Phono cartridge suggestions sought

So the oprions for Denon upgrades include SS, Zu and another one who’s name I can’t recall. Fstein, it is a good idea for me to keep in mind. Why do you suggest this? Also, do they preserve a conical tip or use a diff stylus profile?

Thanks lewm and fstein. The retipping makes sense as one way to go. 

Thanks schubert. After the 97 degree day we had here yesterday, Christmas seems far off, but glad you have something to look forward to. I will check if any of rhe local shops have that on a table. The Rega isn't a bad comparison to the Bryston as both go the relatively low mass unsprung engineering path though with different approaches to resonance control. 

Chakster, thanks for those suggestions. BTW, Sending it to SS gives an option of either a ruby or boron cantilever, with a nude contact line or optimized contour nude contact line stylus for relatively little money. With that information, and based on your concerns about conical tips, do you still think that getting the Denon worked on makes no sense? If so, why? 

Roberjerman, i use Last before every side. And a brush for periodic hard scrubbing. I once dug deep into some very scientific studies on styli wear. Along with pictures and other data, one study said 500 hours regardless of stylus profile or brand. It should under high resolution wear after different hours of use. A cartridge can still sound great but be eating the vinyl according to that study. 

So i went to my preferred dealer and listened to an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze on a Brinkman powered by the big Parasound into some Kef Blade 2’s and a phono stage I’d bever hears of before, etc. not sure I was hearing the cadenza alone, but it all certainly sounded good. 

Additionally, if I could justify investing the funds, their SG sounds more interesting than their  MI but I would rather invest that sort of money in the market than in my toys. 

Terry9, I do have Chris Feickert’s set up tool, an old record of test tones and a phone speed app (plus obious thinks like a level). Any other tools for cartridge alignment and tt set up you think i should have?

Chakster, i have read and viewed a lot on the Soundsmith site. And I admire the company’s reputation. One concern I have is that SS seems overly dependent on one individual, at least for its better cartridges, and I haven't learned of a succession plan. Are you aware of one? That would be helpful to know. 

Chakster, the article you sent  wouldn’t dissuade me at all from purchasing  product from Ortofon.  At least not from my authorized dealer. That said, I’m not sure  that’s the cartridge I want, even though I’ve owned their  products before. 

As for your question to me about Ortofon, Of course pins coming out is an issue. However, I don’t base purchasing decisions solely on the presence of negative feedback on the Internet. I have never yet encountered a product that I could purchase in which I have not uncovered negative feed back. Everything manufactured has defects, at least if there is some amount of volume in the production line. I remember back in the 80s, some cartridge companies charged more for their highest end cartridges. When asked the difference between that and the next lower product, their response was that it was the exact same product, but that they discarded more of the hire and products and label them as their next highest level. Wish i could remember that company but I was in college and probably trying to memorize other information back then.

This thread has been more informative and fun than I imagined. Thanks everyone. Such great ideas and knowledge. 

Thanks Raul, and ive enjoyed reading your extensive information on cartridges btw

Elliot, Thanks for sharing your perspective’s. I spent a lot of time on alignment also. I was a chef in my first career, and precision of tools in there use is deeply ingrained in me. So I feel like that is handled. I have a Shure M97xe in “my fleet” as well, and have always enjoyed it’s “buttery” sonics, athough the sound is also more “dampedl than my Denon103r and other cartridges I have heard. It also didn’t have as high end extension or crispness—and I am old enough to be limited in that area, so that says something.

But apart from that, now that Shure is out of the game, what are you doing for replacement styluses?

As for the Stylast, I use it before every side. I have hd the current bottle three years, and I imagine the bottle will last at least another 5+, so I can’t worry about that.

Hey, here is an interesting interesting quote from an Art Dudley review of the Peachtree Nova 300:

After experiencing an excess of lightness from CDs and SACDs, I braced myself for similar results from LPs—and was relieved to hear no such thing: perhaps a simple consequence of the fact that the Shindo SPU pickup I was using has a proper, God-fearing spherical stylus, which doesn't lighten or brighten recordings as can other styli.

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/peachtree-audio-nova300-integrated-amplifier-page-2#54RZs8i2uEBK...

Given our discussion about stylus profiles in here, I thought it was a refreshing take to  hear what a great ear has to say about the advantages of a spherical stylis vs the disadvantage of other shapes. 

Thanks chakster

Yeti, thanks.


"A bit more output than the 103 wouldn’t go amiss if the 60dB quoted as the maximum gain for an unbalanced output for your phonostage by Absolute sounds is accurate."

Easily accurate, yes.

"What do you know about your arm, was the 103 a good match?"

Seems like a good match. 10 gram effective mass or so. It's written down somewhere.

"I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by the performance of a London Decca I fitted to an Aro recently, and rather disappointed when it started humming when a neighbour turned something or other on in the adjacent apartment, probably his TV or a computer or some such."

I moved through testing many phono pre's before landing on the JC Junior precisely because it out right rejected RFI from a nearby antenna that the other 'stages couldn't silence.

"If you can get to hear one a 17DX might give the apheta a run for its money but you’re into micro line there so you’ll need clean records, the plus side is the 2000 hour plus stylus life if you don’t mess up the bias setting (like I did on my first D2)."

Well, depends how clean clean is. I have a RCM, but I clean once, and then just rely on new sleeves, carbon fiber brush and occasional groove glide. Also, I don't use anti-skating, not on my Thorens and the Bryston doesn't even come with it. I guess I fall in the school that doesn't believe in it. 

"I’ve heard the Atom at the factory driving Sopra 1s and at a dealership driving some Russell K floor standers, on both occasions the object was to show the improvement to be had from the Star and Nova, I’ve not hears it with speakers that were chosen for the Atom, oh and I’ve heard it powering some Shahinian Hawks surprisingly well, though not well enough to live with, its still an entry level product, how much cartridge does it need?"

