Sean, absolutely agree with you. The mahlers do have a rounded big bass. That was the biggest difference between the Pass X350.5 and cj prem 350. Bass was a lot tighter and more musical on the cj. Someone who owns a speaker with leaner sounding bass may prefer the Pass X350.5.
Re speaker cables. I used transparent ref XL, harmonic pro9 and borrowed some Kimber 3035 for most of the listening. All great insanely expensive cables. The transparent was clearly the least suited to my system sounding warm and bloated with little extension - this all relative compared to the harmonic and kimber.
The transparents can sound wonderful in say a Wilson or brightish sounding system. Any way I have sold them now to someone who will be able to appreciate them better than I.
I have Nordost Valhalla cables from TT to phono, phono to pre and pre to power. Most people think these sound lean or bright. yes they certainly have sounded like that to me as well. However in my current config they sound warm, transparent and focused, which pretty much matches the sound of my components.
If the valhalla's sound bright, it is one of your components that is making the brightness, not the cable.
anyway, happy listening |
Downunder: Nordost's "design formula" for cabling can work well for interconnects, but it is simply electrically out of place for speaker cabling in a perfectly balanced system. This is not to say that their speaker cables are horrid, but that they definitely introduces specific sonic characteristics into a system due to the electrical characteristics that Nordost chose to work with.
Let's look at a circuit diagram of our system as a whole. Common sense should tell us that combining an amplifier with an output impedance of less than a tenth of an ohm ( most SS amps ) with a speaker that is roughly eight ohms and connecting the two with cabling that is well above 100 ohms would skew our electrical results. In raw figures, it would look like .1 ohm ( amp ) into 100+ ohms ( Nordost ) into 8 ohms ( speaker ). Obviously, there is an impedance bottle-neck which would create both a mismatch and a lack of proper loading / current flow characteristic. This is exactly what happens and the end result is a reduction in low frequency output, which is current driven.
That lack of current "chokes" the low frequency signal, which in a system that is already on the heavy sounding side, tends to balance things out. That balance is not achieved due to increased control ( exactly the opposite ), but due to a lack of signal being introduced into the speaker to excite that specific problem.
If the speaker is putting out too much bass, simply reducing the amount of signal fed into it helps to achieve a more linear output. This would be equivalent to turning down the low frequency controls on a preamp or equalizer. On the other hand, using an amp / cable with an "iron grip" wouldn't allow the system to over-compensate for a non-linearity in the output of a speaker. It would simply deliver the signal to the speaker which would excite it into the non-linear output of acoustic energy that it tends to naturally display. In effect, the only way that an amplifier could compensate for the non-linear output of a speaker would be if the amplifier itself was non-linear and / or using some type of active circuitry to monitor the output of the speaker itself i.e. "motional feedback".
With that in mind, i've always said that Nordost speaker cables would work well with speakers that lack proper damping in the low frequencies and / or are soft sounding on the top end. They tend to highlight a specific section of the audio spectrum, but do so at the expense of the opposite end of sound. This would explain why you're having such good system synergy with the Valhalla's, the CJ and your Vienna's i.e. both the amp and speaker cabling are somewhat lean sounding / lacking in low frequency capacity, which helps to balance out the abundant "warmth" in the speakers.
The end result is that the system sounds balanced, but in the long run, there really is a "scientific" & "mathematical" reason as to why it sounds as good and / or "tonally balanced" as it does. Had you been using different speakers, you're results would have most assuredly been different in terms of the cabling & amp that you thought sounded best. In your system with your specific componentry, i'm sure that the Nordost's don't sound lean. Then again, you're not just listening to the Nordost's, but to the entire system as a whole.
This is why i've tried to teach that one needs to pick their source, speakers and speaker cabling first, then look at the rest of the system from there. Speakers are the toughest choice, as they involve proper room loading conditions, specific placement considerations, various spl requirements, etc...
Maintaining a high level of electrical and sonic accuracy at both ends of the chain simply means that the components in the middle need to maintain that accuracy with the least amount of distortions. After that, the only other variable involved is how much power one needs in order to properly drive those specific speakers in that specific listening environment. Choosing speaker cabling that is electrically compatible with the speakers and loading characteristics of the amp simply allows one to hear more of what the amp and support components can deliver while minimizing one more variable in the equation.
