One big subwoofer or two weaker subwoofers?


Hello:

Do you think that, for stereo, is better to have a bigger subwoofer or a pair of weaker ones?

For example, should it better to have a pair of Rel Strata III (or the new Strata 5) or a single Stadium III?

Thank you
mavilla

Showing 7 responses by sean

How about two big subs instead of two small subs or one big sub? If you want low frequencies with authority, you can't do that with a small box and keep things "tight" with good transient response : ) Sean
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Mavilla: Try filling the interior volume of the sub with a varied density of foam ( or polyester fiberfil as a second choice ) and turning the crossover point as low or almost as low as it will go. This should get you a lot closer to something musical rather than something that goes "boom boom". You can fine-tune the quantity i.e. how "tight" or "loose" you want the bass by varying the amount of stuffing in the box. This shouldn't cost you more than about $10 or so to try and will probably make you a whole lot happier. Don't forget to try various placements for the sub once you get things dialed in reasonably close to where you want them with the stuffing.

El: As far as motor structure and mass goes, my Brother's 5" mids and 9" woofers both have 3" voice coils. The 9's have less than 30 grams of moving mass. How's that for "transient response capability"? From what i can tell, this is equivalent to having a fully massaged "big block" bolted into a shopping cart : )

Even with this much "motor structure" and lack of reciprocating weight, these drivers don't demonstrate the high "force factor" aka "slam" that many larger and heavier drivers are capable of. The bass is very tight and punchy, but it just doesn't have the "weight" or "impact" that one can achieve by using a larger driver. Even though my Brother is using two 9" woofers per side, he knows that he's missing bottom end. That's why he's also running two larger sub-woofers per side : ) Sean
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PS... Many folks confuse large quantities of bass and / or bass over-hang with deep bass extension. Since it is easier to obtain greater output at higher frequencies than it is to go deep and maintain high levels of linearity, many manufacturers substitute "bloom" for bottom end. Once one gets rid of the "artificial boost", you can really hear the lack of extension. I am going through this right now with my Father and his system. After rebuilding / modifying his system, he thinks he's missing deep bass. Since we effectively made his cabinets larger, which extends bass response, there is NO way that this is possible. What he's doing is confusing the lack of upper bass "bloat" for deep bass extension. While he's VERY happy with the improvements in bass definition and tonality, the lack of 80 Hz bass makes him think that the system is "lean". That's why i'm working on a 15" sub-woofer for him now : )
Greg: My Dad's system is actually quite solid down to 35 Hz and rolls off below that. Given that he doesn't listen to pipe organ music or electronica, he'll simply have to get used to "natural" sounding bass. It may take some time, but after living with stupendously bloated "thud" for years on end, and thinking it was both "good" and "extended", it may be tough for him to deal with initially. As i've already commented though, he is well aware of the phenomenal increase in bass resolution and transient response, so i'm thinking that there is hope : )

As far as the sub goes, that will be used for HT purposes only. This specific model was rated as being -1.5 dB down at 25 Hz and is quite large. Due to using this strictly for special effects on movies, placement of the sub becomes less critical. This is in comparison to if the sub was used for stereo purposes, which would require some semblance of low frequency imaging. The speakers that he's running for mains are actually too large for the given installation in my opinion. Adding two large sub-woofers with the requisite box size required for good performance would be too much for this room and there just isn't enough space to do so. Given that his mains already have an 8" and 10" per cabinet that share the low frequency load, he's not "hurting" in this regard.

Besides all of that, i'm paying for the sub, amp and cabling, so he can't complain about "only having one sub" : )

El: The mids, tweeters and woofers that my Brother is using are Morel drivers. Given that Morel purchased technology from Dynaudio, one can see the similarities in driver design.

Having said that, i agree with your assessment. That is, even with minimal mass and big motors, these drivers just don't move air / respond like a "big boy" can. This is why i've got six 12's, four 10's, six 8's in my HT system and eight 12's in my main two channel system. Even with all of that, i can hear others saying "What ?!?!?! NO 15's, 18's or 21's ????" : )

UncleJeff: If you do some research, i think that you'll find that you'll have better luck building a sub from a kit than anything that you can buy at a brick and mortar shop for anywhere near the same amount of money. Having said that, most sub kits are PHENOMENALLY easy to put together, so don't let a lack of mechanical / electrical aptitude scare you away from attempting such a project. Sean
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PS... The pair of subs that i've got lined up for my next "project" make use of a single 12" and two 15's in large, low Q sealed cabinets. I may use these with my Ohm F's, which should help increase max spl and clean up their transient response a bit. Obviously, active crossovers would be used since passive's do horrible things to the amplifier / speaker interphase : )
El: First of all, i'm shooting for the 64" drivers that EV used to make. Who wants those "puny" 30 inch EV's when you can have the "BIG boy" : )

The JBL's at Parts Express are designed to be used in a vented system. If i was going to spend that much money on a driver, i would use one that was more optimally suited for a sealed design.

