Anyone still interested from the PAS?
I'd give it a go & I'm sure many still are |
There is a thread at the link below where you can introduce yourself and help start the group. As of now, it is only a jumble of monikers and email addresses I have accumulated. I am not in charge.
To post, you will have to register. It's as easy to do so as at the asylum or audiogon. Harmonicdiscord likewise does not spam.
The introductory thread for your participation is here, I think:
http://www.harmonicdiscord.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9540
(Unfortunately, I made some flawed edits to my posts, but I suppose they don't have to be perfect.) |
I've just registered with HarmonicDiscord board and will be posting some additional information there once I receive my registration key. Did not know that a Philadelphia forum existed. Thank you, Suits_me, for trying to create some additional exposure here for that forum.
I live in the suburbs just west of Philadephia -- moved here about a year ago -- and would be interested in meeting some folks who share a passion for audio. My interests are focused on 2-channel reproduction with vinyl as my preferred source. I've been part of the audio lunatic fringe for over 30 years and I've always enjoyed getting to know others nearby who are similarly addicted. "Clubs" may come and go, but being able to get together informally with others to share music and systems and experiences is something I always value. |
Invitation...
Those in the Philadelphia area who have some interest in getting together informally to share some music, listen to some different equipment or listen to one another's systems, are encouraged to post here and to send an e-mail to one of us already posting here.
To get things kicked off, I have extended an open invitation to my house for Sunday afternoon, January 5, from 2:00 p.m to 5:00 p.m. So far, we have interest from two people. (Two others have other commitments but would like to come when we schedule another date -- which we will.)
If you're interested in coming over to share some music and listen to one user's system (mine), please send me an e-mail through Audiogon with your direct e-mail address, your name and your home telephone number (no cell phones, please). I'll get call you with directions.
Please DO NOT post your phone number or address in this public area. |
Hi there.
Sorry I missed it, was finishing up my vacation. How was it? What did you listen to? Did you compare any gear? I offer my small place and simple system for next meeting if y'all are interested.
-Sandy |
Hi again, sorry for the quick re-post. My user name on Audiogon is VerteWax, but Sounding Board Audio posted my personal introduction under TapeSonic on Harmonic Dischord. Should we all maybe copy our introductions over to this thread? |
Hi, Vertewax. Sorry we missed you yesterday. We had a small, but enjoyable, informal gathering of just three of us. Several people who had wanted to come were unable to do so for one reason or another.
If you like, please e-mail me directly through Audiogon with your direct e-mail address, your name and your home telephone number (no cell phones, please), and I'll get more details to you.
As you can tell, nothing formal is established at this point -- we're just in the process of exchanging information amongst each other to find where we may have some common interests to get together. Thanks for your offer to host a meeting. I'm willing to do the same, so I'm sure we will have several of us interested in getting together again sometime in the next few weeks.
Best regards, Rushton |
This is a transplant of some of my posts at harmonic discord. My name is Hugh. I got started when a high end impresario named Herb Hamburger walked into the Lafayette Radio Electronics I worked at as a teenager and began talking about Thiel, Symdex, Gale and other little known, at the time, oddities. A bit later in Boston, I spent a good amount of time in the New England Conservatory of Music's great Jordan Hall, and then did a stint at the Apt Corp. in its heyday.
This club could have informal listening sessions in people's homes, orchestrate field trips to the better local dealers by prior appointment, petition these dealers to host manufacturers' dog and pony shows that interest us, or serve as auditioning panels for members who are designing equipment. Trips to unamplified concerts would also seem logical. (This rules out Verizon Hall on some occasions, incidentally.)
Philadelphia Area Audio Group (PAAG) is the current suggestion for a name. I'd like a permission by absence of objection to send a club listing to Stereophile, at least. I'll post suggested copy here for people to comment on. Or go ahead and fashion a statement of your own in the meantime for our perusal.
As noted, "we" had our first meeting recently courtesy of Rushton's hospitality. Let's just say it was tubes and rarefied vinyl, and there were no fist-fights to get the sweet-spot. (Sometimes people don't want exact equipment details published on the net since it is the net....)
If you have any other questions or business which can be answered (or dodged), please keep the dialogue going here. |
Hello all, this is a repost of my intro from Harmonic Dischord (I was never able to successfully register there).
