imdoc, I'm also a Magnepan user but not with quite as good of a model as you own. I've had a pair of older 2.7qrs for about the last 25 yrs that are rated to go down to 37 hz while your 20Rs are rated as going as low as 25 hz. I've been searching for a good bass system to pair with my Magnepans for over 2 decades. The only sub system I've discovered that has very good bass response down to the lowest audible octaves that is more impactful but just as natural, textured, detailed and articulate as the bass my Magnepans produce down to their limits and blends in seamlessly is a Distributed Bass Array System (DBAS). There are actually 2 DBAS that I'm aware of: 1. The Audio Kinesis SWARM which I believe is the original. It's based on the PHD thesis of an acoustical engineer, Dr.Geddes, on the subject of achieving good and well dispersed bass performance in smaller rooms (as opposed to large venues such as concert halls and auditoriums) and the work of another acoustical engineer, Dr. O'Toole. 2. The Audio Kinesis DEBRA(Distributed EQ Reflex Array) which is basically the same as the SWARM with minor variations in sub construction that is built and sold by James Romeyn Music and Audio in Utah. James is a friend and partner of Audio Kinesis owner, Duke LeJeune, and has a licensing agreement with Audio Kinesis to build and sell his version under the Audio Kinesis brand. About a year ago I purchased the Audio Kinesis DEBRA system.Here's a link describing the system:
http://jamesromeyn.com/old-pages/home-audio-gear/dsa-1-0-distributed-subwoofer-array-5-pieces-4k-usd...
Since it is such an ideal system for me and I think it would work well in your system, I provided a link to the Absolute Sound's 2015 review of the Audio Kinesis SWARM (which awarded it a 'Golden Ear' award for that year) below: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/
.
I can personally attest to the effectiveness of the DEBRA system in my room. I have 6 listening/viewing positions in my combination music and ht system in my living room. Bass response is equally good for music and HT at all 6 positions without the use of acoustic devices (no absorbing or diffusing panels or bass traps) and without any electronic equalization (room analysis/correction equipment, software or eq). I should mention I've never had my system/room analyzed using a mike and software. From my purely subjective perspective, however, I'm confident the results would be good since I spent hours on the setup and critical listening from all six listening positions in my room. I would suggest this type of sub system as a viable alternative for anyone considering investing in one or more quality subs. The system is rated clean at 113 decibels at 20 hz and I've often heard and felt it go this low. It feels and sounds clean and right but I can't verify the decibels or lack of distortion. Hope this helped, Tim |
imdoc,
Forgot to answer one of your questions:
Whether I thought the $3,000 cost of the DEBRA was worth the cost?
Unequivocally, yes. I honestly can't count the number of times I've been listening to music and the music calls for deeper bass (acoustic, percussion or electronic) and the DBA system just powerfully, naturally and seemingly effortlessly reproduces the lowest octaves and blends so seamlessly with the Magnepans reproducing everything else that the result is a sound stage illusion that just sounds like a beautifully synchronized realistic whole; like the actual musicians are playing in my living room or as if I've been transported to the venue, depending on the recording.
Logically I know it's a sound stage illusion but it's uncanny how I perceive the bass, even though it is monaural, as emanating from the proper instruments within this illusionary and 3D sound stage. It's really quite impressive and enjoyable. .
I think paying attention to details and being precise in setting up a DBA is critical to getting good results; things like following the progressive locating procedure for properly positioning each of the 4 subs in the room, using trial and error to set the crossover at the correct hz (I found 40hz worked best in my system), determining the correct relative volume of the DBAS (in relation to your main speakers) by precise setting of the supplied sub amp's rotary volume control knob (mine is set between the 9 and 10 o'clock position) and whether to run your main speakers full range or use a filter to limit their lower frequency duties (Mine run full range without restriction).
Fortunately, this rather elaborate setup process only needs to be done well once. You're able to just enjoy your music with consistently stellar performance until you decide to move or upgrade your main speakers.
Lastly, I wanted to mention that you can also construct your own custom DBA by using 4 subs of your own choosing. However, this is likely to be significantly more expensive than a DEBRA or SWARM complete system with the 'law of diminishing returns' also needing to be considered.
Thanks,
Tim |
randy 11,
You stated:"
I’d bet some DSP testing and room treatments would be much more rewarding, tho maybe an amp that really put out a lot of current into 4 ohms(?? dunno what you have now)"
I think your reply was directed at me but I'm not sure. In case I'm correct, I wanted to respond:
I use a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M class D mono-block amps on my older Magnepan 2.7qr speakers; 1,000 watts into 4 ohms and 24 amp peak output current each. They drive the speakers very well.
I think DSP room analysis/correction would be interesting just to confirm my in-room bass frequency response and bass dispersion is as good as I think it is based on my subjective opinion.
I'm certain my room has no need for bass room treatments such as bass traps or other dampening panels for either the bass system or the Magnepans but would like to experiment with diffusing panels behind and between 2.7qrs.