This approach may not be as fun as the "trial & error" approach of buying and trying a million different speaker cables and / or components, but it is surely more consistent and far less costly. Whether one likes the "electrical accuracy" that such an approach brings with it is strictly a matter of personal preference and how good of a job they did in choosing the source and speakers. That takes into account that the other parts of the signal chain aren't extremely lossy or introducing their own distortions into the equation. Sean
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PS... It should be pointed out that the above comments are specifically discussing Nordost's speaker cabling and their electrical characteristics, not the entire line of Nordost products. As mentioned above, the electrical characteristics of their interconnects shouldn't present a problem / introduce gross electrical errors into most systems. That is, so long as the nominal impedance of the cable "somewhat agrees" with the nominal input and output impedances of the mating components. I'm not familiar with the design of their digital, video or power cords, so i can't comment on those.
As is usual, i'm simply sharing my point of view on the subjects being discussed. How much weight or validity one wants to assign to my comments is strictly up to them as an individual. |
Sean,
What low impedance speaker cabling are you talking about?
I would like to know - any brands?
Thanks,
bill |
Sean. You seem to be getting a little technical for me at least.
Not sure how you know that Nordost have an impedance of over 100+ ohms. The only technical information on thye Nordost or Harmonic technology site ie resistance of approx 0.002 ohms per ft.
BTW, I do not have Nordost speaker cables, only their interconnects.
Interestingly a lot of users and reviewers use Nordost speraker cable on a lot more than "fat" sounding speakers. I guess they must have something else fat or dull sounding in their system to compensate - yes??
First time I have ever heard cj referred to as lean sounding, but I guess you have heard the new prem 350 as well as the Valhalla speaker cables which are not part of my system, but are contributing to my balancing act of my fat speakers. doh!
Rather than come up with quite interesting technical stories, why not give some examples of the low impedance cables you so strongly recommend.
cheers |
Mr Bill: I mentioned a specific value for speaker cable impedances i.e. less than 20 ohms. There are quite a few cables that achieve that figure or better. The first that come to mind are Goertz, Electrofluidics, which is a generic clone of Goertz made in the UK, several different Kimber models, Empirical Audio, etc... Whether or not all of these cables meet other particular electrical criteria or are to one's liking is another matter. Downunder: I re-read your above post and found my mistake. You specifically mention having the Valhalla's as interconnects, but you did so right after being critical of the Transparent speaker cables. I leapt to the assumption that you had replaced them, along with the other cabling in your system, with Nordost products. My mistake and i appologize. As to the CJ SS amps that i've heard in the past, they typically tend to sound somewhat soft in the deep bass, a little elevated in the warmth region and slightly soft and smooth up top. It is a pleasant presentation albeit somewhat reminiscent of a "moderate" tubed sound. In effect, they are "lean" sounding to me as they don't have the commanding low frequency response that one expects from a large, high powered SS amp. In effect, an amp without "slam" is "leaner" than an amp with great low frequency slam and impact. I guess it is a relative term with varying degrees, but i could see how one could be confused by my terminology. As to what reviewers use or endorse, does that make the component or cabling "good"? Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on the reviewer and what they were discussing. I've used / heard many products that reviewers think sounds good and i know them to be horrid performers, both electrically and sonically. To be specific, the Valhalla speaker cables may work quite well with poorly designed vented speakers that lack damping, of which there are 10x more available than there are good speakers on the market. As such, mating a coloured cable with a speaker of the opposite colouration might help to balance things out. As to the Vienna's being "fat", if you read a review of one of their products in Stereophile and their later comments about those speakers, they specifically state that they had a very hard time positioning these speakers in-room when trying to achieve natural sounding bass. I'm not making that up, nor have my own ears deceived me when forming a similar opinion of their product line after listening to them on several different occassions. When first hearing them, i thought the bottom end sounded very reminiscent of a few different Legacy models i.e. heavy bass peaking with a complete lack of definition or articulation. Sean > |
Down under, does that mean you are Australian? With all due respect to all the above cable and amp comments, I have found my H2O Signature monos harmonize perfectly with the simplest of simple, Speltz Anti-Cables. I get great extension and sparkling clarity. That's with my 1 ohm Scintillas. |
Sean, I agreed with you re the Vienna's leaning towards the fat spectrum v the lean side. that is why I bought them.
there are not many neutral products, just someone's own version of neutral - which is a legitimate reason.
Muralman - Yes all the way downunder in Sydney. I sold the transparent and went back to the old harmonic's as they sounded better with current config.
Even thou I am not looking for speaker cables - I had a quick look at the anticable web site and iven the pricing of the anti cables it would seem a cheap option to try them out. Even all the way down in Sydney.