Funny that you should mention them though as the 15" that i'm using actually is a JBL. Some folks consider it the best ( or one of the best ) "audiophile type" woofers that JBL ever made. It is a model 2235 and both the driver and the cabinet that it came in are in great shape.

For those that might remember these, it is a good sized Sumo Samson subwoofer that i purchased for $40 ( yes, FOURTY ) locally. Factory specs showed a response of 25 Hz to 125 Hz +/- .5 dB ( yes, HALF a dB ), but i don't believe that one bit. This is a vented design using TWO huge ( 4" x 18.5" ) ports. Obviously, this thing was designed to move a LOT of air at low frequencies and was optimized for high spl's. Due to that tuning though, i'm quite certain that it would lack "finesse", both at lower volumes and for music use. Given that this will be strictly used for the LFE channel when watching movies, it should work out quite well. Either way, it will be FAR from stock when i'm done with it.

Given the price and the driver involved, there was NO way that i was going to pass up a deal like this. The only bad part about the whole transaction was trying to get this behemoth into a hatchback by myself. The cabinet is appr 30" x 24" x 19" and weighs 150 lbs. Needless to say, i DID break a sweat :( Sean
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If one can do the math using the Thiel-Small parameters, it is not hard to figure out if the woofer will work optimally in a sealed or vented design. Having said that, there are quite a few woofers on the market today that are designed as kinda-sorta "universal" woofers. That is, they'll work in either type of enclosure but not as well as a woofer specifically designed for one or the other. This JBL works optimally in a vented enclosure, hence Revel's use of a vent.

Here's some info that i found on the web for those that are interested in such things. It was written by an individual by the name of Dave Edwards from what i can gather. I don't know who he is, if he is an "industry professional" or "diy'er", etc... Obviously, some of this is going to be up to interpretation and is based on his own experience. I didn't read through all of this, but what i did looked to be of good quality and pretty factual. Like anything else though, some of this may be a "judgment call".

When trying to work these equations, just bare in mind that many "spec's" from various manufacturers of raw drivers are VERY wishful at best. As such, one almost has to have the drivers in hand, break them in thoroughly and then test them to obtain usable spec's. Obviously, if you have spec's from someone that has done all of the above that you feel that you can trust, that will save a LOT of time and money.

As a side note, some of these figures WILL change as the temperature of the motor structure ( voice coil ) on the driver varies. There are also quite a few other very important factors that aren't discussed here that go into making a "world class" speaker design. Having said that, knowing and using some of these simple "guidelines" can net you a very decent speaker without spending a million dollars. Then again, a million dollars could surely get you a VERY fine speaker if you put your mind to it : )

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Prior to 1970, there were no easy or affordable methods accepted as standard in the industry for obtaining comparative data about loudspeaker performance. Recognized laboratory tests were expensive and unrealistic for the thousands of individuals needing performance information. Standard measurement criteria were required to enable manufacturers to publish consistent data for customers to make comparisons between various loudspeakers.

Thiele-Small Parameters

In the early seventies, several technical papers were presented to the AES (Audio Engineering Society) that resulted in the development of what we know today as 'Thiele-Small Parameters'. These papers were authored by A.N.Thiele and Richard H. Small. Thiele was the senior engineer of design and development for the Australian Broadcasting Commission and was responsible at the time for the Federal Engineering Laboratory, as well as for analyzing the design of equipment and systems for sound and vision broadcasting. Small was, at the time, a Commonwealth Post-graduate Research Student in the School of Electrical Engineering at the University of Sydney.
Thiele and Small devoted considerable effort to show how the following parameters define the relationship between a speaker and a particular enclosure. However, they can be invaluable in making choices because they tell you far more about the transducer's real performance than the basic benchmarks of size, maximum power rating or average sensitivity.

Fs------This parameter is the free-air resonant frequency of a speaker. Simply stated, it is the point at which the weight of the moving parts of the speaker becomes balanced with the force of the speaker suspension when in motion. If you've ever seen a piece of string start humming uncontrollably in the wind, you have seen the effect of reaching a resonant frequency. It is important to know this information so that you can prevent your enclosure from 'ringing'. With a loudspeaker, the mass of the moving parts, and the stiffness of the suspension (surround and spider) are the key elements that affect the resonant frequency. As a general rule of thumb, a lower Fs indicates a woofer that would be better for low-frequency reproduction than a woofer with a higher Fs. This is not always the case though, because other parameters affect the ultimate performance as well.