Thanks,
Tim
|
Hi randy 11,
I try to keep an open mid about system changes and improvements.
But I'm not certain what you mean by your last post comments.
Could you please elaborate and provide more specifics?
Thanks,
Tim |
randy 11,
You stated in a previous post, I believe in response to comments I had made about the attributes of my distributed bass array utilizing 4 subs and that I've never had my room's bass response analyzed via mics and software:
"
you might be surprised about the bass....
whether it is worth changing the look of the room is another issue."
Since I wasn't certain what you meant by the comment "you might be surprised about the bass", I requested you elaborate and be more specific in order to clarify your meaning.
Since you haven't responded in the few days since my request, I wanted to point out that your comment "you might be surprised about the bass" can be interpreted in 2 opposite ways:
1. It could mean that, if I analyzed the bass response produced in my room of my 4 sub DBA (Distributed Bass Array) system utilizing a mic and software, I would be surprised how well the in-room bass response actually measured.
I don't believe this is your meaning, since I would not be surprised in the least to discover that the excellent bass response I consistently perceive in my room is validated by excellent in-room measurement results.
2. It could mean that,
if I analyzed the bass response produced in my room of my 4 sub DBA (Distributed Bass Array) system utilizing a mic and software, I would be surprised how poorly the in-room bass response actually measured.
This is more likely your meaning, since I definitely would be very surprised to learn that the excellent bass response I consistently perceive in my room is not validated by equally excellent in-room measurement results.
If this were the case, I'll admit I would be initially very confused. How could something that I perceive as sounding so good measure so poorly?
I think my initial reaction would be that either the measuring equipment or the measuring method are at fault. Either the equipment is not properly measuring the in-room bass response or the specifics of what is being measured do not correlate to how bass response is actually perceived by our ears and brains.
Even in the highly unlikely possibility that the bass response in my room was measured accurately as poor, however, I'm not sure I would search for an alternative bass system/subs to replace my current DBA.
I say this because our 'perception' of the sound of our systems is our 'reality'.
If the bass system I utilize sounds as extended, as detailed, as seamlessly blended with my main speakers and as close to the real thing as the DBA does, how well or poorly it measures in my room is much less important to me than my perception of how it sounds.
As I've stated, I use absolutely no mics, DSP, room analysis/room correction software, equalizers or room treatments.
I am curious, though, how my system/room's bass response would measure.
I should point out that when Dr. Geddes and Toole performed testing on their DBA theory in numerous rooms of various sizes and shapes, however, the bass response measurements of the rooms deploying a DBA system were consistently very good. I have no reason to think my room using the DEBRA 4 sub DBA system would not measure the bass response at least as equally 'very good', if not even better.
And finally, I'm also not certain what you meant when you stated:"
whether it is worth changing the look of the room is another issue."
Why and how would I change anything?
I still hope you respond and clarify your comments.
Thank you,
Tim
|
randy 11,
You haven't even explained your comments from your previous post and you're just going to make more cryptic comments?
I'm not sure why you're avoiding coherent comments in your posts.
Are you just a poor written communicator?
Are your comments deliberately incoherent and confusing?
Do you care that your comments are completely ineffective and of no value to those they're directed toward because they're so incoherent and confusing?
Are you capable of explaining, elaborating on or just plainly and directly clarifying your comments?
Am I the only one having difficulty making sense of your comments?
Are you just messing with me by being so cryptic?
I'm honestly uncertain if any, all or some combination of the above explanations apply. But since your comments are of so little value to me, I suggest you might want to make them understandable or just avoid responding.
Thanks,
Tim
|
randy 11,
I forgot to respond to your only comment I understood thus far:
"
you may well have standing waves as most rooms do, so need to test"
You are correct, most rooms do have bass standing waves
However, the whole point of a properly setup DBA is to eliminate the vast majority of bass standing waves in the room it is deployed in.
The DBA's main benefit and reason for being is its extraordinary ability to eliminate the vast majority of bass standing waves in any room.
This is why DBAs are such an excellent solution for providing top quality bass response in any system no matter one's room size or shape.and without the need for mics, room analyzing and correcting software, equalization, DSP equipment or room treatments.
The result is powerful, life-like, detailed, seamlessly integrated with the main speakers and seemingly effortless bass that is well dispersed throughout the entire room; not just at a designated sweet spot.
In my opinion, and I would think in the opinion of many, this describes the type of in-room bass response we are all in search of.
Do I have any bass standing waves in my room since installing my Audio Kinesis DEBRA DBA system? Maybe but so what?.
The sole instruments I have available to detect them are my ears and attached brain. I have spent what I consider a large amount of time walking and even crouching around my entire living room searching for the symptoms of bass standing waves: any spots at which bass sounds over/under emphasized and spots at which bass sounds nonexistent.
I'm as certain as I can be, lacking the necessary equipment for a complete room analysis, that there are no bass standing waves at any of my 6 seating positions in my room. Perhaps there's 1 or a few in my room but I'm not going to worry about it or them since they obviously have virtually no affect I can even remotely detect on bass performance in my entire room.