- - - - - - - -
It's cool to find a Philly area audio group... I look forward to participating, learning, helping, and listening.
I am fairly new to the gear part of this whole scene, but have been into music for a while. I'm 35. As a teenager, I was very into the Who, The Clash (long live Joe Strummer), English Beat, REM, Minutemen, etc. While in college in Pittsburgh, I got into the whole "College Music" scene with the likes of Dumptruck, Chameleons UK, Feelies, etc. I was in my first band in college with two friends from art school... we were called the "Stinky Bovines" and we were two guitarists, a bass player, and a drum machine playing at parties and the like... heavily influenced by REM, The Feelies, VU, Camper Van Beethoven, The Jazz Butcher, Lloyd Cole, etc.
When I graduated and moved to NYC, I was very into the brit music scene with the Sundays, Stone Roses, The Jam, etc. Joined my first band as a guitar player in NYC, then called "Feast Of Saints," now called "Scout." Female-led lite goth. Played all the local and some of the east coast venues.
Decided it was more fun to be in a band and spend all that time with close friends, so I started another band with a bunch of my friends from Carnegie-Mellon. We were called "Ms. Lum," and we ended up getting a record contract with Bar-None Records in Hoboken... home of They Might Be Giants, Yo La Tengo, Freedy Johnston, etc. We did pretty well... of course it didn't last forever. There were some other bands afterwards, but then I had my first child (son) and playing music took a back seat to listening to music. For a while I was making electronic-based music solo at home... Was very into Underworld, Laika, DJ Shadow, etc. Am still very into alternative and indie music... some of my recent favorites: Coldplay, the Doves, Sigur Ros, Radiohead, etc.
My obsession with musical equipment and recording transformed into a mild and cost-constrained (due to the kid) obsession with audio equipment. When we moved from Brooklyn to Philly, I decided I was going to dedicate a room in my new house to 2-channel audio. My system is modest but I think it sounds great. I have done some upgrading since I bought it a few years ago. Now it consists of: Redgum rgi60 integrated amp, Rega Planet cd player, Heybrook TT2/Linn Basik Plus/Grado Platinum feeding a Gram Amp 2 phono preamp. The cables are various: Monster, StraightWire, JPS Labs, the speakers are Linn Keilidh's. The total system cost was around $5000. So you can see my system is modest, but I think it sounds great and I listen to it daily. Still play guitar once in a while, and have a drum kit in my basement that I play once in a blue moon... but listening to great sounding music is my release these days.
After setting up the system I fell in love with simple jazz. Named my second child (daughter) Ella, after the lady herself! Am really into small group jazz from the late 50's and early 60's... Miles Davis, Dexter Gordon, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green, John Coltrane, Cannonball Adderly, etc. Have a couple dozen jazz cd's and building a nice collection of Jazz vinyl... my latest and favorite hobby.
Anyway, being a dad of two, it's hard to get to concerts, but my favorite dates are nights out with the wife or friends to Ortlieb's Jazz House in the Northern Liberties... my favorite part of Philly!
Currently I work as a Design Director for a small interactive software and website design firm here in Philly. I am willing to do any design work: newsletters, logos, website, etc. that this group would be looking for. I would love to hear many other systems and see about the best ways to improve mine. Of course looking to meet like-minded music and gear fanatics. Thanks for reading.
-Sandy Greene
Vertewax on Audiogon |
I’m glad to find some other people in the Philadelphia area who share my interest in good audio reproduction. And I look forward to the opportunity to get together to share some music, sound systems and experiences.
A little bit about me: I've been on the "lunatic fringe" of our shared passion for 30 years. My system is geared to vinyl playback, and I'm addicted to tube electronics because good tube gear always sounds to me most natural and true to the harmonic overtones of acoustic music. Did I say I prefer acoustic music? Yes, 98% of my listening is to acoustic music -- primarily classical (from ancient music to contemporary), with a good dose of folk, blues and Celtic. But I do also enjoy a sojourn with rock, even if my musical awareness may be somewhat dated and represented by Pink Floyd, Queen, Janis Joplin, Moody Blues, Rough Trade, Dire Straits, et al. My dedication to vinyl for my personal listening is evident by the record collection... With over 4,000 LPs and less than 50 CDs, I think you might get the picture. Also, I'm committed to the school of "high quality, minimal conveniences" in my equipment -- no remote control, no linestage, no tone controls or signal processing -- turntable direct-in to dual mono phonostage, direct to mono amps.
