Thanks for your comments. I believe the turntable started as series 3, but not 100% sure as I bought it used. It has the dual solid pieces fused together for the basic platform, with the rectangular cutout. I upgraded to the ball suspension pods. It sits on a TNT stand filled with sand. I don't have a lot of money to spend at this time, so I think a different table is out of the question at this point.
Tobes, how big a difference did the single motor flywheel make? I understand they are phasing it out, so if I'm going to buy one, I need to get it now. Also, I thought about the motor sitting directly on the stand being a source of vibration, as it is not isolated like the table. I don't know of any solution to this, as any feet that I'm aware of would put it too high.
Manitunc, I had thought of the innertube solution for other components, but I'm skeptical that it will make a big difference since the table is already on the air-filled ball suspension pods. Although, I worked in an electrophysiology lab where we use air tables, so I know what a difference they make in vibration control, as we worked with microelectrodes under a microscope.
Tobes, I wasn't aware of the Symposium 'rollerblock' isolators, but they might be worth investigating further. Not sure how expensive they are.
Regarding other tables, the comparison I am making is to a HW-19 with Wheaton Triplanar and Benz Micro Glider, which should in theory have worse performance than my setup. So, I'm not sure why I getting inferior performance. I'm still wondering if it has something to do with the table being behind the speaker (about 2 1/2 feet). I'm also thinking some sort of acoustic absorber between the two might help. |
Ptmconsulting, thanks also for your reply. We must have posted nearly simultaneously. I will be investigating these fixes over the next few days/week, but I have one initial question. What do you mean by minimal damping? Did you remove the damping trough? |
Dougdeacon, thanks for the advice on VTF. You forced me to re-check it...and to my surprise, the rubber o-rings I had used to fine-tune the VTF had rotted and failed! Furthermore, I had always been told to use near the max tracking force tolerated. So in sum, I was way off. I also recently read to use the largest counterweight pushed all the way forward, and the next largest possible pushed as far forward as possible. I realized I was using the next size down, so I switched and re-adjusted. I'm not sure I have tweaked it maximally yet, but there's already a dramatic improvement! Thanks again. Now on to the other tweaks... |
Thanks for all the tips everyone. Unfortunately, something's now wrong with my pre-amp or amp and probably going to have to send one to the shop. I'll get back to you when things are up and running again. |
Ptmconsulting, you said for cartridge loading: I load mine at 220 or 470,depending... higher values produce a more open tonality but sometimes this can be a bit too sharp with some recordings so I tone down to 220 for those. I thought you were supposed to try to match the impedences for loading. Temper's impedence is listed as 7 ohms, and my Spectral preamp allows for 10, 30, 100... I have tried others, but thought 30 was a good compromise, as 10 dropped the output significantly but sounded more open and airy. 30 dropped the output much less, and higher than that seemed to be a little brighter and less airy. Maybe I was thinking about that wrong and I was actually damping the cartridge too much. I will try going up again (once I get my preamp back), but what is your (and others) opinion on this? Also, do you think a separate phono preamp is warrented? The Spectral has a separate dedicated card as an addition for this. |
Since the preamp only seems to be acting up when it gets hot, and Spectral is going on holiday until the beginning of the year, I decided to go ahead and try a couple of things. I changed the cartridge load to 100 Ohms, which opened up the sound and increased the gain, as well as improving transients and details. I didn't go up higher, as the next step is 800 Ohms, which seems to high given previous comments.
Next, I replaced the stock rubber belt with silk thread. This really reduced the noise floor and provided even more details. I'm not sure of the optimal distance or tension to have on the thread, so input would be appreciated.
After these two changes, the sound still lacked a little in the dynamics, so I backed off slightly in the VTF. This provided significant improvement. I have ordered an Audio Additives digital stylus force guage to better estimate this force, but I plan to fine tune it by ear.
Finally, with all these changes, small changes make bigger differences, so I'm going to have to fine tune VTA, azimuth, and reassess whether or not to use anti-skate or remove the whole thing along with the damping trough.
