However the limit was his advice not to read Frege but Rudolf
Steiner. What an arrogant nitwit. I never said that Frege was a nitwit...Dont put your mouthwash in my mouth... I said that it was not a mind like Whitehead or Goethe... i read these 2 and i read 200 hundred books of Steiner by the way...I study Frege when i had 24 years old...I dont live my life around it like you did it seems perusing his work and selling yourself with it on an audiophile forum thinking that nobody here know about him... 😁😊 I can cite 200 hundred other writers in science and philosophy... I never call yourself a nitwit either by the way like you just did to me even after i welcome you in my post here... Your insult speak volume about your understanding of philosophy and your being ... By the way i studied extensively Cantor , Grothendieck, Goedel and Peirce and Cassirer , each one being a giant over Frege work...Like Whitehead was a giant over Russell...Educate yourself before using insult... I will return to yourself, because you are unable to discuss, your own insult.... |
The evolution of language does not contradict the existence of these 2 levels but is a consequence of it .....
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Grammar is the way we structure our language. I lived through 2 intellectual and almost spiritual ectasy in my life... The discovery of the distribution of prime numbers...But this is another story... And the deep meaning behind ANY "apparently arbitrary" rule of grammar... People who think that grammar of any language is arbitrary are deluded or ignorant of linguistic...Grammars mirror completely the neuro activity of our brain in a different mode of expression in each culture... i cannot vouch too much for Gustave Guillaume psychomechanic of language and discourse.... Alas! only in french.... Grammar is boring if we stay at his surface level, in his deep internal mechanism it is like a LSD trip in a higher mathematic.... It takes a genius to guide us.... Guillaume is certainly one in more than 40 books.... If you read french try it.... For me there is 2 levels in language dynamic genesis: The deep motivation of sound-speech on one unconscious level on a long time scale in relation with words construction and formation and the " feeling" aspect of human constitution .. And a corresponding relative demotivation of the sound speech which correspond to what we describe generally as sentence "grammar" in a more conscious level corresponding to the " thinking" aspect of human constitution... The 2 opposite mechanisms work together on 2 levels...This idea is mine, not strictly in Guillaume like i expose it here... But it gives the flavor of my reflection... These 2 levels could be resumed in a simplest way if you remark that they match and correspond to poetic mode working and the prosaic mode working of language.... Now for the REASON to be REASON these 2 working mode are necessary if not, human degenerate into irrational animal or so called "rational" machine.... Then to be "human" is being able to create and accomodate together all derivative modes of these 2 archetypal symbolic matrix and modes : the poetic and the prosaic in language... |
The Germans have the most philosopher in the world with
possible exception of the ’’old Greek’’. What is however very
strange is their opinion about them: ’’there is nothing more
easy than to refute an philosopher . The only thing one need
to do is to tread some other’’. Like the history of music, or of any art, or any histories of any other cultural activies which deevelop his own temporal scale, history of philosophy mirror the history of consciousness... In this consciousness collective history, each philosopher is indispensable and necessary to consider if we want to understand the scopes and perspectives present in each era... Then the main point is not a futile and sometimes childish refutation of each philosopher but the crucial understanding of his role and place in this history of consciousness.... What illustrate and reveal about human consciousness this philosopher perspective in all history.... Embedding any philosopher in the multidimensional history of philosophy and consciousness is analogous of the way we must embed any audio specific pieces of gear in their 3 working dimensions... i cannot resist to make this analogy.... 😁😊 |
The assertion that politics is like chess is refuted by Gasparov
himself . Just a word to precise here that NOBODY ever claimed anything of the sort in this thread about politic and chess being alike... Then you assume too much here for the sake of your post... And myself i speak too much... Anyway i thank you for your thread and interesting remarks out of the audio trivialities... 😊 |
The assertion that politics is like chess is refuted by Gasparov
himself . BTW I would prefer Federer above Gasparov as
new President of Russian Federation. From Frege and Quine to politic... 😊 I am not sure if it is not a slippery road .... 😁 I dont know for Gasparov or Federer, i only know for sure that Bobby Fisher would have not been a good choice for tennis or politic.... 😉 Of all that i guess politic is like physic or chess or tennis in the best case a vocation not only a work.... Nobody could improvise himself a doctor, or a savior for the world , save Bill Gates and Jesus for sure... But nowadays it seems medecine and computer industries and corporations are way over politic in weight ... With the next virtual reality A.I. we will need no Christ to walk on water anyway....We will need nothing because we will own all our dreams come true through machine... Am i cynic here? Yes ..... My best to you.... |
This thread has been surprising, amusing and interesting. But it’s over my head. Time for music that is over my head by King’s X.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2SYPzKzD94 Truth is an encompassing experience well over our head and in our heart.... Thanks for this wonderful music recommendation....😁😁😁😁😁😁😊😎😊😉 |
You are an idiot millercarbon...
