Some information:
Speaker : Von Schweikert Unifield II on 60cm stands
CD player : Bel Canto CD-2 as transport
DAC : Bel Canto 3.5VB
Preamp : Using the DAC pre amp at the moment
Room : Dedicated Audio room with no other furniture
Around 4meters by 3.5 meters sized room with speaker playing down the long side of the wall. Acoustically treated with absorbers at the sidewall for first reflection.
The front wall is treated with 2D diffuser and at the back of the Speaker with absorbers to control some of the bass.
Music I usually listen to:
10% Rock
30% Jazz
30% Vocals
30% Concerto (Classical music, Instrumental and Movie Soundtracks)
I normally listen at volume of between 70db to 80db max.
I was using the Bel Canto Ref 1000 MK 1 before the Pass Labs XA60.5.
The Pass Labs experience certainly is a very pleasant one. The leaner high and mids of the Class D certainly is now replaced with the liquid and lush high/mid that I appreciate and enjoy a lot. Not mentioning the musicality, natural, neutrality, transparency, PRAT (Pace Rhythm Attack Timing) and bigger soundstage also went up a few notches with the XA60.5. The usual Jazz and Vocals CDs I listened to previously on the Bel Canto Ref 1000s became so much more enjoyable. I could listen to these genres for hours and hours without knowing how fast the time passed and also without any fatigue. I really like the qualities of Class A amps.
However something seems to be missing when I listen to Rock and Concertos (Classical music, instrumental and Movie Soundtracks). It seems that the dynamism, speed and attack are not as fast paced and exciting as the Class D, other wise the others qualities are much superior in the Pass Labs.
The questions I have in mind which hope anyone who have experiences with the XA60.5, XA100.5, X350.5 and Bel Canto Ref 1000s(or any Class D amps) could comment/advise.
1) Any benefits in my listening experience(sonics, dynamism, low transients,etc) if I upgrade the XA60.5 to XA100.5?
Considering unchanged everything else (i.e.listening room, volume and music etc) as mentioned above.
2) I was told XA100.5 could be the amp I could be living with for a long long time even if I planned to upgrade to the VSA VR-4 SR MK3 or VR5 Anni in next 3-5 years if I get a bigger room for pure Audio usage.
3) Would the XA100.5 or the X350.5 be the missing puzzle of what I felt missing with the XA60.5 vs. Class D?
4) Would XA100.5 match the speed,imaging,instrument separations,soundstage and explosive feels vs. the X350.5 when listening to Rock and Concerto (Classical music, Instrumental and Movie Soundtracks)?
I do understand any comments/advise could be solely based on individual views and maybe subjective, however any inputs would greatly be very much appreciated.
Thank you all in advance.
Cheers
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Hi Guys, Thank you for all the inputs.
Pubul57
With your speakers I would not expect much of a difference going from the XA-60.5 to the 100.5, it just doesn't seem like power (a fairly marginal difference here) is the issue, not with your speakers and your room. Did you ask Pass Labs?
07-12-10: Pubul57
Though I did not say it before, I should have added that IMHO the XA60.5 will sound as good, if not better than the XA100.5 IF it provides enough power to drive your speakers to the volume levels you want, and in the case of your speakers, that would seem to be the case. All things being equal, my opinion is that the same basic circuit design sounds better in a lower watt configuration than higher watt because it is a simpler device at lower watts. My general rule is buy as many watts as you need, but no more than you need.
Hi Paubl, As my speakers are in 4 ohms, the difference in terms of Pure Class A wattages powering are 120watts@4ohms for XA60.5 and 200watts@4ohms for the XA100.5, in addition the XA100.5 has a damping factor of 200 instead of 150 in the XA60.5 and X350.5. Not too sure if increase of 50units damping factor will be a big improvement effect to the speaker I am using. The Unifield 2s are 91db/1m @ 4ohms min. Pass Labs advised if I want an amp able to run most if not all speakers in a mid to large room and to keep it for a long long time to come, it would be the XA100.5. I was always told all speakers like wattages, the higher the better.