With regard to longer cables and hence getting the table away from the speakers, the problem is not whether the Spectral will handle it (it has the possibility of using balanced cables as well), but the expense of reference MIT cables, which Spectral requires due to its ultra-wide bandwidth. I am also still considering altering the suspension, but I need to do these things step-by-step. |
Just to make sure I'm in the right ballpark on VTA, I started with the base of the Temper cartridge approximately parallel to the record and adjusted up and down with the Triplanar by ear from there, until the high frequencies locked in and then the lows. The difference I get between a standard LP and a 200 g LP is about half a turn on the dial (i.e. 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock). Does that sound about right? |
It's hard to remember, and unfortunately (or fortunately for me financially) I traded it in, so I can't do a direct comparison. But, the biggest differences I note are: it's not as laid back as the temper and maybe not quite as silky smooth, but at least as detailed, a little fuller-sounding, transients are much better, and it's more solid and coherent. Everything sounds 'right', not overbearing or any one thing standing out, but I think fitting well with my system. I think the Phoenix is more accurate and more revealing of both good and bad recordings. Overall, it's a better cartridge than the Temper I traded in, but keep in mind it was a very old Temper Supreme. |
More progress. I removed the damping trough, and that things cleaned up more. Instruments sound more natural, voices are clear and more distinct. I also received the Audio Additives Stylus Force Gauge. I was in the 1.9 range initially. I backed off to about 1.75, which improved the dynamics but was a little light in the bass and tonal textures. So, I went up to about 1.835, and things really locked in. I also reset the azimuth and VTF (the latter which I change with each record). I'm finding that I really like the silk thread as well over the rubber belt. Everything's just smoother and more detailed. Overall, things are finally very listenable and approaching the level which I expect from this table, arm, cartridge combination. The main thing I'm thinking of now is that I still have to decide whether to stick with this motor and get some sort of isolation for it or change to the single motor flywheel. I'm not convinced that having an additional belt even with the heavier flywheel is an optimal solution. As I'm writing this, I'm listening to Leonard Cohen's "Songs from the Road" and the voices (particularly his) and instruments sound so rich, natural, and detailed that I am very pleased with the setup right now. Thanks everyone for your help, and enjoy the holidays as I do with wonderful music! |
Dgarretson said: In my set-up 3x brass Audiopoints under the motor was an improvement over the rubber feet. Which Audiopoints do you use? Do they screw into the bottom of the motor in place of the rubber feet? |
Dgarretson said: BTW if you plan on living with the TNT for awhile, acquiring a standalone flywheel is worthwhile. The flywheel provides three improvements: increased inertial mass, a noise break for AC motor cogging effects transmitted through the drive-train, and better traction for the thread around a wider circumference of the motor pulley. So, you're recommending a standalone flywheel rather than the single motor flywheel? I know VPI used to make one, but I don't think they do anymore. Does anyone else? I looked on this site and didn't see any for sale. Do you recommend the stand-alone flywheel over the single motor flywheel design? If I remember right, the flywheel is about the same size as the original motor, so it probably gives more inertial mass than the all-in-one system. The problem I foresee is that my table is just big enough to hold the table and single motor or maybe single motor-flywheel combination. I seem to remember an extension or something to hold the separate motor, but that doesn't seem ideal for stability. Do you have any recommendations in that regard? I suppose I could put a larger and heavier base on top of or instead of my current base. |
I screwed it up again! I still had the anti-skate slightly on (no weight but the fishing line still connected to the lever) which was evidently providing some effect since when I removed it completely the tracking on inner tracks was lost. I've tried re-adjusting the cartridge to no avail. Can anyone help diagnose the problem, as I'd prefer not to use the anti-skate but this is obviously not working? |
Another complication. Putting the anti-skate back on didn't solve the problem, so I contacted Tri Mai at Triplanar who was very helpful. I had this problem years ago, but thought it was solved. Apparently, when I removed the arm to remove the damping trough, the wires running from the bottom tube on the tonearm were pulled slightly tight, putting tension on the arm and causing pulling and vibration, especially when the arm neared the center of the record. Tri suggested pulling the wires slightly loose thereby relieving the tension and allowing the wires to float as free as possible. My first attempt caused things to be much worse, and subsequent attempts improved things but were not perfect, and the wires seem to quickly slip. I had an upgrade somewhere between 5 and 10 years back, but apparently this was not fixed with that upgrade. Before spending another nearly $1500 for another upgrade, I wanted to find if anyone had dealt with this before successfully and how. Also, does the most recent upgrade completely solve this, and if so, how? I initially thought much of my problems were in the cartridge, but this made me realize that it may be more the tonearm, as slight changes make HUGE differences. |
Once you've locked the shield end of the cable down, dress the free wires between the shield and the hole in the armtube so that the arm swings to the spindle and back with no drag or tautness and without the wires snagging. What do you mean by dress the free wires? |
I think Ive worked out the main problems with the cartridge-arm-table. The rubber covering between the cable and the tonearm had come loose at the junction with the cable sleeve, and every time I pushed it in, the tension on the wires going into the tonearm became too much and it put tension on the arm itself. Once I was able to determine this and fix it, it became evident that the cartridge still wasnt tracking. So, I bit the bullet and traded in my cartridge for the Transfiguration Phoenix. I just installed the cartridge, and the tracking problems are resolved. I still feel that I have some minor adjustments to make, but for the most part, things really cleaned up, focused, and I dont hear any of the obvious tracking problems. Of note, the new cartridge output is 0.4 mV (vs. 0.2 mV of the TS).
