2. analog
  3. 141608-4121

OPINIONS PLEASE - Phonostage for new Rega P8/Apheta 2 - Sutherland 20/20 or Allnic 1201

OPINIONS PLEASE - Phonostage for new Rega P8/Apheta 2 - Down to Sutherland 20/20 or Allnic 1201 phonostages. Can anyone tell me anything about either? Would consider other in this price new/used but these seem pretty good.

I have got down to these two mainly for price (under $2k) and where my simple research has led. 

I am big into Digital and want to play around with some decent vinyl.

Nothing crazy but good enough that my Bricasti MISE w/Built in Ethernet Media Player doesn't blow it away so I am trying to put together a decent enough vinyl front end that will sound good enough that I want to use it. 


___________________________________________________________________________________________

Background:

I recently ordered new speakers that should be in a few weeks. Time for me to set up my vinyl front end to prepare for them. I am trading my Magico S5 for S5 MK II. 

____________

Room is 12 x 23 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 15 Foot a peak - Set on long wall

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35630112@N05/46190013771/in/dateposted-public/


Music: Assorted Music no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else.

Likes: Transparency- Delicate-linear-Dynamic-Fast - high resolution-microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless - I know there is a fine Line here but I'm looking to walk it and come out on the right side - but real see through into the music with some sheen and dabs of warmth - transparent to the source because I love my DAC - image and sound stage lover - tight bass - hate flab - like speed and transparency as my selection choices might speak to

____________

From Audiogon Virtual System page:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160


Associated Equipment:

> Digital:
- DAC: Bricasti Design M1 Special Edition DAC 
- Digital Transport: Bricasti M12 Built-In Ethernet Network Player

> Analogue:
- Turntable: Rega Planer 8
- Tonearm: Rega RB880 Tonearm
- Cartridge: Rega Alpheta 2 MC

> Preamplification:
- Linestage: Simaudio Moon Evolution P-8 Reference Preamplifer 
- Phonostage:TBD

> Amplification:
- Power Amplifier: Pass Labs X250.8 Stereo Amplifier

> Loudspeakers:
- Transducers: Magico S5 MKII Reference Loudspeakers MCast Pewter, (Trading S5 MK I)

> Power Supplies:
- Linear Power Supplies: Uptone Audio JS-2 (2-Rail) Linear Power Supply, The Linear Solution LPS-912 Network Switch Proprietary Linear Power Supply, Breeze Audio 12v Linear Power Supplies (2-units),
- Switching Mode Power Supplies: iFi Audio iPower 9V DC
- Turntable Power Supply: Rega Neo PSU 

> AC Power:
- Conditioning: PS Audio Noise Harvesters (6) 
- Outlets: Furutech GTX (R), Oyaide R1 Beryllium (2),
- Surge / Spike Protection: Blue Circle Audio The Yalu Balula
- Power Strip: PS Audio Juice Bar MK II

> Audio Network Server / Hardware / Software:  
- Servers: Small Green Computer SonicTransporter,
- Storage: WD My Cloud 12v 2TB NAS, 
- PC: Qotom 190S Dual-Port - Baytrail J1900 12v Micro-PC
- Network Switch: The Linear Solution OCXO Audiophile Switch,
- Audio Software: Sonic Orbiter,  ROON 1.4

> Cables:
- Interconnect Cables: Kubala-Sosna Research Emotion XLR 2.0M, Kubala-Sosna Research Emotion XLR 1.5M, Darwin Ascension RCA 0.5M, 
- Speaker Cables: Kubala-Sosna Research Emotion 2.5M Spades,
- AC Cables : Kubala-Sosna Emotion AC 2.0M (2) Kubala-Sosna Elation AC 1.5M, Zu Event MK I AC 1.5M (3)  
- DC Cables: Gent Audio Custom DC Cables (Canare/Oyaide) (6), Upton Audio DC Cable 1M 
- USB: Audiocadabra Ultimus3 Double-Head Silver USB Cable, Curious Regen link, Uptone Audio USPCB A/B USB 
- Digital: Black Cat Silverstar 75 BNC/RCA 1.0M, MIT Terminator-3 RCA 1.0M, DH Labs Silver Sonic D-75 RCA 1.0M (2), Tara Labs Prism 100dx-1 Tosilink 1M.
- HDMI: AudioQuest Chocolate 1.0M, AudioQuest Forest 3.0M,
- Ethernet: AudioQuest Vodka RJ/E 1.0M, Cardas Clear RJ/E 0.5M, The Linear Solution Custom RJ/E 1.5M.

