One key to building great systems over time.

Never...

I only experimented enough to know how to embed rightfully three audio basic system...

Many here are more talented and knowleadgeable in audio and gifted in craftmanship work...

I am not...

I only tried hard for many years to reach a relatively audiophile sound at low cost and i identified some problems others did not identify clearly as the triple embeddings controls at low cost and basic acoustic to optimize specific ears/ specific speakers/ specific room relation... Thats all...

I discovered against all odds or most opinions by experimenting that it is possible to reach good sound with all acoustic factors well optimized at relatively low cost...Most people dont think nor believe that , they are too much gear dependant and not enough interested in acoustic to experiment and study it a bit...Then they stay vulnerable to marketing and their experience is limited to  a good or bad components synergy... They dont experience the impact of all three embeddings controls together if well done... Then only costly component upgrade make sense for them to improve the synergy between components ...

No acoustian bother themselves with price tag when they create a room for a specfic pair of ears and a specific pair of speakers, if the basic audio system is relatively good and synergetical to begin with ... Acoustician know that the sound source is the room/speakers and the ears inner filters and structure and the HRTF not the files, the vinyl, the R2R or sigma dac or tube dac etc nor the amplifier etc, all components like cables are only vehicle for some information going to  the SOURCE of the sound experience  which is acoustically all acoustic factors linked to the ears/head/speakers/room... Then playing with acoustics is more impactful in shaping the sound than changing a good amplifier for another good one in most marginal upgrade which are most upgrades...

Upgrading component work when for some level of price there is a bad synergy between components, it does not work anymore and easily when for some level of price you had good synergy...

And i prefer low cost system well embedded generally to higher costly one badly embedded ... Most people would pick the reverse choices..😊 I would be tempted too because i know how to embed any system at any price, acoustics dont change with price...

@mahgister

 

You cannot buy knowledge and we always pay for ignorance...

Good advise and worth repeating.

Have you considered a career in hi-end audio?

There is not only a minimal level of acoustic satisfaction for any piece of gear at any price in general, but also an optimal acoustic satisfaction level for a specific chosen piece of gear, then there is 2 threshold defined by various acoustic concepts both objectively and subjectively because we can learn how to control these thresholds to some degree and to some level...

But these two thresholds are also related to a S.Q. /price ratio... A diminushing returns "law" in an objective and also subjective double way, 2 thresholds also here, which define a non linear relation between price and quality in audio ...

Then how can we get what we pay for ? If there is no linear relation between price and OBJECTIVE acoustic experience nor any linear relation between price and SUBJECTIVE satisfaction ?

You cannot buy knowledge and we always pay for ignorance...

For sure in principle a Magnepan speakers for example are way better than a small pair of active 4 inches bass driver speakers paid 100 bucks 12 year ago...

But wait a minute , what if i put the magneplanar in a bad room with the wrong coupling gear, and what if you couple the small box ideally in a perfectly well controlled acoustic environment and if you modified them to reach clear 50 hertz ?

I know because i listened to these two cases...

Guess which experience i prefered ?😊

Read me right here magnepan are better in principle to  low cost small active speakers even if well designed ( mine are ) ...But any piece of gear need to be coupled and embedded well to give a positive optimal sound experience...

It is the reason why i take seriously only basic knowledge, especially acoustics, over reviews of gear where the reviewers claim to deliver knowledge ...

I need to increase my knowledge way more than i need upgrading my components.. This is true not only for me as a principle but for everybody ...

But people want to pay with money not with their time and studies...

The upgrading series of purchase comes from this very often... Not from enlightened and knowleadgeable studies and experiments... I myself lived through this upgrading bug too... 😊

@mahgister

Well, honestly everyone’s experience is different and their objectives different. There is a class of folks that @mrdecibel alludes to who have the money and are listening to their systems, and want the latest great reviewed amp or speakers, and yeah, they are kinda lazy. They want the prestige of the latest Mark Levinson amp. To me, that is not an audiophile… they are really not into the music.

I consider you a serious audiophile who had done his homework... You dont need my advice... But the beginners must be advised about what is essential at any price point... And it is not the gear but the synergy as you already knows it... Anyway you had better knowledge than  me about high end gear anyway... 😊

After that  necessary  synergy with all components it is all the electrical, mechanical and acoustical embeddings which matter BEFORE any upgrade... You already know all that and enjoy a top system now...