Are these cables quiet?.
I bought some local cable from radio shack type place a mnth or so ago to try. nice extenstion and transparancy, but huge amounts of noise.
cheers Shane |
Well, I've heard the cables on various speakers, and in place of some awful good stuff, by MIT, Transparent, Shunyata, and Kimber. In every case, we all heard more detail, and extension. If the cable were noisy, how are we hearing fainter signals? I'm not arguing. I'd just like to know. |
Muralman, that is good that the cables are quiet.
Reason for my question is that sometimes with more treble extension there is more noise. That is important to me as I primarily listen to vinyl which is noisier than CD from a background noise level. |
oooohhhh yeah.... Yes, they are truth serum. They would have a party on vinyl . :) |
Sorry guys, but I have to whole-heartedly disagree with your impressions of the JC-1 monoblocks.
Granted, mine are fully broken-in and I do use Signal Cable Magic Power Cords with them...a big improvement over the stock cords, IMHO. I am also using a Pass Labs X-2.5 preamp, with a Signal Cable Magic Digital Reference shielded power cord. This makes a real good improvement as well.
Gobs of global feed-back or not, I DO NOT find them boring or closed in in the mids and highs at all. They are very smooth, but at the same time they have exceptional speed, transparency, focus, air, detail, and neutrality. Imaging and soundstaging are first rate! Bass extension, control, and extension are also first rate.
They are by a wide margin the best amps I have heard in my system, or in any one elses for that matter.
Michael Fremer and Sam Telling hit the nail on the head when they described the sonics of these amps in Stereophile, and Tellig still uses them as a personal reference.
They MUST be FULLY-BROKEN IN and well WARMED up for at least 6 hours before any real impressions can be made of them.
Sorry guys, but I, along with all of my friends, absolutely love these amps and I have no immediate plans of selling them at all.
Just my 2 cents. |
Hello,
I also have to agree with daltonlanny about the JC-1's. I own a pair, and could not be happier! They synergize with my system really, really, well.
The Parasound HCA-3500 does at first sound more transparent, clearer, and livelier than the JC-1's, but over the long haul I could never live with them because they are slightly grainy and etched, and can become very fatiguing because of their high harmonic distortion.
I do feel that there is probably some room for improvement, especially in the mids and highs, cause nothing is perfect.
I however, do not feel that they are "closed in", "boring", or "lacking life" in the mids and highs at all.
In my system, they are all the things daltonlanny described above and more. They are very lively, extremely detailed, exciting, and sort of upfront in my system. Never dull!
If they are not fully warmed up or fully broken-in, they can sound lifeless, dull, and boring or closed down in the mids and highs.
I simply do not have this problem at all in my system with these amps. I luv 'em!
Angela |
I can only report on how the JC-1's sounded in my system when I listened to them twice over a 6 mnth period.the second time last week the amps had done approx 500 hours - that should be plenty for any amp to show 95% of what it can do. Both times they were left on for several days, not hours. Standard power cords were replaced with Valhalla cords.
In my system the JC-1's were still towards the bottom of the list with the cj prem 350 just better at sounding more alive and musical compared to any of the bunch. I almost exclusively listen to vinyl, so if you listen to CD that would probably make the JC-1's sound a little more alive in the top end.
This does not discount that they sound great in your system - that is great that you are happy. variety is the spice.
Dalton / audio girl - approx how long before you found the jc-1's sounded getting towards their best?.
Me, living down in Australia can not afford to buy something on the hope that it will get better, you can only buy what sounds better at time of listening. In the US it is a little easier to swap gear if you are not happy via audiogon etc. |
Downunder,
Believe it or not, it took mine almost 1,400 hours to fully open up. Its a real pain in the ass!
I left them on 24/7 for 60 days. Thats also what Bob Crump, one of its designers, also recommends.
For the first 20 to 30 days they were thin and bright, then they became dull, rolled-off, and boring as you described.
But, after about 1,300 hours... BOOM...they opened up with a vengeance and snapped to life! I was amazed to say the least! They still have to "cook" for 6 to 8 hours [warm-up] to sound their best.
Glad you are happy with the Conrad-Johnson premier 350. I have heard alot of good things about them. I would love to audition them in my own system, and especially in Audio_girls system! She has an awesome set-up.
If you did not live so far away in another country, I would consider swapping amps for a couple of weeks just for fun.
But you live so FAR away!
Enjoy your amps...its all about music and what makes you happy.
Happy Listening, my friend.
