Phono Preamp. With transformer or fully active

Dear @intactaudio :  From some years now LOMC cartridge designs comes with higher output levels than in the past.

That healthy higher output makes a more easy way for phono stages to handle LOMC designs, especially tube electronics but that healthy output comes with a trade-off in the overall cartridge quality performance levels.

If that Etsuro Gold instead of 0.56mv came with say 0.15mv I have no doubt that @mikelavigne  will be even more happy that with his already great Etsuro samples quality performance.

Problem is that 0.15mv can be a problem even for SS phono stages. Nothing is perfect but normally lower output mv means less wire in its coils with more powerful magnets as neodymium ones.

Lyra is a good example about when JC started with his Atlas/Etna models and latter on he presented the new same models in low output fashion and owners and reviewers gone with a smaLL PREFERENCE FOR THE LOWER OUTPUT MODELS.

I remember what happened in the past with some of the LOMC cartridges I owned, example: AT MC 1000 that was marketed along its dedicated SUT AT 1000T for its low 0.1mv output or the Ortofon MC2000 that appeared along its dedicated SUT T-2000 for its very low output of 0.05mv and the same was with Audio Note design. 
All those cartridges came with very high quality level performance but not easy to handle for phono stages, certainly not tubes designs.

Latter on I remember my first Colibri with a not so lower but certainly not something approaching the Etsuro output, this Colibri had 0.21mv and performed excellent in quality kind of sound. Latter I bougth two other Colibri samples but VDH only offered with higher output and I have to say that nothing like the " original " 0.21mv polymer cartridge body.

Anyway, good that both of you are satisfied with.

R.

Dear @intactaudio : "  I make SUT's so I'm going to explore those options. You prefer an active stage so that is where your biases are. Tubed vs. solid state are a couple of more of the warring factions. This is where the subjective results come into play and ultimately we choose and follow the path that gives the most musical enjoyment.   "

Agree with. I use both alternatives.

Btw, after I seen a picture in your site I took in count that if I remember ( maybe I'm wrong. ) this gentleman @mikelavigne   posted that he listened or bougth ( ? ? . ) the silver wired SUTs and maybe you can confirm it or not because if I'm rigth then I remember too that he touted those SUTs:


http://www.intactaudio.com/images/Tran_images/canned%20SUT_SM.jpg

http://www.intactaudio.com/tran.html

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTOPRTIONS,
R.

Dear @intactaudio : I always say: " every day is a learning day " and througgh your last post confirm it. Really enligthing ! ! in a way " torture road " and sometimes controversial critical and important subject.

Thank's again.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @intactaudio  : You posted this where we can read: 

http://www.intactaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=752#top

"" When we terminate the transformer with a different value, we not only change the load seen by the cartridge we change the behavior of the transformer itself! This means we are changing two parameters which creates a very unpredictable situation which goes a long way to explain why results of playing with secondary loading on SUT's has lead to such varied results since you cannot be sure what you are fixing. ""

Thank's for the link in your last post.

R.

Dear @lewm :  A dedicated external SUT is not builded exactly the same as the transfortmers used in phono stages where the designer knows that the customer can have different MC cartridges ( needs a gain/impedance selector/alternatives. ) and their designs take in count that issue.

R.

Dear @frozentundra  : "  As a general rule...."

I own 5-6 SUTs and owned some others in the past. The ones I own are hard wired to not disturb the cartridge signal through the input/output connectors and are hard wired with 0.5m good IC cables.

My Phonolinepreamp is an active high gain design with separated/dedicated MC and MM circuit boards. Yes, the MC stage is better than  the MM+SUT and how much better depends on the SUT I use.

My favorite SUT is this vintage one by Denon and note its really wide band windth frequency response that even today SUTs can't approach in the other side note that it's a really heavy unit with 12kg.:

https://www.denon.jp/ja-jp/museum/products/au1000.html

performs excellent and as a fact it's installed rigth now in my system.

Normally a phono stage with internal SUT are less expensive than a good SS active high gain phono stage that at the same time performs better too.

I could think that this today SUT by Audio Technica can works really fine in a good MM phono stage design:

https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/accessories/1211e0cd29d5d0aa/index.html

With SUTs as these ones that " softening " is really at minimum and we can't avoid it in a SUT. These kind of SUTs asks for top LOMC cartridge models. 

But more important than if passive or active high gain phono stage is the quality of its design with main focus in the inverse RIAA eq. curve.

Everything is important in any design but exist different  priority levels in the design characteristics.

R.

Dear @mglik  :  Dear @mglik  : I have no doubt that you love the Zesto unit that's a tube phono stage design.

Why LP analog alternative needs a phono stage? mainly to apply the inverse RIAA curve eq. and in second place to amplify the cartridge signal.

The inverse RIAA curve eq. should mimic the RIAA curve eq. for we can achieve a flat frequency response. This means with no frequency deviations.

The RIAA eq. is a heavy equalization process that goes from 20hz to 20khz and the eq. from around +,-  20dbs ! ! where any single deviation on that curve affects almost two octaves during the inverse eq. phono stage second process.

From some time now a good phono stage design normally comes with an inverse RIAA deviation of: +,- 0.1db but the Zesto comes with higher frequency response deviation: 0.5db that means it has a swing of 1db that's is to high and that puts additional colorations/distortions to the already inherent colorations/distortions generated by tubes.

The inverse RIAA eq. curve is critical to achieve or to stay nearer to the recording. Normally with tubes is extremely hard task to be " there ".

Yes, tube alternative is an option to the SS alternative.

R.

Dear @terry9  : Well, part of the second post and only an opinion.  I think that I have not exactly a misunderstood as you said but that I did not be specific about. Never mind, your post welcomed.

R.

Dear @frozentundra : "" Phono Preamp. With transformer or fully active.""

Both can works fine and if you ask on which is better the answer is that mainly depends of each unit quality design and excecution quality of that design.

In both designs you can use almost any LOMC cartridge ( the two first posts in the thread are wrong and with a high misunderstood levels. ).

It’s totally false that the transformer design unit can comes with a lower noise levels than an active design because this depends of the knowledge and skill levels of the phono stage designer.

The main limitation of a transformer/passive design could be the inherent frequency response bandwndth limitation that all transformers have at both frequency extremes where an active design has an advantage. The other issue is that the cartridge signal must pass through all the transformer wire length that makes a little more degradation than the active stage that between other advantages gives a more immediacy to what we listen it with a little more transparency/clarity that the transformer unit.

Now, if you don’t own a top LOMC cartridge but an average quality one then the choice is not so important but the unit quality design. For top LOMC cartridges the choice must be to go for the active unit.

Btw, external SUT is the worst choice and the alternative that degrades the more the delicated and sensible cartridge signal due that you need additional IC cables that means additional input and output connectors where the signal must pass and is degraded as is degraded at the solder joints in that cable and connectors and obviously through the cable wire. So with the external SUT you will have less purity in the MUSIC cartridge signal, more veiled signal and with a lot higher distortion levels.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.