Did I say I like tube equipment? Hmmm, tube phonostage, all tube power supplies, all tube amplifiers. Does it sound warm, rich, sweet?? Nope, not a bit. The wonderful old Marantz 9 tube amps I lived with and loved for many many years sounded warm and sweetly euphonic. But contemporary high quality tube equipment has none of that classic euphonic signature -- just incredibly quick with wonderful ability to recreate the full shadings of harmonic overtones that, for me, the best solid-state gear just never manages to match. But, of course, system synergy is ultimately what counts -- its never just the individual components, it's all about the interaction and balancing of those components to create a system.
So, these are my biases based on my years of enjoying this shared passion of ours. We all have our own based on our musical and listening priorities. I look forward to getting to know some of you who live in or near the Philadelphia area and who share my love of well reproduced music. |
Invitation - Choose a date...
Once again I offer an invitation to my house for those in the Philadelphia area who have an interest in getting together to share some music, listen to some different equipment and get to know one another. I am getting my record collection unpacked, so the vinyl selection here will be significantly more extensive this visit. Also, I encourage anyone coming to bring some of their favorite music to share.
I thought the best way to do this would be to propose some alternative dates and allow thread participants to express their preferences. So, please post your preference for a date or time from among the following alternatives, or contact me directly off-thread, and I will try to determine what the consensus appears to be and post the final date.
Saturday, January 25, either morning or afternoon
Sunday, January 26, either morning or afternoon
Saturday, February 1, either morning or afternoon
Sunday, February 2, either morning or afternoon
Saturday, February 8, either morning or afternoon
Sunday, February 9, either morning or afternoon
(Regrettably, weeknights do not work well for me.)
Please DO NOT post your phone number or address in this public area.
Best regards, Rushton |
Hi there.
Thanks for hosting Rushton.
Any weekend morning works for me.
Thanks,
Vertewax. |
Any of those dates and times appear to work for me, but in general I prefer avoiding mornings, where possible, due to the commute from CC. Thanks. Hugh |
I live in Voorhess, but I work in Philadelphia.
Would be interested in joining audio club.
Thank you. |
My vote is for February 9th (preferably afternoon, since I'm not a morning person). I won't be back in Philadelphia until February 6th so only Feb 8th and 9th will work for me.
Thanks for organizing this, Rushton!
Michael |
Where, in general, do you live Rushton?
I live close to the Art Museum on Green Street. Any others living in or near center city?
My primary intrest at this point is recording, and of course listening to, live (amplified) music. Most of the material comes from small local venues like the Northstar and Tritone. Only one attempt at the Kimmel Center so far, but with very nice results.
I'm also a big fan of tubes and vinyl.
Nice you meet you folks!
-Frank Maiello |
Sunday, February 9 in the afternoon appears to be the consensus for a meeting date and time. Given that, let us schedule this next meeting on that Sunday afternoon from 2:00 p.m. until 5:00 p.m.
Thanks to each of you who have posted here. I've additionally heard from a number of people who contacted me directly to express their interest and preference, so the full conversation has not been reflected in the thread. To those of you who posted, I believe I have responded directly to each of you. If I missed you, I apologize.
I hope those of you who have not yet posted an introduction here will do so!
If you are able to come on February 9 and need directions to my house, please contact me directly and include your full name and home telephone number in your e-mail. To manage these in-home invitational meetings, we are trying to do a bit of verification through a reverse telephone lookup the first time around -- hopefully this will not discomfort anyone.
I hope you will be able to join us, and I look forward to meeting each of you.
Best regards, |
I'm interested. I live in Bucks in Richboro. I got hooked back in the 70's in high school so I'm old school and so is most of my musical taste. |
Just a quick note about a future event we have an opportunity to plan together. As a result of my merciless, albeit altruistic, spamming of Philly region resident audioasylum folks, we have contacted a high end speaker manufacturer and electronics importer in Ambler. He and his partner are willing to do a seminar for our group later in the year, "when the weather is nicer." The company prefers not to post here, so we agreed to leave the exact id vague - although how many high end speaker companies are there based in Ambler? It should be good. |
Sounds good! I live in Newtown, Bucks County. It would be great to escape from the Asylum and meet some loonies in the real world.