All i have to say do not concern you in the least and as i say if i had the money i will ask your opinion about the gear choices...I trust you... All audiophiles are not equal...😁

I am happy with my low cost system though ... It is possible to create minimal acoustic satisfaction at low cost and i succeeded doing it three times...thats all i say... All i ever said here concern beginners not owner of top well embedded system..

Very interesting point mrdecibel ...

Myself i think that most audiophiles are such as you described because they never .learned that between music personal engagement and the gear component is acoustics learning...Many  are lazy and buying is way less costly in time than studying and experimenting with basic synergetical gear...

Then they test their gear instead of listening music between two upgrades...

Basic acoustic and electrical and mechanical embeddings teach us how to gain the most from any system ... Upgrading teach nothing...

There is a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold...

This threshold is defined by many acoustic factors you must learn to recognize in your system room by studying and experimenting ...No money needed..

 When this minimal satisfaction threshold is there you know how to upgrade with a real change not a marginal one and often most upgrading are no more appealing...

It is my experience.. i am more happy than most with two  low cost synergetical  systems i learned how to embed than most with costlier system not well embedded... ...

Upgrading is useless in many cases and may induce you on the wrong direction even and especially if you pick a better component 😁...Beware...

Why ?

Because you will think wrongfully reinforced in the idea by a better upgrading purchase that in audio the solution is endless upgrading parts...

It is not that at all...

The solution is learning how to embed mechanically (vibrations) electrically( signals/noise ratio) and especially acoustically ( timbre and spatialization and immersiveness ) what you alread have BEFORE any upgrading or after a very necessary upgrading ...I upgraded myself in the past most of the times erroneously BEFORE learning the basic..

if you dont learn that , you will be lost for decades in costly upgrades , for sure at the end owning a costly system but knowing nothing about audio and acoustics save the user manuals of too costly components...

Why am i happy with a low cost system now under 1000 bucks ?

Am i deluded or deaf ? Think and pick your answer...😊

But you must know that when i spoke about crosstalk or immersiveness i learned how to control them in my room by homemade solutions ... 😊

Nothing will replace basic studies, use google for any search ...

The bad news is that my studying and experimenting with no cost in money solutions takes much time...I was retired to spell the truth... Most people are not retired...But i say all that because they must know the truth and be patient in their journey and not throwing money in a bottomless race toward sounds ...

This hobby is not about price tag collections is’nt it? But about learning with fun ( experiments) no ? ...It was for me after i learned the hard way by useless upgrading at first because i was ignorant in audio 12 years ago ( i am 72 years old ) 😉

Am I wrong?

You are right...

I bought Sansui alpha and never look back...

I tried to upgrade it with one of the top tubes headphone amplifier in the market one month aGO , it cost me a almost the cost of my actual system in return fees and assurance and customs... after few minutes of listening i know that i HAD made a mistake , the Sansui is a top flasgship in 1985.....upgrading it will cost me 10,000 and only with the right amp not the first one at this price...

Vintage dont means obsolete in some case...

Same thing is true for my AKG K340... Impossible to upgrade if i dont pay 50 times their cost used...

Think about it....

And after buying vintage read about acoustics...For dac vintage is not a good idea, a new recent well reviewed one even at  relatively low cost will do... I own 4 with no faults when coupled synergetically...

It is possible to build an audiophile system at low cost with the right synergy between components and acoustic knowledge , not without it....

I know because i had it....

I put 6 modifications on basic low cost speakers that now beat any headphone i ever owned save my top one...

Nothing could replace basic embeddings mechanical, electrical and acoustic controls and gear synergy... If you think that you need costly piece of gear to do it , you are mostly on the wrong path... begin with relatively low cost components and learn how to do with them and learn how to put them at their optimal level... If you succeeed it is even possible than you quit upgrading... I did... 😊

There exist a minimal quality threshold of sound experience... When you are there you forget sound completely because music listening now take all your time...

I forgot that it takes also serious reviews statistical analysis studies because it is not possible to optimize badly designed low cost speakers or headphones... Most are ... 😁 Some are not badly designed even at low cost...

My low cost speakers are good but sound miraculously better after my modifications... Dont hope anything by buying low cost components like speakers after plugging them without any optimization...