Re--------This is the DC resistance of the driver measured with an ohm meter and it is often referred to as the 'DCR'. This measurement will almost always be less than the driver's nominal impedance. Consumers sometimes get concerned the Re is less than the published impedance and fear that amplifiers will be overloaded. Due to the fact that the inductance of a speaker rises with a rise in frequency, it is unlikely that the amplifier will often see the DC resistance as its load.

Le--------This is the voice coil inductance measured in millihenries (mH). The industry standard is to measure inductance at 1,000 Hz. As frequencies get higher there will be a rise in impedance above Re. This is because the voice coil is acting as an inductor. Consequently, the impedance of a speaker is not a fixed resistance, but can be represented as a curve that changes as the input frequency changes. Maximum impedance (Zmax) occurs at Fs.

Q Parameters---------Qms, Qes, and Qts are measurements related to the control of a transducer's suspension when it reaches the resonant frequency (Fs). The suspension must prevent any lateral motion that might allow the voice coil and pole to touch (this would destroy the loudspeaker). The suspension must also act like a shock absorber. Qms is a measurement of the control coming from the speaker's mechanical suspension system (the surround and spider). View these components like springs. Qes is a measurement of the control coming from the speaker's electrical suspension system (the voice coil and magnet). Opposing forces from the mechanical and electrical suspensions act to absorb shock. Qts is called the 'Total Q' of the driver and is derived from an equation where Qes is multiplied by Qms and the result is divided by the sum of the same.
As a general guideline, Qts of 0.4 or below indicates a transducer well suited to a vented enclosure. Qts between 0.4 and 0.7 indicates suitability for a sealed enclosure. Qts of 0.7 or above indicates suitability for free-air or infinite baffle applications. However, there are exceptions! The Eminence Kilomax 18 has a Qts of 0.56. This suggests a sealed enclosure, but in reality it works extremely well in a ported enclosure. Please consider all the parameters when selecting loudspeakers. If you are in any doubt, contact your Eminence representative for technical assistance

Vas/Cms--------Vas represents the volume of air that when compressed to one cubic meter exerts the same force as the compliance (Cms) of the suspension in a particular speaker. Vas is one of the trickiest parameters to measure because air pressure changes relative to humidity and temperature — a precisely controlled lab environment is essential. Cms is measured in meters per Newton. Cms is the force exerted by the mechanical suspension of the speaker. It is simply a measurement of its stiffness. Considering stiffness (Cms), in conjunction with the Q parameters gives rise to the kind of subjective decisions made by car manufacturers when tuning cars between comfort to carry the president and precision to go racing. Think of the peaks and valleys of audio signals like a road surface then consider that the ideal speaker suspension is like car suspension that can traverse the rockiest terrain with race-car precision and sensitivity at the speed of a fighter plane. It’s quite a challenge because focusing on any one discipline tends to have a detrimental effect on the others

Vd------This parameter is the Peak Diaphragm Displacement Volume — in other words the volume of air the cone will move. It is calculated by doubling Xmax (Voice Coil Overhang of the driver) then multiplying the result by Sd (Surface area of the cone). Vd is noted in cc. The highest Vd figure is desirable for a sub-bass transducer

BL------Expressed in Tesla meters, this is a measurement of the motor strength of a speaker. Think of this as how good a weightlifter the transducer is. A measured mass is applied to the cone forcing it back while the current required for the motor to force the mass back is measured. The formula is mass in grams divided by the current in amperes. A high BL figure indicates a very strong transducer that moves the cone with authority!

Mms------This parameter is the combination of the weight of the cone assembly plus the ‘driver radiation mass load’. The weight of the cone assembly is easy: it’s just the sum of the weight of the cone assembly components. The driver radiation mass load is the confusing part. In simple terminology, it is the weight of the air (the amount calculated in Vd) that the cone will have to push

Rms------This parameter represents the mechanical resistance of a driver’s suspension losses. It is a measurement of the absorption qualities of the speaker suspension and is stated in N*sec/m.

EBP-----This measurement is calculated by dividing Fs by Qes. The EBP figure is used in many enclosure design formulas to determine if a speaker is more suitable for a closed or vented design. An EBP close to 100 usually indicates a speaker that is best suited for a vented enclosure. On the contrary, an EBP closer to 50 usually indicates a speaker best suited for a closed box design. This is merely a starting point. Many well-designed systems have violated this rule of thumb! Qts should also be considered.