07-12-10: Tvad
Are you running balanced or single ended from the Bel Canto DAC to the XA-60.5?
The Bel Canto DAC outputs 2.5Vrms single ended and 5.5Vrms balanced. If you're running single ended it's *possible* dynamics are being affected, and you might try running balanced instead.
At the volume levels you normally listen, there will be no discernible difference between the XA-60.5 and XA-100.5, IMO. At 98dB peaks, you're only using 8 watts of power.
Hi Tvad, I am connecting using balanced outputs from the Bel Canto DAC. I am thinking if the higher wattage(120w vs 200w @ 4ohms),higher damping factor(150 vs 200)higher output Voltage(32 vs 41) and higher output Amps(20 vs. 28) will bridge the gap on dynamism, speed/explosive transient between the XA.5 and Class Ds.
07-12-10: Peterayer
I went from the XA100.5 to the XA160.5. My speakers are a very demanding load and I thought I would need more power/current. I first demoed my speakers with the XA30.5 and they sounded a bit restricted during loud classical passages. My XA100.5 was better so I considered the XA160.5. I called Kent at Pass and he said I would get a bit more of everything. He was right. Better dynamics, larger soundstage, more effortlessness, better air, better control of bass. All this in a small room at moderate volume 75-90 dB. Music just became more involving. The improvement was not huge, but better in every way. For me, it was definitely worth the upgrade cost.
I am not familiar with your speakers and have not heard the XA60.5. I suggest you contact Pass Labs and describe your situation. I also have not heard the X350.5, but if you like the pure Class A sound and the XA100.5 is enough for you, it might just be the ticket.
Hi Peterayer, I have enjoyed your review of the XA100.5 very much think its hard to improve the experience. The higher level models of the XA.5 must be really something.Cannot imagine what the XA200.5 could provide. For me XA100.5 is the furthest I could stretch. Not sure if the benefits of X350.5 on dynamism, speed/explosive transient,high Class AB 700watts @4ohm will make me forget the smooth liquid mid/high of the XA.5 Class A power. No best of 2 worlds as one would say I guess.
07-12-10: Rtn1
Does the meter on the XA60.5 bump around alot? If it moves on more than an occasion, go with the bigger amps.
Your description of the sound of Rock and Concertos with the XA60.5 does sound like a potential power issue.
Hi Rtn1, The meter does bump/swing slightly when i am playing rock and concertos at about 80db volume, but it does not pass the 12 o'clock mark.
Elmerpoh, how far from the speakers do you sit? Is this the distance from which you measure your listening volume?
If so, measure again from your listening position, and then move to 1 meter from one of the speakers, measure this volume and report it here. Try to measure a loud music peak. Be sure to point your decibel meter at one speaker or the other...not down the center.
Hi Tvad, I am sitting at the sweet spot location which is about 2.2meters away from the left and right speaker. I am only taking the listening volume from the volume level shown on my Bel Canto DAC acting as pre amp. At the moment i do not have a SPL meter, will try to find one to do some measurements. Cheers |
Hi Kenl,
Yes,The reviews are pretty much true, the Pass Labs XA indeed have magical mids and highs.. You need to hear them...
Regarding heat from the XAs, no issue since you have air conditioning in your listening room.
When I listen to few hours of music with the XA60.5 without air conditioning, they only run slightly hot to touch(I.e. could still touch the heat fins for about 8-10 secs).
Cheers |
07-13-10: Pubul57
"I was always told all speakers like wattages, the higher the better."
I do think all speakers need enough watts to perform well, the quantity varies with the speaker, room, music, and loudenss preferences. I also know folks like VTL will suggest you need 1,000 watts to really allow speakers to blossom. That being said, I think there is always (almost always?)a loss in quality as watts go up for a specific circuit design, but that can be a fair tradeoff if your speakers need the power, and some speakers do need alot of power, or more importantly current to drive low and dipping impedances. I think that on speakers like mine (Merlin VSM)the XA30.5 (which I did own)will sound better than the XA100.5. But I have know doubt the XA100.5 will sound alot better driving Thiel or B&Ws - they need the power and the current. So the question isn't really which is the better amp, but which is the best amp/speaker combo, and I'm not sure why the XA100 would drive your speakers any better than the XA60s (but they might).