Dan |
Hello all,
I live in Sprigfield and would love to meet others whom I share this hobby with. Feb 9th? I'd like to attend. |
Hi. I'm new to Audiogon and this posting business--chat rooms are not something I do often. I live in King of Prussia; been addicted to this stuff for 26 years now--my equipment taste far exceeds my budget so if we arrange anything at my place we'll be listening to Rega/B+W/B+K/ etc. but that said, I think any system can be a lot of fun with the right music and the right friends.
I love acoustic jazz,classical and venture into blues from time to time. I also collect 78s, but that's for another discussion board.
I made it to Rushton's for the first listening session--it was great and I'd love to hear what others have. I'll be there on the 9th and am willing to host sometime.
Would love to hear from others! |
Hello Rushton:
Yes, I can be at the meeting.
I'll send my phone number via E-mail
Thank you |
If the invitation still stands, I would like to join on Feb. 9.
I've posted over on Harmonic Discord, but this seems to be an easier read, for me at least.
I also live in Newton, Pa. and would love to meet others.
The Ambler, Pa. outing sounds great.
Drop a line by e-mail and I will return the call.
Thanks again for the initiative
John P. McAlpin |
I have sent emails to Rushton and Hugh to get engaged in this club. I live in the Malvern area. I can possibly make the Feb 9 meeting. Please respond to those emails or this post to verify that I am doing this right. Never tried an Audiogon thread before. |
To all who have recently posted here, Welcome! There are probably another 6-8 people who have not posted a message here but who have contacted me or Hugh directly. It's a pleasure to see this amount of interest in the Philadelphia area.
If you have not already done so, consider posting a little bit about your audio interests, your listening priorities, music you like, what brought you to this hobby, etc., so that we can each learn a bit about each other. (But remember that this is the Web... So be thoughtful about what you disclose and certainly do not post your phone number or address in this space.)
Regarding the invitation to my house on February 9, if everyone to whom I've sent directions comes we are close to the listening room's capacity. If you have an interest in joining us on the 9th, email me through Audiogon with your full name and home telephone (no cell phones please). If I can reverse lookup your telephone number to verify your home address, I'll be in touch with you with directions as long as we still have space.
Regards to all, |
Although my stereo interests started way back in my early teens, in earnest things began to solidify in 1975/76. I was attending Penn State U. and was purchasing a new turntable - HarmonKardon ST-7 at Campus Stereo. While in the electronics shop downstairs, I mentioned this to another customer, who was interested in the Sonus Blue Label cartridge that I had purchased and invited me over to his place to hook up my turntable/cartridge into his system and I heard magneplanars for the first time. I have been in the maggie family ever since. I currently have upstairs and downstairs systems. The downstairs system (the big brothers) center around the Magneplanar Tympani IUs, Adcom GF555, Audible illusions Modulus 1a preamp and a Sota Saphire turntable with a Grado cartridge. Like classical and rock music. My upstairs system has migrated now toward DVDs and CDs. This system is centeredd around Magnepan MG 1.5's, and Sony Receiver (easy everyone!) Toshiba DVD/DVD Audio player and Sony Cassett deck. Now I'm into DVD big time! I think they finally have it right with extremely high quality Audio and video that has a reasonable and preferably direct relationship. And the Magnepan MG 1.5s have blown me away with their realistic reconstruction of the natural timbre of anything that makes a sound. That should be a good intro into my current state of affairs. |
Well, the inaugural session of the Philadelphia Audiophile Society (or whatever we will call ourselves) took place today. By any measure, it appeared to be a rousing success. I for one, had a fantastic time. It was truly rewarding experience to meet such fine people. People who live and breath the the hobby with such obvious passion and commitment.
First things first. Thanks to Rushton for his generosity and skills at being the consumate host. Becoming the locus of the first meeting took courage and grace, both of which he possessed aplenty. Thanks Rush!
The meeting attracted folks with diverse musical tastes. I feel that it will hopefully serve as a vehicle to expand all of our knowledge in the future of both genres and artists. I know that I will be seeking out the featured John Coltrane CD, and will inch into classical with the help of everyone else.