Gasparov is a better tennis player than Federer by all counts...
I know because i look at every Tv match ever diffused...
😊
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If I am well informed this is used in
mathematics. Alas mathematics is my ’’Achilles heel’’. There is NO logic in mathematic.. One classical example : imaginary and complex and hypercomplex numbers... No logic here at all....An harmony miraculously emerging from some intuition between geometry and numbers yes.... But logic? None... Another example would be the description of all animals morphology in their living environemnt related to the relation between the metabolism , the nervous system, and the limbs system... No logic here either....Goethe is the father of this morphological studies.... Sorry to give you this old news.... People who are paid to teach mathematic must be logical and systematic yes in their exposition.... This is not mathematical active creativity this is explanations along some KNOWN roads which the pupil must go along...But the prime number distribution for example cannot be explained LOGICALLY no more than the conic sections... We must PERCEIVE them first... The explanation come FROM the perception and intuition ... Not from logic... There is an ORDER in mathematic like in Nature...But NO logic... But there is no logic in nature either... There is no logic in acoustic for example , guess why? Then take you Fregean class distinctions where they belong to.... The dustbin of human thinking.... Sorry to piss on the parade.... By the way this principle : "primus inter pares" the latin formula for some Roman notion of "equality" in politic is related to what we call the first modern "Law science" , and come from the Roman...And this principle made more sense for human life than all Frege formal and mechanistic distinction.... And a universal language alleged to be suitable for " science" already exist, and one such language is created now by Stephan Wolfram .... It is a complete philosophical non sense but a powerful technology at the origin of what we call "transhumanism", the idolatry of technology.... Science cannot be reduced to ANY logic ....and to any program or model.... Science is not a "logical" activity at all...It is a rational endeavour... The coherent figure of science come from Reason... And Reason cannot be reduced to ANY prescribed logic at all, save by some people keep safely for themselves in the past in an asylum ...They are now alas! sometimes head of big corporations cartel... they want to create a perfect global united logical world submitted to an artificial intelligence..... Do you want names? |
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Fact is just a particular probability density function, fleeting as that might be… Even the so called God Particle lives but a short “ life “. Facts are way more hard and comes from a way more deep layer of meaning than probability function... :) I recomment to you the books of Bernard Mandelbrot and his disciple : Nassim Nicholas Taleb... And quantum theory is an expression of ultimate consciousness not his root... Materialism die suddenly with Planck first and Heisenberg....Journalist had not noted that yet... :) By the way there is 2 sigificant event in my life : love and prime numbers distribution....Bach is the sum of the 2 for me in music....Sun RA is an "error" i will die to keep with me.... 😊 |
i prefer to think that Dietrich Bonhoeffer had better to say and importantly DO. Sad we didn’t get the expected outcome…..
You are right here.... A giant.... but history is not finished yet.... Some dont think that consciousness exist... For me death dont exist, suffering only exist...The body is a marvellous speck of dust...Nothing more... |
@magister i appreciate that you recognize the need for a “ master “, teacher, sensei, etc…..