Hi Pubul, My main dilemma is: Given everything the same(i.e. speaker,room,listening volume, genre of music i listen to, source,etc) except upgrading from XA60.5 to bigger wattage power of XA100.5(higher damping factor of 200,higher output voltage and current too) or X350.5(higher output voltage and current), Should I expect improvement on dynamism, speed/explosive transient to draw closer the gap between Class A or A/B with the Class D that I previously owned. From what I read from Peterayer's reply, it seem higher wattage model of the XA.5 models does indeed have better overall presentation of sound in the same given speaker(though I am not using the Mini II). Wonder will there be actually a plateau of overall presentation on sonics quality where a given speaker no longer will/can improve further when using a higher model amplifier of the same brand. Cheers |
07-13-10: Onhwy61
If I understand your situation correctly you will have the opportunity to listen to both amplifiers. You will have a better chance of making a good decision if you listen to each one without expectations of what they will or won't do. Listening without preconceptions is a good thing.
07-13-10: Pubul57
I would expect the XA-100.5 to be "better" than the XA60.5 with the WP Sasha, that amp/speaker combo is better suited to the needs of the WP. But, as Onhwy61 points out, listening is worth 10,000 threads on the topic (now if you can only get rid of preconceptions during the listening - hard to do sometimes).
Hi Onhwy/Pubul, My local dealer unfortunately does not have the XA100.5 or X350.5 in demo to listen/audit. I was even unable to hear XA60.5 before commiting. However prior putting my cash down, I was able to audit the X260.5(mono blocks) and XA30.5 on Sonus Faber Auditor M as the dealer is also a Sonus dealer. I like the mids and highs on the XA.5 but the XA30.5 lows was abit loose and not as articulate sounding as the X260.5. Thinking the XA60.5 monoblocks should better that concern and XA60.5 in my room indeed does better than what i heard on XA30.5 at the dealer's premises. If not issue in one of the XA60.5's transformer,I would not be given the chance to change/upgrade models. Maybe sometime chance of choices are not that good afterall.
07-13-10: Jpspock
I own a XA100.5 with WP Sasha. Before buying tha XA100.5, I compared it with a XA60.5 that is a very great amp. The difference between both is the bass are far better articulate,with XA100.5. I compared the XA100.5 with the X350.5, and I prefered the XA60 because it's much more musical, you feel more involved into the music. So if you do not need the power of the XA100, go to XA60.5.
Hi Jpspock, For my info, did you manage to try the XA100.5 and XA60.5 on the same WP Sasha? Was the comparison on the XA60.5 and X350.5 on the same speakers as well? Fully agree that the XA.5 has more magical high and mids than the X.5, that was what i felt when i hear the X260.5 and XA30.5 both on the Sonus Faber Auditor M. |
07-14-10: Peterayer
Elmerpoh,
I must have misunderstood you. I thought from your original post that the dealer is getting new stock (both the X350.5 and the XA100.5) in the next 3-4 weeks. I assumed you would simply be able to listen and compare them to your XA60.5 at the shop or better in your system. Now it seems that these will not be available to you to demo/audition in your own system. Is that the purpose of this thread? The dealer will have these for you to purchase, but you will not be able to listen to each ahead of time? That is the only way to really know for yourself.
I agree with Jpspock. The pre amp makes a big difference and the Pass units sound great with the Pass amps. Have you considered getting a preamp and just repairing the XA60.5 instead of upgrading the amp? I would ask Pass or the dealer if this makes more sense.
Peter
1) I have always benefitted from more power with my Pass amps. Enough power to drive a given speaker to certain SPL is one thing, for the speaker to sound it's best is often another. For me, the XA160.5 sounds considerably better driving my Mini II's (87dB, 4 ohm) than did my XA100.5. Elmerpoh may prefer the sound of the XA100.5 to the XA60.5 even if it seems like the added power is not needed.