Thanks,
Tim
|
Duke,
Thanks for your very thorough explanation of how the Swarm and Debra DBAs were designed to work.
I can personally attest to how the Debra DBA actually does produce extraordinarily bass results in my 23ft x 16ft living room for both music (often hi-rez 24bit/96khz WAV files as well as ripped copies of redbook CDs) and as part of a 5.1 surround system for HT. I assume the almost identical Swarm would perform equally well in my system and room.
The way this DBA system so seamlessly integrates with my older Magnepan 2.7QR main speakers is truly exceptional. I believe either the Debra or Swarm DBA would likely be a very good solution for extending and improving bass response and impact in any room and likely integrate very well with any brand or type of main speakers. But I agree the very fast and articulate bass produced by these DBAs are especially good for mating with Magnepans and any electrostatics. I also like the way they can effortlessly reproduce deep and powerful bass when the content calls for it.
I'd definitely suggest the OP, imdoc, would be well served by auditioning either the Debra or Swarm DBA with his very nice Magnepan 20s in his room before purchasing any other bass solution.
Thanks,
Tim |
Hi Duke,
Very interesting and very important for the OP, imdoc.
I agree he may be better served with a custom distributed bass array but that he should use subs with even larger drivers for more bass quantity. The chosen subs should be ’voiced’ flat, not -3db down below 80 hz like the Debra and Swarm subs are to compensate for room gain in typical rooms. The main points being the use of larger and voiced flat subs would better suit imdoc’s desire for more deep bass response.
I know the Debra/Swarm DBA system is a great solution for mating seamlessly with Maggies and it does have good deep bass impact in my room and system; bass I do feel in my chest on some music and HT content. However, I’m more concerned with the quality of the bass than just the quantity. But I understand this doesn’t mean the Swarm/Debra’s bass will be sufficiently deep to satisfy imdoc.
Finding a good bass system solution for imdoc, one that integrates well with his large Maggies and also is capable of producing exceptionally deep bass on a consistent basis, may be possible but it would likely be extremely expensive.
Imdoc seems to be looking for a hi-end bass system at a bargain price. I think we’re all aware he’s not going to attain this with his pair of Janis subs no matter how hard he tries.
Before we can give any further meaningful advice, I think it’s important to have a description of his room and his budget.
Currently, my thought is he has 3 main choices in the form of good/better/best and depending on his room and budget:
Good= Obtain 1, or perhaps 2, additional Janis subs and experiment with placement for best performance. This is likely the least expensive option, although I’m not sure of the which Janis model sub he currently has, its cost or whether he has the room for 1-2 more subs.
Better= Purchase a Swarm or Debra complete DBA system for about $3,000. Very likely to blend well with his speakers but unsure if it will provide enough deep bass impact to satisfy.
Best= Create a custom DBA system using 4 subs that utilize 15" drivers and are ’voiced’ as flat. Definitely the most expensive option (likely at least $6,000 but actual cost dependent on subs preferred). Most difficult aspect will probably be finding subs that blend well with his large Magnepans but having the room for 4 larger subs is also a concern.
Thanks,
Tim |
randy 11, You asked: " can you explain option 2 betterZ?" Not sure, but I think you're looking for a link to the Audio Kinesis Debra system. I would not use "DBA" on google searches. This is just an acronym I created for "Distributed Bass Array" that I don't believe is in wide use by others.
Google
"Distributed Bass Array" and you'll get more relevant info like Dr. Geddes's research and James Romeyn's Debra system that I own. Here's the link for the Debra: http://jamesromeyn.com/old-pages/home-audio-gear/dsa-1-0-distributed-subwoofer-array-5-pieces-4k-usd... |
|
Strange, we haven't heard from the OP, imdoc, since he posted this thread.
I was hoping he could describe his room and give his budget.
|
Hi imdoc,
Welcome back to your thread.
Great to hear you had a good discussion withe Duke. I know he and James Romeyn can be relied upon to give very good and unbiased audio advise.
In a previous post, Duke was confident that the Swarm/Debra would integrate well with your large Magnepans and your room but was concerned whether it would deliver the quantity of bass in your room that you seem to desire.
Given your more powerful bass system preference, he thought you may require a distributed bass array that employed larger subs that would deliver even greater quantities of bass in your system.
For current and future readers of this thread and to satisfy my curiosity, can you tell us the competitor's product Duke recommended?
Thanks,
Tim
|
imdoc,
Nice room! It looks like an upscale chinese restaurant, very cool.
Duke,
Thanks for describing your thought process considering a suitable bass solution for imdoc's somewhat unusual room.
I understand your reasoning for suggesting a powerful pair of subs instead of a 3-4 sub array. Hopefully, imdoc can find a pair that blends well with his Maggies and can position them well enough to reduce standing waves and give good bass response at all the dining positions.
Later,
Tim |