> Sundries / Accessories:
- Audio Racks: Solid Tech Hybrid 3+3 Shelves Audio Rack w/White Shelves and Silver Pillars, Solid Tech Rack of Silence Amplifier Stand
- Isolation Devices: SRA Ohio Class Isolation Platform, Symposium Acoustics Svelte Plus Isolation Platform, Isoacoustic Iso-pucks (8), Red Dragon Audio Ceramic Cable Elevators (4), EdenSound Brass Vibration Weights (8), Bright Star IsoNode Footers,
- Re-clock/Tester: DROK USB Multi-meter/Tester, Wyred 4 Sound Remedy Femto.

- Fsmithjack








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Showing 21 responses by fsmithjack

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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
lol. yeah I just copy and past from my Virtual system.

I keep track of all my dizzying changes over there as I go and just update each cable, power supply or tweak as I go. It’s cool to look back and see how much things change. A agon buddy of mine taught me that. Heck I have forgot so many of the changes but for that..

No Herron phono’s out there used and I like Rogue gear, owned the 180’s years ago but not big fan of their pre’s. I am told both and read both of pre’s are much better than the Chinook or SE. I like Manly gear also. I owned the 40’s, Snappers and a couple Shrimpies. One with remote and one without.

I hear the Chinook is a little chill, not into Chill.laidback anymore. I am fine with tubes but its got to be as transparent as I can get. Allnic is pretty clear for tubes. I was kicking around Whest, Ear, JC3 but thinking the Sutherland 20/20 and Allnic 1201 for under $2k is pretty strong. I love the Sutherland because don’t need to spend a $800 on a power cable which doesn’t hurt at all. All my IC’s are XLR so will need a set RCA’s and even if I go cheap those are $600 - $700 so kind of trying to finish this up for as reasonable money as I can. There is Plinus Koru that had balanced out save me some doe on IC’s but don’t know enough about it. Well reviewed though...

I can’t decide what one to get Sutherland 20/20 and Allnic 1201

I should have know this thread is to specialized for 2 not super popular items so thanks for the reply.


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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
Yes that has been part of my thinking.

I was kicking around the Whest PS.30RDT Special Edition for that very reason as it has discrete bipolar transistor stage but it is $750 more than I want to spend and I care more about sound. Today opamps are so good in many cases can sound great but I agree would prefer a discrete setup.
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712 posts
 
Lac - 
Great to hear from an owner. 

rsf507 -
I have not heard of the Gold Note? Think it might better then these two? I’ll read about it - Thanks 
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waltersalas
thanks - the 1201 has the uplift gain trannys but they say they are good ones used in the more expensive ones. I prefer a discrete gain but for me sound is the most important. 

i love the Sutherland because there is no need for expensive power cable or power conditioner as I plug rest of my rig into that wall. 

Ive had a bunch of conditioners over the years and some really good ones and when I plug straight to the wall there is that little metallic hash I would love to get rid of but overall I much prefer to plug into the wall as the conditioners just take too much away. 

The Sutherland makes it not needed but in the end if the 1201 sounds better then that’s what I want.
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Here they are. Loved these little buggers.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6814#&gid=1&pid=6


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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
I think that Lux phono is more then $2k used?

Trust me I like the Manley gear.

I’ve owned a half dozen of their components. The SE I think is around $3K today. Trying to stay around $2k but if there was a used one for $2k id sure consider it.

 I think the Manley 40 mono blocks that were the precursor to the Mahi monos was my first really great impression of tubes. 

I had Martin Logan Spires, Ayre QX9 DAC, CAT SL1 MKIII preamp and added them 40’s from a Prima Luna Dialogue Intergrated. Loved it so much I jumped up to the Snappers but the EL34’s don’t have the incredibly transparent sound of the EL84’s. I picked up NOS Tele’s and loved those little monos. Not really enough amp for the Spires but they were great. I found the Shrimpy Pre to be just average and I guess that was sort of my worry about their phono. If it is like their Shimpy don’t think I’d like it much. People say more like the Steelhead though which is would be cool. 