Well that's a great question. At some point, I may get an amp and use the atom as a streamer. Not to play louder, which I don't regularly do, but to provide more presence at lower volume.

But I've listened to very expensive cartridges on nominally very resolving systems, and I don't always hear more than what I hear with a 2k cartridge. So maybe my ears are shot (not what the tests show, though my highs do disappear at 12khz. This aging thing...) 

Still, I tend to think that transducers are the parts of the system which make the clearest sonic difference, and that makes me think that a substantial cartridge upgrade is worth a try.

From Andrew Ballew:

Overall, the Denon is a better cart to my ears. Oh, and the intermodulation distortion I was getting has been greatly reduced. Only happens on a couple offending albums, now.  

But, this shouldn't be, right?? I have seen the question popped on several forums, including this one, I think. The answer is always the Denon is a low compliance cart and WILL NOT WORK with a Rega arm.  

I'm not really sure where that comes from. If you have heard the combo, you know it works fine. If you do the math, combining the Denon with a Rega arm gives you a resonant frequency of 11.3 hz. Static compliance of the Denon is widely thought to be around 10 (rule of thumb seems to be double the stated compliance of a Japanese cart). Rega arm (RB303) is estimated to be 11 grams. The Denon Cart is 8.5 grams. 

What the resonance frequency should be is arguable. But it seems that the range between 8hz and 12 hz is considered acceptable. And, my math says I am right there. 

Yeti,
I was merely sharing another audiophile's thinking. What I do feel comfortable saying is that our math doesn't always describe the real world...which is another way of saying that there are often factors that we can't always describe at current state of knowledge, but which challenge orthodox thinking regardless. 

I don't know why the Denon sounds good on this table, but it does. That said, I am still hesitating to pull the trigger on something that hopefully will sound great. 

Thanks chakster! I 

@mattmiller, I think you missed my last post—as I did get exactly the cartridge you suggested. I have only listened to two sides but am just back from work finally and am gonna spin some more music. Purcell is on my agenda. I want to hear how it deals with some operatic sopranos and high strings. 

@hifiman5, I have a feickart protractor, a vtf scale, and a fastidious nature. I am sure there are always additional levels of dialing things in, but part of my own goal—particularly as someone who wants to slowly build a small cartridge fleet, is to be able to properly align a cartridge in the 7 variables i have identified (cartridge shell alignment/cantilever alignment, azimuth, vtf, vta, overhang, screw torque, geometry). I will have to trust my ears, but I am open to suggestions and ideas for best set-up procedures.

Have you used Michael Fremer’s dvd? I dont have that and am wondering if it is worthwhile or adds on to the other excellent information available. 

Hi everyone. So I finally pulled the plug. Got a Dynavector 20x2H. My dealer had a demo one with 150 hours on it. Would have preferred the LO, but at $5 bills I couldn’t turn it down. Spent an hour getting it aligned just so. So far, I have only had a chance to listen to Sonny Rollins “A Night at the Village Vanguard.” John Lewis on keys, connie Kay on druns, etc. 
The alto sax and cymbals are two real stand outs. Amazing decay on the cymbals, and the timbre on the sax is luscious. 

Music is fuller and more present without being forward at al. It will be interesting getting to know this microline sweetie. 

Oh yes, so I listened to Purcell’s the Indian Queen, Herbie Hancock’s and a mono pressing of Clarence Williams. On the Purcell, the new cart seems to have tamed some of the treble glare that was annoying me on the Denon—which remains a really musical cartridge I gotta say. I want to put it to some more high frequency tests in the coming week. 

@hifiman5, I think i wasn’t clear enough. I picked up a lightly used Dynavector from my super awesome dealer, so the cart is already broken in. I also would have preferred the low output, but at half the price of a new one, I figured it was a good way for me to experience the Dynavector sound on my home system. That said, with my 40 watt amp, the extra oomph of the HO might be worth whatever reduced speed it causes. I’d kinda want to compare the carts A/B to see if I can detect a difference at my current level of listening discernment. (I finally picked up a copy of Robert Harley’s book and he does a good job of explaining how to better listen, so hopefully that will help).

I have toggled between 40/50/60 dbl gain and even adjusting spl to the same volume using the decibel app on my phone, I prefer it at the 60 gain setting. Sounds richer. Not why this should be. Anyone have ideas?

Thanks Terry. I will have to check what albums matchc your criteria. 

Ok, so some new changes in my source world. I still have the Bryston TT with the Dynavector 20x2, but I recently acquired a Thorens TD124v2, and decided to go all out (for me.) I am using a SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC Star cartridge. Even better lateral imaging and depth than the DV, a less forward presentation, very low noise. I am sure there are other differences, but this is still too new an addition to the system (about 6 record sides), and variations in loading etc may have a role that I still haven't noticed.

Alucard, what do you like about each of those carts?

Alucard, I appreciate your thorough response. That helps me get a better sense of what you are hearing from the cartridges. I don’t know if I have ever owned an AT cart, so your experience with them is great. Given that I did just throw down on the SS MIMC , I am probably set for the foreseeable future. 
The one thing I will still be looking for is another Ortofon headshell for the TD124 that I can dedicate for 78’s. 
Anyone have good suggestions for a 78 cart? I may need to search archives or repost this as a new thread. 

Tha ks Terry, it was fun researching your suggestions. Miyajima looks interesting. My harder first task is finding an extra headshell for the Ortofon RMG212. 
People are asking $hundreds + which seems steep even for A rare item like this. 

Chakster, glad to get a second vote of confidence for that. I am still trying to get an additional SPU headshell for easy swap outs and its not been easy to locate at non-ludicrous prices on flea bay.