you are very good designer of tube electronics and this is not under question because it’s not the subject. Tubes can’t do it.

Your speakers goes to 20hz? wel mines goes to 16hz by design and even that the subwoofers is a must to have. Period.

Of course that I know " what you have " in your listening room and in your last post confirmed it.

Please before you come back here to post about my " falsehoods/outrigth errors " do it your self a favor and try to find out a true audiophile with a home audio system using bipolars electronics ( with no single tube down there. ) and integrated pair of subwoofers and listen to at least two of those CD/LP recordings I posted.

Again, with out those subs you can’t know nothing at all. No single passive speakers can do it the rigth way.

Please read this:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/do-you-think-you-need-a-subwoofer/post?postid=310058#310058


Regrads and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @atmasphere : I know that you belongs to the AHEE " dark side " and nothing wrong with that.

you said: "" I’ve yet to hear a CD that plays better bass than my phono section..."""

you can’t choose a more worst frequency range to compare digital against LP.

" mastered for CD or other digital release, quite often it is compressed. "

so compressed in the bass range: don’t tell me and please forgeret about because been a part of that " dark side " you choosed on purpose not to say a word on how to EVEN the frequency range after those heavy/terrible RIAA equalizations proccess in analog that positively " destroy " the signal. Additional to impede/prevents the heads burning exist a filter to stop the frequency in that RIAA at over 50khz.

You choosed not to add a single word in your post about that pivot tonearm error alignment, tracking error, skating, cartridge tracking abilities, or ... or... that destroy the signal in the play proccess.

But obviously you are not able to detect or be aware of bass range differences ( huge ones. ) between digital/CD and analog because you are a tube manufacturer and tubes not only can’t honor bass frequency range but any signal that pass through.

Additional you choosed in your hybrid phonopream the wrong SS input device ( FET/MOSFET ) for a LOMC cartridge that it’s looking for bipolar devices that are the only ones that can matchs the MC needs.

So whar are you talking about of something you can’t even listen through your audio system Atmasphere electronics? ! ! ? ?  

In the other side the recordings process the analog signal is recorded in a R2R machine that makes a degradation too due that: develops odd harmonics, high signal to noise ratio, w&f, frequency range limitations, THD/IMD, etc. etc.

All those has no effects against the digital signal because what goes in the R2R tape is not " signal music " but zeros and ones ! ! ! GOT IT.?

I own and just listen to some CD/LP of the same recordings and listen through a humble Denon CD player ( 24/192 ) and the very best phonolinepreamp and tonearm ever ( where you can’t even dream with. ):

Gladiator ( 2000 year. ): LP by ORG 45rpm sampler. LP sounds good but not good enough as that older CD. Through the LP you can’t listen and feel the Zimmer synthetizer power where everything in that bass range is under control: no overhang, really tigth, dry, fast transient, definition note by note and the develops of those bass harmonics ( just unique, as if you where in the " battle ". Remember the picture? because that’s what I’m talking about. ) and with a huge huge soundstage that only can be listening when the bass range is so precise and accurate that in digital. Analog can’t even imagine this kind of bass quality level can exist.

Unfortunatelly you can’t enjoy that quality level, sorry you can't enjoy that " compressed " bass CD range, that we can find out too in:

Glory ( 1989. ), The Thin Red Line ( 1999 ), Vangelis Blade Runner ( 1994 ), 300 ( 2007. ). Yes all from those great pictures film soundtracks.

There are other examples that are extraordynaries on CD: Vikings, Game of Thrones, Strike Back, Marselle etc. etc.

Btw, you need to have inegrated in your home audio system additional to bipolar electronics two self powered subwoofers connected in true stereo fashion ( not one subwoofer but at least two units. ) croosing at around 80 hz and where the main speakers crossing frequency does not pass through any external electronic crossover.

@jollytinker , maybe you need to take your time to understand and you can do honor your moniker.

@avanti1960 , overall what do you mean with " balls "? because that maybe does not belongs to the phonopreamp as you ask for.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@atmasphere : I have not the time rigth now. Wrong, you still live in the past.

Latter on,
R.

Dear @atmasphere : As I said the problem is not in the phono stage ( I mean the main problem. ) but  the huge differences that exist in both proccess: recording and play where digital is way way different to how things goes with analog where almost all " thousands " of steps/stages where the signal pass through degrades the signal and you can't argue nothing about because are facts, no matter what. Example other that how the bass is recorded in digital:

analog pass through not one but two terrible huge equalization proccess because the LP medium limitations, these equalizations are the RIAA standard.
Only these proccess ( where does not exist in digital because it does not need it. ) impedes to mantain  what the microphones pick up during the recording sessions but is worst that what we can imagine because the second RIAA eq. ( inverse. ) procces that happens in the phono stage is to even the  original recorded frequency range and this " even " never  never happens ( especially in the bass range. ). First because the RIAA eq. in the phono stage just does not " knows " exactly each single deviation in the eq. curve made it in the whole recording proccess ( so it can't exist that " even " ever. ) and second because all the inverse RIAA eq. curve comes with different frequency deviations all over the frequency range and those deviations over the curve normally stays over 0.2 dbs that at not only affects at each single discrete frequency where is happening but affects too at least two octaves because each single discrete frequency depends  and affects the next one.

Not enough?, ok: at the very first time that the cartridge stylus hits the very first LP groove it can't reads what in reality is that groove or in all LP grooves because the tracking error in the choosed alignment and additional to that tracking error this error develops tracking error distortions that additional these distortions are incremented by other distortions that depends on each cartridge tracking abilities.
All these happens inside a " perfect " tonearm/cartridge alignment set up but " perfect " does not exist so the distortions goes even higher and normally affects more to both frequency extremes.  LT tonearms? has other problems too, forgeret.

Your : "  Nah. ", means nothing other than nah.

If you want more just ask for it because  there are more FACTS about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @atmasphere : """ I’ve yet to hear a CD that plays better bass than my phono section..."""

A CD with a top DAC ( 32bits/384 khz.) and good overall design outperforms any phono stage it does not matters the phono stage price/pedigree ( including yours. ) in the bass " management " and this is not because your unit or other units are not good designs because I know your design is a good one but it’s because the differences between a digital and LP recording technics.

The recording microphones pick up all the music in stereo including the bass range but for the LP overall limitations the low bass comes not in stereo as when in the recording but in mono way when in digital comes as what were pick up by those recording session microphones, digital has no limitations about.

That is one of multiple reasons why digital outperforms LP/analog in the bass no matter what.

I repeat, it’s not your quality unit design but the " medium " limitations. No contest by analog in this regards against digital.

I’m an analog lover but I’m not " blind " and certainly not " deaf ".


Regards and enjkoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.