Still not sure what phono but need to chose soon I think. Table will be in this week and speakers not much later. I guts to get off the dime! 
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Yeti42

Thanks - I actually had a chance to buy the Aria for $650 which I thought was a great deal but everyone told me is was just ok and the Manley, Allnic, Sutherland blew its doors off. 

Im looking for best sound I can get for about $2000

So fat breaks out like this:

Allnic - $1750
20/20 - $1,900 
Manley SE - $2,200 - maybe 
Herron - $3,500ish 



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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
This is great info. The type I was hoping to get. 

Thank you so much! Keep it coming please! 

So there are no Herron out there for sale. Sure that product keeps coming up everywhere but if there are none out then it’s a bummer.

i would call Kevin deal but he knows me. I’ve made a bunch of tube purchases from them. I will ask him for a good price though.

Most everyone says the Allnic 1201 is better then the Chinook SE.

Do we all agree on this? 

It sounds like the Herron is the best and then the Allnic then Sutherland then Chinook? 

What do you guys think? 


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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
agrippa thanks for the feedback.

What do you guys think about this new offer I just had offered to me?

Simaudio Moon 310LP for $1,500.00

This is much more involved as to why I am considering this one. 

Now normally I wouldn't have considered this pre but because it is made to use a Simaudio external power supply and I have the Simaudio Moon Evolution P-8 that comes with an outstanding separate  external power supply, the 820s which is an $8,000 power supply that I already own as it comes with my Simaudio Moon Evolution P-8.

Because I already own this it also means I would not need to buy another $2,500 Kubala-Sosna Emotion AC Power Cable either. So I can leverage $10k worth of already owned equipment toward this phono set.

That said I want the best sound and don't know if this will offer that but what do you think. I would buy from a Simaudio dealer with warranty as a demo for $1,500?

I mean who cares about the stuff I already own if it doesn't sound better but thinking this might be a good idea?

My brain says yes but my gut says no? What do you guys think?

Want to choose soon? Could use help because not sure. Thank you so much! 


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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
Any idea where maybe a demo Herron is sold?
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712 posts
 
No but I will check them now. Thanks 
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Thanks guys - I reached out the Keith the proprietor of Herron.

Very nice person.  He doesn't even have any in stock. He sells them as quick as he makes them.

He told me he is getting in a used VTPH-1MC he could work something out with me in the next couple weeks but wants to get it in and check it out and stuff like that. I thanked him and was going to email him a week or two. 

Then later in the day another unique opportunity presented itself which has ended my search.

A Sutherland Duo in my price range from an Authorized dealer with full warranty.It's a demo and I have heard the Duo at Fidelis in NH on a Palmer table and it was amazing. 

What do you guys think? It usually cost a lot more but he is giving me a really good price on it.

Stereophile named it joint analogue product of the year for 2017. I know that only means so much but the cool thing is I actually have heard this one. Not in my system of course but I am pretty excited out it.

Bad new? I need 2 more power cables :( 

He is offering me a really good deal in a pair of Audience AU24SE Power Cables which I would not have looked for as my entire system is Kubala-Sosna Emotion but I can not come close to a Kubala price wise and I have heard these are pretty competent power cables so might take him up on that offer. Its a good one.

More bad news? I need a pair of RCA IC's. Mine are all Kubala Emotion XLR Cables.

No idea what to get other than trying to find another Emotion RCA cable but there are none out there used and these are a ton new?

He offered me a great deal on Audioquest Fire RCA 1M. Man these are expensive. It what he used and says it sounds amazing and is a quit and perfect match?

Any thoughts? Thanks guys

At least I have found my phono. I hope it sounds great. No just need to tether via some proper cables... ouch. 


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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 

edwyun
Thanks - yes it has a couple op amps but I am more worried about the best sound per buck. I would prefer discrete but fear this level of performance with all discrete will cost much more.

It is my first "Real Concerted" foray into vinyl so learning as I go.

I know my Bricasti / Simaudio / Pass / Kubala / Magico combo sounds amazing so I was hoping to get a Table/Cart/Phono/IC/AC cable set up to be compelling enough to get up and load another record vs  just flipping the input on the remote and grabbing the Iphone/Roon to my way to another to another track instead.

 
hifiman5
How are those AQ Colorado? Are they real good? Thats a great price if the performance is strong enough that would be amazing. 