2) Elmerpoh may benefit more from a Pass pre amp with his existing XA60.5 than with the XA100.5 and using his DAC directly for roughly the same money.
3) The only way to be really sure which amp he will prefer is to listen to the X350.5 and the XA100.5 in his own system if this is possible. The dealer may not allow this. It is unclear.
I have always bought the biggest Class A Pass amp I could afford at the time, and with my speakers, Eggleston and Magico, the sound has benefitted.
Hi Peter, I am unable to have any head to head hearing of the XA60.5,XA100.5 and X350.5 as my dealer does not allow unsold open boxes. I do agree that pre amp can makes a some difference of the sound amplified out to the speakers. Was told there are 2 school of thoughts on pre amp; 1)If I do not have more than 1 source, maybe better to connect the DAC directly to the power amp since the DAC has decent pre amp qualities. 2)Adding a pre amp to give the finishing touch of sound before its being amplified by the power amp to the speakers. Point 2 actually make me think whether using a decent Tube Pre with the X350.5 makes the sonic qualities compare with the XA.5 series(especially lush/bodied/liquid mids and highs). I agree with the point 1 & 2 you made. Does agree that 120w @ 4ohms is sufficient for my speakers in my room, just trying to establish whehther what improvement I can expect by going from XA60.5 to XA100.5 with all else being unchange. Point 3 is something which I am trying to get views from someone which has heard them before since i am unable to do. So far I can gather the following choice given unable to hear them side by side: 1) Get a replacement set or repair the XA60.5(which i am not happy with the bottom end sonics), maybe add a pre to the XA60.5 to seek better sonics on the lows. 2)Swap for the X350.5 and match with a decent tube preamp to touch up the mids/highs. 3)Swap the XA60.5 with XA100.5 and get a Pass pre amp at later stage. Cheers |
Excellent and very valid points guys,
I will need to have a good talk with my dealer.
Hope this unfolds well...
Thank you all for the inputs.
Cheers |
Hi Peter,
Thanks for checking back.
Can you believe I am still waiting for the stock of Pass labs amps to arrive my local distributor. It's been close to 3 months in about a weeks time.
Would love to give you some views of the jump from the xa60.5 to xa100.5 which I intends to do.
Still waiting anxiously.... The dealer says the shipment is on the water and I got that since 1 month ago and still avail.
Will definitely update my views of the sound when I have the xa100.5 settled my small audio room.
Cheers |
Hey Guys,
Just an update, finally my long wait for the XA100.5 ends 2 days ago.
Have it delivered, setup and running in my room.
Played for first 3 hours and already noticed the benefits of having more headroom even if its not required.
Cannot wait to run them in another 100hrs before giving further views against what i had previously experienced with the XA60.5.
Cheers |
Hi Guys,
Apologies for the late update, was tied up and seldom log into the site.
Yes, I've upgraded to the XA100.5 and used the same VSA Unifield 2s on the 100.5 and 60.5.
What I felt from different amps on the same speaker, the 100.5 sure have more headroom, and sounds less congested when playing heavy tracks(classical and live rock concert). The beautiful mids are similar to the 60.5 but do feel there's slightly more definition and resolution with the 100.5 on the mids and highs hence the soundstage sounds more focus. Some increase in width and height on the soundstage too.
Overall, the music picture portrayed by the 100.5 is towards a denser and complete sound if compared with the 60.5.
The 60.5 is a great amp, but with higher Pure Class A watts using the same design does better it and it should being a higher cost model.
If one can stretch, go for the 100.5. I agree from some of the comments I read and heard, the 100.5 is the sweet spot model among the XA.5 series in Pass Labs.
Now as they say, nothing is perfect. Coming to the down side of 100.5, I am always craving for even more resolution, more speed and a tighter and more defined low ends from them especially when I am listening for live music concerts on classical or rock. Believe this is the design and characteristic of Pass Labs sounding slightly layback with benefit of a more beautiful mids and highs.
I have since moved on and am very happy what I can achieve with the Soulutions.
Cheers |