Lanny |
I'm not doubting that the JC-1's are a nice amp, in every respect. It has a very rich lineage in terms of the designer, circuit lay-out, voicing and parts quality used.
Having said that, when one hears a well designed low / no global feedback design that is well implimented in a system, there's just something about it that a higher global feedback amp seems to lack. You can call it "liquidity", "air", "separation of notes", "life", "sparkle", "midrange palpability", etc... but it is both noticeable and quite audible.
This is not to say that there aren't amps out there using high amounts of global feedback that produce these sonic attributes, but to say that i've never heard one that could deliver such things in both the manner and quantity that a low / no global feedback circuit does. In effect, you CAN have a very good tasting cake, but that doesn't mean that the cake couldn't be just a bit better in certain areas.
Having said that, not everyone likes or desires the same attributes in a cake OR audio gear, so the bottom line boils down to personal preference. Many times, personal preference boils down to what one has been exposed to at the time and / or the listening ability of those involved. As one's experience and education evolves, so does their ability to judge the products on a more even footing. Not only does this change their perspective, it also changes their criteria for what is best suited for their needs and desires within the confines of their system.
Having said that, at this level of performance, we are splitting hairs here. It is kind of like admiring the shimmer and glow in the hair of a beautiful blonde, the rich dark contrasts of a brunette or the fire and sheen of a red-head. All have their drawing points and can be beautiful, yet each is different in their own way. When you find the one that you like and admire the most, who can tell you that you should like one of the others better? While it is true that variety is the spice of life ( don't we all wish??? ), finding something that you can live with over the long haul is both comforting and enjoyable.
Kudo's to you that have done so and are comfortable with your decision. Beauty is obviously in the eye ( and ear ) of the be-holder, so don't take anyone else's criticism of what you have or desire too seriously. If one product ( or human being ) were "perfect" for all situations, there would be no need for the amount of diversity that enables us to make the choices that we have open to us. No product ( or human ) is created equal in all areas, so we have to pick and choose the traits that are most important to us.
As i've always said, buy and use what you like. You're the only one that's going to be using & listening to it on a regular basis. Whether or not i or anyone else like it is trivial at best. Most of us that visit here regularly realize that, and we are simply comparing personal notes & "shootin' the breeze" : ) Sean
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Lanny. Yeah, we live a little too far to swap equipment - at least amps :).
1400 hours is a little too long for anyone to be expected to wait, unless you have all ready put down the mula.
time to put on some more music |
No comparison - the W-10 all the way, and the more affordable W-6's smoke the JC1s. Remember, the Parasounds are built in Taiwan, are not balanced (huge error on Parasound's part) and have a pretty face. They charge $6k because the contractor who built them (Parasound isn't a "real" company - they don't build anything) has to do a large quantity, so for them to recoup their investement quickly, they have to charge a higher price. The Sims are hand built, using really good parts and an excellent design. Plus they have a 10 year warranty and if you need parts the 15th year they have them. Parasound, you're SOL after 7 years. |
Audio4ever, you might want to check your facts. JC-1s have both balanced and single ended inputs, as can be verified on the Parasound website. It sounds as though you haven't looked 'under the hood' of the JC-1s to see the premium parts throughout, including Harris high speed soft recovery diodes, Nichicon Muse caps, Holco and other premium resistors, etc. The warranty is 10 years parts, 5 years labor, so your remark about being SOL after 7 years doesn't make sense. Yes, they are assembled in Taiwan, which enables them to be sold at the price they are, as if hand built they would likely be at least 2 1/2 times the price. Personal preferences aside, it sure sounds as though you have an ax to grind. |
I also have to disagree with Audio4ever.
I recently listened to the Sim WS-6's in a friends system.
I was initially impressed with the Sim's.
I then brought over my JC-1's and we unhooked the Sim's, and put my JC-1's in their place.
No contest: My JC-1's were more focused, transparent, dynamic, had deeper and better controlled bass, and had better soundstaging.
While the Sim's sounded excellent, they were too recessed for own own tastes, and the bass quality was so so.
My friend also prefered my JC-1's, and was shocked that they indeed sounded better than his Sim WS-6's!
Just my 2 cents. |
Sean - I used to have the same opinion about amps with global negative feedback. This is why I own amps such as the CODA's. I still like them, but I found that it is possible to get the same speed, liquidity, focus and air of these non-feedback amps by doing the right mods to well-designed amps with feedback, namely the JC-1's and the HCA3500. And you get the added bonus of great bass control due to the feedback, which results in extremely low output impedance. |