 .


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liamowen
Thanks for the info. It's funny as one Pass Labs XP-15 showed up for sale on Audiogon last night. I was thinking long and hard about this one! Love the build quality and simple and clean industrial design. It works for me that is for sure...


I don't just like Pass Labs. I LOVE them! I have owned probably close to a dozen of their products over the years. I have got to speak and write with Nelson over the years on n many occasions and honestly I don't think there is a nicer and/or more knowledgeable person on the planet.

He is such a kind person that shares his time with anyone, any time.

I remember I needed XLR jumpers for my X350.5 amp and he mailed them to me himself and of course no charge. His handwriting with a just a regular stamp. It's not the money but he is busy like most of us. You know he get's and envelope, stamp and drops off and Its the time and consideration. Some may say bid deal. To me the little things matter.

I use to love and own Rethm Saadhana V3 Speakers which are 103db efficient and his First Watt amps sounded better than anything, anywhere and I had some seriously expensive, 5 digit DHT 2A3, 300B amps and one of his FW $1500 used amps blew their doors off.

I could on and on about Nelson. Wayne Colburn I think does most of his pre's and his pre's are great and IMO some of the best in each price range. That said just not quite up the standards set by the amps IMO. The like Pass amps better and they can go to toe to toe in their price range with anything anywhere.

Sure his $10,000 amp is not going to outperform another companies $30,000 amp but put his $10k amp vs other $10k amp and his $30k amps  vs other $30k  amps and I will go with Nelson any day.

That said I bet that XP-15 sound mighty fine in my rig :)


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fossda
Thanks so much for the kind comments. My table is a little different as it is the P8. I am not sure if it sounds any better than the RP8 but I like the cool to me looks of the new model :)

Actually, my goal of buying was to choose a good quality table that is the simplest to set up and the closest to plug and play while hopefully still being good enough. Also, a cart made to go with the table and already mounted and set up and ready to go to keep me from messing it up..

My other foray into vinyl went no where. I bought what I found hard to set up and fine tune set up (for me at least and never got it to sound good). Never heard any of that magic everyone writes about. My Bricasti was so much better and I just dumped the vinyl system.

I had:

Analogue: Turntable: VPI Aries Limited Edition 3D,
Tonearm: 10.5 Inch Printed 3D Arm,
Cartridge: Denon DL-S1,
Step Up Transformer: Bob’s Device Cinemag 1131, 
Phonostage: Mark Levinson No.326s Preamplifer with Phono,

This is some decent gear but never could get it set up right. Had a vinyl guru come over and work on it for hours. So frustrated I thought I would try again with a much simpler system that hopefully sounds nice.

I don't know if my new set up will be better than my digital but my hope is that it is good enough to make me want to listen.

Honestly, I think something was definitely wrong with my last try at vinyl. 

The last time on a scale of 1 through 10 it went like this.

My Bricasti Digital System 8/10

Analogue 2/10

My digital system is good but not that good. I have heard really good vinyl at dealers and thought my system sounds nothing like that.

I heard a Rega RP6 with Exact 2 at a dealer that was a 1,000 time better than my set up above. I said then ok let me try some decent Rega gear that is made so someone like me can't mess it up.

Heck, if my system sounded like that RP6/Exact 2 then I would be psyched and why not? I bought better gear so this time i hope I can get some decent sound. I am really looking forward to it. 





 
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Oh yes I agree. It was an $8,000ish table / arm and a $11,500 pre/phono set up and it sounded like a alarm clock radio of sorts.

Not that bad I'm kidding but nothing even close to my digital. 

The analogue guru was amazed when he heard my digital. Said is was the best he ever heard with any source but he is more of an old school vintage audio system kind of guy.

Awesome guy that spent hours trying to help me out. Would not take a dollar at end of night as I assumed he would all along which stunk because I could not ask him to come back after I bought another cart so now I was back to square one.  

I would only invite him to hang and listen but not work on my system because I felt bad and that would be wrong.

Such a nice guy that I didn't even know and only met he read one of my posts and offered to come over to help as he was local to me. He was really cool and knowledgeable so at lease we had fun listening to music. 