It was clear that this was something that we would all welcome as an activity which continues in the future. Lots of folks hit it off, the conversation was both engaging and lively. One thing I realized was that we are not alone in this area. There are a lot of us out here. I would also venture to guess that there are even more of us around. There are strength in numbers, perhaps our little club will someday come to help its members in some way. There were many ideas thrown on the table for how things might happen in the future. Between the music and the conversation, we probably did not have a chance to forge things out into more crystallized plans. But, I think this forum could potentially serve as a place where each person might submit ideas, and we as a group could come to a consensus.
So, in brief, I would like to state that I spent a perfect Sunday with all of you. How much better can life get when we have great people and music? I hope that this momentum will lead us to more in the future.
Thanks to all who I met today, and again, specifically to Rush. |
Nice to meet you all today. Many thanks to Rush. What a wonderful sounding system and I am definitely gonna search out that Lightning Hopkins album! Looking forward to plans for next meeting. -Sandy. |
I also wanted to say thank you to all and specifically to Rush, what a great host. The atmosphere was right, the music was wonderful and the conversations were engaging. It was a pleasure to meet all of you and I look forward to our next gathering, hopefully soon.
Regards
Shahen "Sean" |
Joining the wagon here, the session on Sunday was a total joy. Rush was exemplary in hosting this event. No pressure no expectations made for a very welcome and relaxed atmosphere (or was it atmasphere). Hopefully we can develop this into a fairly regular activity. Rush's system was one of the sweetest systems I've heard ever, with significant detail and accuracy. |
Kudos to Rushton. To the rest of the group it was a pleasure meeting you and I hope to see you all soon. By the way was it the PS Audio Power Port that was getting rave revues in every system tried? |
My thanks to all who were able to come this past Sunday. It was a true pleasure to meet each of you in person, and I was delighted to be able to host such a collegial group of music and audio lovers! Your many kind comments about your time here are appreciated. I look forward to hearing how the group might like to proceed.
Best regards to all, |
Rushton-
I thought I would cross-post to your thread from mine on the Southern New Jersey club. I would be interested in getting together with folks on your side of the Delaware River. My home and system are available as a location for some listening. Although I am somewhat limited in the total number of "seats" in my room for serious listening, a casual get together is always a great way to get to know folks as well. Please keep me in mind for any of your activities down the road. It's great to see so much interest in our neck of the woods! |
Thanks Rushton for being such a great host to our first meeting. I'm still thinking of what a great time I had last Sunday.
I'm wondering what direction we should start heading now. I can think of having meetings that address one or more of the following:
1) Instructional (Examples: Find someone to show us how to position speakers/subwoofers properly, set up a turntable, etc.)
2) Informational (Examples: Someone discusses/demo's new products from a certain manufacturer)
3) Gathering at members' houses (We get to hear different people's systems and what they like/dislike about their gear)
The question is: How should be divide our meetings among those objectives? Obviously, meeting at different people's houses is the easiest, but the other possibilities offer their own rewards.
Comments?
Michael |
Hello, my name is pete, and I'm a vinylholic.
It's been 4 years since I heard tubes and vinyl.
Back then I lived very close to a guy who had the mother of all tube/vinyl systems. We sat in the sweet spot and listened to music. It was not like these "audio club" meetings where everybody talks about the gear so nobody gets to listen to music.
But he was a dealer and his system was so much better than anything I ever heard at Soundex or Overture I found it impossible to visit without rationalizing ways to convince the wife how reasonable it is to own an auxillary high-pressure compressor on a cement pad outside the listening room wall for a record player that spun on a 75 psi air bearing and cost more than a BS from Penn State; and a set of class A tubed mono blocks that need a constant stream of water to keep them from burning the listening room to the ground and required dedicated 13kilavolt 6-nines copper powerlines strung directly from a PECO substation. I think I lost her when I told her we needed to bore holes in the living room wall so I could discharge the spent cooling water into the garden.
I joined a 12-step program and gave control of my life to a higher power (my wife). The kids' 509 plan is intact.
I am powerless over tubes and vinyl.
If anyone lives way way out in the NW suburbs, does SACD or CD, likes simple, pure, acoustic piano, guitar, vocals, classic jazz, with occasional outbursts of intense hard-core 60's-70's rock & roll, I'm there. Please have pity on me and leave the vinyl out of sight. |
I know of someone online in a different context who goes by the moniker "Nerfherder", and I want to join in thanking Rushton for hosting our assembly.
