Pair of Rel S510’s or Carbon Special’s?

I should say up front, probably all I need is to activate the EQ in Roon and boost the lower frequencies a couple of decibels.. But due to my irrational audiophile sensibilities I can’t even bring myself to try turning it on! Don’t want any app messing with the purity of the source material!

@hilde45 reading the link now, thanks

@hilde45 , interesting subs and delayed phase feature, but to me it sounds like in my case I shouldn’t need a delayed phase feature since the subs will be practically in the same spot as my mains.  Seems to me this would be useful for when your subs are further away from the listener than the mains…

@onhwy61 , you are right, I am a bit worried about positioning.  But I’m hoping the big open room makes the one available position okay.  There are no room corners to consider with my open concept house.  But there is an island on the left and another obstacle on the right that limits the position of the subs to 6” on the outside of each speaker.

Good to know, thanks. Have you heard the Carbon Specials in comparison with your S510’s? Based on their specs I’m sure the Carbon Specials can go deeper and louder, with greater speed, but in my case I only plan to have the subs add very minimal effect. I’m not actually looking for deep full bass you can feel. Just a bit of lower end QUALITY support is all I’m after. But maybe the added speed and detail of the Carbon Specials still matters in my application? Or maybe the difference would not be noticeable?

@ohlala thanks for your perspective.  Regarding the S510’s being too small for my large room and speakers, I think you are right.  But, the fact that I am not feeling the need to fully energize my room with bass, and just wanting to add a bit of slight bass support, that might make the S510’s okay for my application?  And, might make placement easier too, given that I plan to have their output set low?

Very interesting comments on the subject of adjustable phase.  I was thinking that if some speakers have powered subs built in, that is the closest thing to having subs next to the speakers.

Thanks @macg19. My amp does in fact offer RCA connections specifically for subwoofers. However Rel claims that the high level inputs are better because then the subs are in perfect sync with your speakers, as they are getting the same signal…. Also, I’d think the low level RCA run would not be good for a low-level signal vs a high level speaker signal? My perspective is 100% influenced by marketing and things that sales guys have told me for many years in HiFi shops. Sadly I don’t think I can recall any good advice from a well-meaning but misguided sales person.  Many years ago a salesman told me that the high level Rel connection offloads your main speakers thereby improving performance, while automatically adjusting to a seamless crossover point for utterly perfect integration. I always remembered how passionately he was telling me this, which I always thought was BS!

Hi, with respect to advice I get on these boards, I pay attention to individual advice, but I ALWAYS ultimately pay attention to consensus.  I find it is the only reliable approach and it has led me to some very positive results.  For example, I’d never heard of Gryphon before and was failing to find an amp that made my speakers sound better than mediocre.  Then I heard about Gryphon in these boards, and it seemed like almost 100% of people were going on about how great The Diablo 300 was.  Even the “My long list of amplifiers” dude had a spotlight on the Diablo 300 for a while, saying there was nothing, separates or otherwise, that bettered the Diablo for $50k or less.  At that point I made the effort to trial the Diablo and I was stunned at how my speakers came alive, with zero annoyances in the tonal balance as I was finding with every other amp / preamp I was testing.

All that to say, my goal is quality and I am not at all tied to Rel. Going back to consensus, the reason I started with Rel is there seems to be a lot of folks who say they are great.  That said, I’m sensing there may be more people who aren’t so happy with Rel.  In the case of my Diablo 300 amp, I think I’ve found maybe 3 posts tops where people aren’t liking what they hear, amid a sea of praise (which I would happily add to).

@hilde45 , back to the subject of phase, isn’t the goal to have sound from your speakers arrive at your ears at precisely the same time as the sound from your subs? And if the subs are directly beside your speakers (which is similar to the case of speakers that include powered subs), would the timing for sound from your speakers and subs to travel to your ears not be identical? I’m trying to understand the rationale as to why having the drivers of the subs be out of sync with my main speakers might be beneficial - I can understand in the scenario of when your sub is significantly further away from your speaker.

Finally, having your subs directly next to your speakers and being slightly out of phase from your speakers, wouldn’t the significant vibrations from the subs adversely affect the performance of your main speaker drivers, by having a slightly deleterious effect on each other? When people question how powered subs can be embedded in speakers without having a negative impact, I’ve always heard the argument that it’s because the vibrations are perfectly in sync and are therefore working together. Is it possible that having the crossover set too high amplifies the lower frequencies too much causing the boominess, and by having the phase set slightly apart, your speaker drivers and sub drivers are very slightly taming the bass response by slightly cancelling each other out?

I have no experience in this area or with subs in general, so I’m just trying to understand. Or is it one of those audiophile things that don’t make any sense, but it helps? (like for example I recently learned that 2m USB cords are vastly superior to 1m cords, when I tested 0.75m, 1m, and 2m versions of Audioquest Diamond and Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cords - makes NO sense but wow is there ever a difference!).

@macg19 thanks for following up with Rel and asking about this!  Interesting they suggest trying high level and low level too.  That contradicts their own marketing, how to videos and instructions where they basically just use high level unless you can’t for some reason.

@ronboco sadly I was not able to test Rockports as I never had the opportunity to travel to Goodwin’s in Boston to hear Gryphon + Rockport.  That said I’m more than happy with my 802 D2’s I purchased, saving a lot of cash, and by some miracle they truly appear brand new.

@ronboco that explanation makes perfect sense, thanks!

Regarding longer low frequency wavelengths and room size - when I was recently testing many highly regarded and top tier speakers, with my amp, I was failing to find any speakers that clicked for me.  Most sounded too thin in the upper mids to my ear.  At the top of my audition list was the Magico A5’s.  I wanted to love these, as I thought the form factor was great and I thought the three large bass drivers would be well suited to my large room with high ceilings. I had read that these speakers had excellent, almost subwoofer level bass and Stereophile’s review stated that bass was actually over-emphasized, even in their larger test room.  I was prepared to be blown away and buy them on the spot.

But they sounded like crap, and had laughable bass!  And here is where room size comes in.  The sales guy said that the tiny audition room might be too small for the long wavelengths put out by the A5’s.  Also that they only had 250 hours of run time. Also that “you are just not used to a sealed, non-ported speaker design.”  Could be all true, but now I’m wondering if it might have entirely been the small room not allowing the bass to reflect.