He told me his 20 year vintage table sounded 1000 times better and something was wrong with the set up. He was thinking cart/phono match maybe.

I then bough the step up after thinking it might help but the 326s is a decent unit and known more for the pre but it has mc ability and still nothing.

I was going to buy another cart then I don't know how to mount and reading about it only makes things worse to a newbie. Needless to say table sat for weeks and I said "see yea" and dumped it all. Got most my money back and just spent time and focus on my beloved digital..

Now I am back and went the Rega - premounted cart rout and hope it sounds nice and works well.  
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712 posts
 

tablejockey
Thanks - no one has ever mentioned this Cary phono to me? Is it in the same league as the Allnic 1201, Sutherland Duo or the venerable and universally loved  Herron VTPH-2A? 
Thanks 
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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
Homer_skins

definitly try plugging into the wall. 

My Amp, Dac and Preamp all sound 1,000 times better just plugged into the Wall.

I do not mean a little better either.

Ask Pass Labs, Vitus, Simaudio or Krell? They will all tell you to plug into the wall! 

Sure buy an awesome power cable and upgrade your outlet as well and if you can defiantly go for the discated 20 amp circuit and the above as well. 

I can highly recommend the Oxiyde R1. It’s 95% the performance of the super expensive Furutech outlets at 1/5 the price. It’s a little smoother also which is nice. The Furutech can be a little harsh.

I have tried many conditioners and will keep trying more and more until I find one I like.

Once I settle on one I use it for a few weeks or month or two and then for heck of it I try the wall and then I’m like WTF and the conditioner goes on Audiogon. 

Unless your home is a city apartment with horrible power and even then I bet it will be better then most conditioners.

Last night I just bought the Audioquest Niagra 1000 and matching Audioquest Tornado HC AC Power Cable.

AQ claims that their new cable line is designed to work with their Niagra line of conditioners so we will see. 

Here is what I settled on buying the last couple weeks to fill out my new analog front end. 

Rega P8 Turntable
Rega Apheta 2 Cart
Sutherland Duo Phonostage 
(2) Audience Au24se AC Cables 
- (phonostage takes 2 AC Cable)
Audioquest Fire 1M Interconnect 
- (RCA for phonostage to preamp)
Audioquest Niagara 1000 AC unit
Audioquest Tornado AC Cable 

Hope my anologue front end can compete with my digital. 






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712 posts
 
Do any of you guys know if this could be used on my Rega P8 TT?


Decca London Super Gold Phono Cartridge
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99gg8-decca-london-super-gold-phono-cartridge-like-new-cartridg...


I read Rega arm/base doesn't have all the adjustments other tables have and I would not want to get into shims and all that stuff. Do you guys know if this might work? From what I heard they sound amazing?

Thoughts?

Thank you   

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fsmithjack OP
712 posts
 
Thanks - yes I checked out that Gold Note ph10 and it look great. I never looked into them before. Very nice stuff. I went with a Sutherland Duo because I found such a great deal right in my price range.

Thanks  

So you own and like the Decca London Super Gold Phono Cartridge?
 
That is great to hear. A audio friend of mine is selling one and the only cart I will own is the Apheta so thought this might be cool to try. I think it is a MM is it not? Or more like moving iron or something? I don't know much about it? What did you set your phonostage at? 47K? Thanks 
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Thanks for this info. I will order one of these right now just too have one if I need it.

Today I ordered the Audio Additives - Digital Stylus Force Gauge at the recommendation of another member. He said I should own this Stylus Gauge which made sense to me.   

I am a full blown vinyl newbie. Pretty knowledgeable on the digital/ethernet/server side but know so little about mounting carts and setting up tables. That is why I bought a Rega to avoid all of it.

I could not get my VPI table to sound right and dumped it for that very reason and it was a nicer table than this one. 

This link you provided is pretty cool and seems simple enough. Thanks

I assume I don't need to worry about any of this stuff with Rega carts right?

Are there any other carts other than Rega carts that are know to "work well" with Rega tables that are more plug in play or just align and mount that don't need to worry about shims with or is that really only with just Rega carts?

I guess my only simple upgrade path for my Rega would be the Rega Aphelion?

Wish it wasn't so darn expensive but there are no other Rega carts between the Apheta 2 and the Aphelion? This thing is more than the table/arm and current cart together?


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