Xmax/Xmech--------Short for Maximum Linear Excursion. Speaker output becomes non-linear when the voice coil begins to leave the magnetic gap. Although suspensions can create non-linearity in output, the point at which the number of turns in the gap (see BL) begins to decrease is when distortion starts to increase. Eminence has historically been very conservative with this measurement and indicated only the voice coil overhang (Xmax: Voice coil height minus top plate thickness, divided by 2). Xmech is expressed by Eminence as the lowest of four potential failure condition measurements times 2: Spider crashing on top plate; Voice coil bottoming on back plate; Voice coil coming out of gap above core; Physical limitation of cone. Take the lowest of these measurements then multiply it by two. This gives a distance that describes the maximum mechanical movement of the cone.

Sd------This is the actual surface area of the cone, normally given in square cm.

Zmax-----This parameter represents the speaker’s impedance at resonance.

Usable frequency range---------This is the frequency range for which Eminence feels the transducer will prove useful. Manufacturers use different techniques for determining ‘Usable Frequency Range’. Most methods are recognized as acceptable in the industry, but can arrive at different results. Technically, many loudspeakers are used to produce frequencies in ranges where they would theoretically be of little use. As frequencies increase, the off-axis coverage of a transducer decreases relative to its diameter. At a certain point, the coverage becomes ‘beamy’ or narrow like the beam of a flashlight. Following is a chart that demonstrates at what frequency this phenomenon occurs relative to the size of the transducer. If you’ve ever stood in front of a guitar amplifier or speaker cabinet, then moved slightly to one side or the other and noticed a different sound, you have experienced this phenomenon and are now aware of why it occurs. Clearly, most two-way enclosures ignore the theory and still perform quite well. The same is true for many guitar amplifiers, but it is useful to know at what point you can expect a compromise in coverage.

Power handling-------------This specification is very important to transducer selection. Obviously, you need to choose a loudspeaker that is capable of handling the input power you are going to provide. By the same token, you can destroy a loudspeaker by using too little power. The ideal situation is to choose a loudspeaker that has the capability of handling more power than you can provide lending some headroom and insurance against thermal failure. To use an automobile as an analogy; you would not buy a car that could only go 55mph if that were the speed you always intended to drive. Generally speaking, the number one contributor to a transducer’s power rating is its ability to release thermal energy. This is affected by several design choices, but most notably voice coil size, magnet size, venting, and the adhesives used in voice coil construction. Larger coil and magnet sizes provide more area for heat to dissipate, while venting allows thermal energy to escape and cooler air to enter the motor structure. Equally important is the ability of the voice coil to handle thermal energy. Eminence is renowned for its use of proprietary adhesives and components that maximize the voice coil’s ability to handle extreme temperatures. Mechanical factors must also be considered when determining power handling. A transducer might be able to handle 1,000W from a thermal perspective, but would fail long before that level was reached from a mechanical issue such as the coil hitting the back plate, the coil coming out of the gap, the cone buckling from too much outward movement, or the spider bottoming on the top plate. The most common cause of such a failure would be asking the speaker to produce more low frequencies than it could mechanically produce at the rated power. Be sure to consider the suggested usable frequency range and the Xmech parameter in conjunction with the power rating to avoid such failures

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Hope this helps..... Sean
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El: Here's the "generic" figure that you're looking for.
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EBP-----This measurement is calculated by dividing Fs by Qes. The EBP figure is used in many enclosure design formulas to determine if a speaker is more suitable for a closed or vented design. An EBP close to 100 usually indicates a speaker that is best suited for a vented enclosure. On the contrary, an EBP closer to 50 usually indicates a speaker best suited for a closed box design. This is merely a starting point. Many well-designed systems have violated this rule of thumb! Qts should also be considered.
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The JBL driver that you refer to has an Fs of 25 and a Qes of .34 according to factory specs. The Fs ( 25 ) divided by Qes ( .34 ) equals the EBP ( 73.5 ). This figure is "kinda-sorta" in-between the "basic guidelines" of 50 for a sealed design and 100 of a vented design. Given the lower Qts and higher Fs of the driver, it definitely leans towards the vented side in my opinion. Having said that, it will also work in a sealed design. Playing with box volume along with the type and density of stuffing will have major effects on the resonant frequency and amplitude of the impedance peak.

As a side note, larger box size can allow increased extension, but it does so at the expense of power handling and transient response. There is an optimally sized box / stuffing combo for any given driver. You can fudge the figures up or down to achieve specific goals, but there are trade-offs involved. Sean
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PS... I'm off to work on my Father's sub. Drop me an email if you want to chat further.
Scott: Thanks for the laugh. Too bad my Dad didn't have a "sub" like that. Taking a date out for a ride in the "sub" and "running out of gas" or having "engine trouble" would have probably been FAR more effective going that route : ) Sean
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