Maybe it's time again to bring up the standing invite I'm pretty sure we have to the high end dealer in Wilmington. Would that be of interest? If so, we also need to know what kinds of times are good for people in case the preferred Sunday afternoon is not an option. I'll wait for some feedback here or off the list. Thanks. Hugh |
I live in Delaware. Is that too far away? I design and build most of my own equipment. |
Welcome, Barney. There is no geographic limit as far as I am concerned. If you would like to join any of our activities, you will be very welcome! Generally speaking, when another group activity is scheduled, one of us will announce it here in the Audiogon forum. If you have more questions, please feel free to e-mail me directly.
Best regards, |
My name is Dave Borda and I have been an audiophile my entire life (I am 41). There, I admitted it ... whew, that wasn't so bad! So, how can I join the club? Look forward to hearing from someone soon. Thanks! |
Hi Dave. The group is highly informal, with no official structure or membership.
We're sort of waiting for the next seminar suggestion or listening session to be made and attract people's attention.
It's spring. Should I try that local speaker manufacturer again? Did anyone go to Montreal? Going to the June San Francisco show? |
Hello all! I am a music fan from birth. I started getting serious about quality home sound reproduction in the late 80's. My pace of progress has been slow, but fun. I have builts TLs, vents, electrostatics and closed boxes over the years. My current primary source is a Merrill modified AR-1. I'm looking to make the leap to tubes with maybe single drivers, Ariels or Hammers. Would love to hear a Dynaco or Eico (was very unimpressed by a Cary against my ss Exposure integreted a year ago). Count me in on some listening sessions in the future. I'll keep checking back. Thank you Rushton for getting the ball rolling.
Sincerely,
Brad |
Hi, My name is Dan. I am a Wolcott Audio dealer and I live in the Media, Pa area. I was hoping to restart the informal listening sessions initiated by Rushton and a few others, so I would like to host a session Sunday, September 28 from 1 to 5. Also, Rushton has offered to be a host again on Sunday, November 9 from 2 to 5. We were hoping this might encourage others to post similar offers for the following months, maybe one session bi-monthly to start, to try to get a schedule established.
If you're interested in coming over, please send me an e-mail through Audiogon with your direct e-mail address, your name and your home telephone number (no cell phones, please). I'll call you with directions.
Feel free to bring some music. I have a two-channel system with a standard CD player and a NAD turntable.
Thanks |
Dan, I look forward to taking you up on your invitation to host an audio gathering at your house on Sunday, September 28. Thank you! I'd love to hear the Wolcott amps.
Thanks for posting my invitation for Sunday, November 9.
Best regards, |
Dan, thank you for hosting the meeting at your house today. My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed the visit and your excellent hospitality!
For those who were able to come, it was nice to re-connect with you and to share updates on what we've been doing. All in all, this was a very enjoyable afternoon of good music and even better fellowship.
I look forward to having everyone join us at my house Sunday, November 9. For those whose email address I have, I will be sending driving directions later in October. If I don't have your email address, please contact me.
Best regards, |
|
Rushton,Dan, and others:
I don't know if you've been following my Southern NJ club thread, but I am offering my home and system for listening and fellowship for folks on both sides of the river as well. I have heard from a couple of folks so far but have yet to set a date. If you are interested, let me know through the AudiogoN emailer. Thanks for posting this. |
Dan,
Thanks again for the hospitality. It was a great afternoon meeting new people and renewing old contacts.
I look forward to November's gathering! |
Invitation... Our next gathering is Sunday, November 9, from 2:00 p.m to 5:00 p.m. at my house. If you live in the Philadelphia area, and would like to meet some other folks who also enjoy good music reproduction, we'd love to have you join us. The focus of this meeting will be sharing some great music while exploring what one vinylholic's playback system can do with those old-fashioned 12" disks.
If you've not already attended one of our meetings and would like to join us on the 9th, please send me an e-mail through Audiogon with your full name and home telephone number (no cell phones, please). I'll call you with directions. |
My belated thanks to Dan for a wonderful afternoon of music and friends last month. Also, my thanks in advance to Rush for hosting this coming Sunday. Looking forward to getting together again to talk music and system, and discover new music; well, music new to me anyway. Thanks again, Jim |