I cant say yet that I am totally thrilled with the cartridge yet, though. While the big problems essentially vanished, I feel that a slight amount of openness and detail that I previously appreciated in the Temper Supreme is missing. I suspect some of this is that the cartridge needs to be broken in. Also, as I said I probably need to fine-tune things. But, it may also not be quite up to par with the original Temper Supreme. Although the price point is similar to the TS, I think the more expensive Orpheus may have been more the replacement for the TS (I just cant afford it right now). The problem I was having with the rapid transient attacks seems significantly improved with the new cartridge, but there just arent as many layers of detail as I might like. Does this sound like a break-in issue that will likely improve over time? Or, need for adjustments? Or, do you think the cartridge is just not going to give the ultimate performance? How long does it take to break in a cartridge? |
I just tried putting a slight amount of anti-skate on, and to my surprise this made a big difference. Some of the clarity, smoothness, and details that I felt I had lost in switching from the Transfiguration Temper Supreme to the Phoenix suddenly returned. Voice and instrument timbers became more realistic. Even more surprising to me, the soundstage expanded significantly. Even before this occurred, I felt the pace and rhythmicity was more accurate with the Phoenix than with the Temper Supreme, and the cartridge just seems more stable. It's still early to say, but I may end up liking this cartridge more than I initially thought. |
At this point, I don't have an easy way to swap the cartridges back and forth, but I am extremely familiar with the Temper Supreme sound and am getting a feel for the Phoenix. If I get up enough interest/desire to switch back to the TS, I'll let you know, as this would certainly be a good comparison.
Just a couple of initial thoughts now that Ive been listening to this cartridge for a while. On the positive, its a very listenable cartridge, very smooth and liquid with good attack on transients. On the negative side, it doesn't seem quite as detailed as the Temper Supreme. For example, with the Phoenix, it seems that the main line of the song or singers voice becomes a little bigger than life or at least bigger than the background. I dont know what kind of music you listen to, but an album Im very familiar with is REM Out of Time. For example, on Shiny Happy People, Kate Piersons harmony is kind of lost behind Michael Stipes lead with the Phoenix. With the TS, she was right there beside Michael. Shes more in the background with the Phoenix. On the other hand, in a way the Phoenix seems a little more integrated and rhythmic. Also, I'm sure the Phoenix isn't broken in yet, as it does seem to be improving as I continue to listen. I will let you know more as I learn more. My initial suspicion is that there are pros and cons/tradeoffs of both, and moreover that the Orpheus probably has the strengths of both and less of their weaknesses. I should say also that my Transfiguration Supreme is certainly 'long in the tooth', more like 15 years old, re-tipped once and re-built once, so the comparison isn't totally fair. I'm now certain that this is the reason for the problems I was having with the whole setup before. |
I just changed the cartridge loading from 100 to 300 ohms, and my previous complaints about the details lacking, over-emphasis of the primary vocals, etc. seem to have disappeared. I guess I was over-damping the Phoenix with the same load that worked fine for the Temper Supreme. This is only the first recording I've tested, 'Eric Clapton Unplugged', but if it's any indication, this is going to be a fine cartridge. |
Correction: 'I just changed the cartridge loading from 100 to 800 ohms...' (not 300 ohms). After listening several hours, the improvement persists. With the exception of my preamp still giving me problems intermittently, I can say that I have very little to complain about now, and I can just sit back and enjoy the music! Regarding the cartridge, it's very neutral, rhythmic, engaging, solid, and really just gets out of the way of the music. It's neutrality and openness are very similar to the Temper Supreme, but the solidity, rhythmicity, and presence all surpass the qualities of my (old) TS. Also, the soundstage is more consistently impressive and especially deeper than the TS. It still may not have the attack or flashiness that some cartridges do, but the transients are fast, detailed, and accurate and in no way lacking. I just don't think it adds punch to the playback, and this is a good thing. I'm sure the cartridge isn't completely broken in yet, as it still seems to be getting better and better and more open the longer I play it. |
Update: So far very satisfied with TNT, Triplanar, Transfiguration Phoenix. The Phoenix has opened up a lot with break in. I don't have the complaints I had before of lack of transient response, and things overall seem more stable. I also moved the turntable to the other (right) side of the amp (though still behind the other speaker). I was very careful in setup, and it seems more stable. I am thoroughly enjoying music again! |
