Phono Preamp Tube Rush

Do I conclude from the talk about Johnson noise that (1) MM cartridges with their inherently much higher internal resistance and much much greater inductance will be noisier than MC types?

What matters, of course, is signal-to-noise ratio, and of course the greater amount of Johnson noise that would be generated by the greater amount of resistance in a MM cartridge occurs in conjunction with a greater amount of signal.

And (2) what about all those high value Rs often used in an RIAA network, again, IF one is obsessive about Johnson noise?

I’m not especially familiar with the internal designs of phono stages, but I would expect that quality designs typically apply a significant amount of gain "ahead" of the RIAA equalization circuitry. Resulting in much better S/N ratio relative to Johnson noise generated by that circuitry than if the output of the cartridge was applied directly to it.

Also, keep in mind that Johnson noise that can be generated by a high value resistor may or may not matter depending on the impedances and configuration of the associated circuitry. For example, as Hagtech and the Sound Devices paper I linked to both indicated, shorting a high impedance input will essentially nullify the effects of Johnson noise that would otherwise be introduced by that high impedance.

Finally, of course, the RIAA network rolls off everything above 1 kHz to some degree, which encompasses 95% of the spectrum that is nominally audible.

In any event, the only reason I raised the issue of Johnson noise was in response to a question about whether any tube-based phono stages are quiet enough for hiss to be inaudible when one’s ear is placed against the speaker, while a record is not being played. And my response was to the effect that for typical combinations of system gains, sensitivities, and volume control settings theoretical limitations might come into play which could make that impossible, or close to it.

Best regards,
-- Al

Most LOMC cartridges have bandwidth well past 20KHz- most have no worries going to 40KHz.

Hi Ralph,

Yes, I realize that. But what I was attempting to calculate was an approximate figure of the amount of Johnson noise (aka thermal noise) attributable to the cartridge’s resistance **that might be audible** while a record is not being played.

@hagtech, thanks for confirming that the ESR (equivalent series resistance) of a cartridge can be used for purposes of that calculation.

Best,
-- Al

I might wonder whether one can model a phono cartridge based solely on its internal resistance, in that calculation.

@lewm, that’s a good point. But the inductance of my cartridge is spec’d as 25 uH at 1 kHz. If we assume its inductance is also around 25 uH at 20 kHz, its inductive reactance at 20 kHz would only be about 3 ohms. And it would be progressively less than that at lower frequencies, of course. So it would appear that the cartridge’s impedance is primarily resistive throughout the audible frequency range.

Best regards,
-- Al

Almarg, What formula did you use to calculate the Johnson noise of a phono cartridge?

@lewm

Hi Lew,

I performed that calculation in two different ways, and got the same result both ways:

Method 1: The section of the Wikipedia writeup on Johnson noise that is sub-titled "Noise Voltage and Power" contains an equation for rms noise voltage which makes clear that rms noise voltage over a given bandwidth at a given temperature is proportional to the square root of the product of that bandwidth and the resistance which is responsible for the noise. That section also states as follows:

For a 1 kΩ resistor at room temperature and a 10 kHz bandwidth, the RMS noise voltage is 400 nV.[6]

Footnote 6 indicates that a more exact result is about 403.6 nanovolts, or 0.4036 uV (microvolts).

I then extrapolated from that number to the result corresponding to the 12 ohm resistance of my cartridge, over a 20 kHz bandwidth:

0.4036 x [square root [(12 ohms/1000 ohms) x (20 kHz/10 kHz)]] = 0.0625 uV

0.0625 uV is 78 db less than the 500 uV rating of my cartridge, since:

20 x log(0.0625/500) = -78 db

Method 2: I started with the following paper, although it pertains to microphone amplifiers:

https://www.sounddevices.com/microphone-preamp-noise/

The paper states that:

The noise generated by a 10k ohm resistor (based on the thermal noise formula above) is around 1.8 uV (-114 dBV).

I assumed they were referring to a 20 kHz bandwidth, or at least to something of that order of magnitude. I then extrapolated from the 1.8 uV/10K numbers to the 12 ohm resistance of my cartridge in a manner similar to Method 1 above, and after converting to db relative to the 500 uV rating of my cartridge I got the same 78 db result.

Best regards,
-- Al

daveyf 11-11-2019
Anyone here actually own a tube phono stage that is so quiet that when you place your ear right up against the speaker and the phono stage is active...and at some mild gain, but with no music playing ( or even at no gain) they hear absolutely no tube noise/rush ( dead silence)...I doubt it.

I’m doubtful that is even theoretically possible with typical combinations of system gains, sensitivities, and volume control settings, even if a solid state phono stage is used.

Out of curiosity I did some quick calculations of the Johnson noise that would be produced by the resistance of my phono cartridge itself. As I mentioned earlier I use an AT-ART9, which is rated to produce 0.5 mv under the standard test conditions and has a specified resistance of 12 ohms.

I calculated that at room temperature and over a 20 kHz bandwidth the 12 ohm resistance would result in Johnson noise that is about 78 db below the cartridge’s rated output. If we assume for example that the volume control is set such that the cartridge’s rated output results in an SPL of 90 db at the listening position (which I think is a reasonable ballpark assumption), it would mean that the cartridge itself would be producing 12 db of noise at the listening position, within that 20 kHz bandwidth. That would almost certainly be inaudible at the listening position, of course, even when a record is not being played, due to the combination of RIAA equalization, A-weighting, ambient noise in the room, etc. But I would by no means assume that to be the case if the listener’s ear is placed up against the speaker, even if the phono stage, cabling, and the rest of the system add zero noise. My understanding is that an SPL of about 0 db is considered to be the nominal threshold of audibility, and 12 db at the listening position would correspond to a much higher volume right next to the speaker.

Regards,
-- Al

I use a Herron VTPH-2 (not 2A) in conjunction with an AT-ART9 LOMC cartridge rated at 0.5 mv, with the Herron's stock tubes and no loading plugs. If I turn the volume control in my system to a setting slightly higher than I would ever use (which is quite loud; some classical symphonic recordings I listen to can produce 105 db peaks at my 12 foot listening distance) the hiss produced by the phono stage is only audible within about 1 foot of the speakers.

In saying that, though, I should point out that I believe the Decca London Super Gold cartridge mentioned by the OP is a high output cartridge, and while the moving magnet input stage of the Herron is indeed tube-based its LOMC input stage is FET-based (i.e., solid state).

@lewm I believe what hagtech is referring to is Johnson noise, that would be produced to some (not necessarily audible) degree by any resistance.

Regards,
-- Al