Thanks :) But it is less a need than an humble admission of my limitations... I was teaching reading methods and one day a student ask me to make a list of my "gurus"... I stop at 80 and it was 30 years ago.... |
Maghister , You missed many important ’’points’’. Perhaps and certainly if i want to be honest, but for me you miss many more... :) Anyway i want here to thank you for the discussion initiated by you... You can’t ignore this
with your verbalism nor by assuming ’’consciousness’’ as
the old Greek ’’ deus ex machina’’. For you consciousness is a ghost in a box... If you want to undertand what is "consciousness" and why it is not an "illusion" but the root of reality... I cannot convince you with words...Even with a book about all human history by genius like the german poet And thinker : Jean Gebser "the ever present origin"... Reading the treatises of Goethe in science and his maxims could help to figure it out... After all Goethe is the greatest thinker in germany: Shakespeare + Newton in the same head...So deep even today Goethe is underestimated save by genius like Cassirer and other great thinkers.... Kant is great but not on the same level....It is an academic professor so great it was... Beside them what is Frege? :) the greatest logician is Kurt Goedel... Anyway discussing with you is interesting and i will not try to convince you.... Consciousness is not an argument in a discourse, it never was, but the landscape where all there is, is.... "he origin ever present"... Buddhah discourse, Lao Tse, or Christ.... This is also "thinking" not only blind religion....Thinking is not propositional calculus nor scientific proposition about matter or reality ...It is way deeper... By the way i studied linguistic and my master is a french genius who wrote 40 books : Gustave Guillaume ... He is the founder of a neurolinguistic approach to language... I cannot made a short introduction to all that here.... Alas we dont know each other in reality.... Only through short posts... I apologize if i was "rude" .... I am passionnate ... and i apologize to be ignorant about cartridges....All audio subject interest me for sure...But i lost my turntable eons ago for practical reason.. My best to you... |
There is no such thing as ’’rationality’’ to find
in human history. Rationality is not an object supposed to exist, nor a concept only supposed to be eternal... Latin rationality inherited from the greek Logos... It is a living RELATION, an internal TOTALITY encompassing what we call "reality" now, which is material only, discourse and speech and consciousness and thinking mind... The transformation of this internal totality of experience in Three external totalities is the passage from the beginning of our civilization to the actual "hubris" and Faustian will of our own actual world, culminating in technological idolatrry called transhumanism...Which is the absolute death of reason by separating it from freedom and then separating it from the reality and from language.... Rationality is a meaningful creation by imaginative moral perception... When someone say: "Dont do to others what you dont want the others did to you, " this person by a FREE act of moral perceptive imagination create a NEW reality where it is possible to experiment in himself what others will feel...Without this freedom this is not possible...Free moral imaginative perception is a new organ of perception literally.... How can we perceive pure love without it? Rationality is a NEW meaningful phenomenon created in the cosmos and it came into being by a free act of thinking ONLY....It is not a dead rule... But something that is born new each day , it is evolutive growing process... Then rationality exist at the same time like an absolute creation and like an absolute new world...It is the living link between the two... What is reality without rationality: a nightmare who work to exist and will disapear...Look in an horror movie What is reality with rationality : something no numbers can define, a changing, evolving, meaninful growing living new cosmos... Calling that wishful thinking is abolishing freedom...And calling that wishful thinking is negating reality not endorsing it...It is endorsing a condemned reality promised to disapear not by a judging God external to it but by the power of our freedom... Reality need us to exist....If not, something lack for his perpetuation as conscious life.... Kant was wrong... what moves human being to act is not an external God or an external imperative , a duty... It is freedom to love.... Miyostin, The ’’shorthand’’ description of truth is ’’correspondence
with reality’’. Truth come into being by participation not ONLY by an EXTERNAL correspondance between language,mind and reality...This participation participated to an INTERNAL totality of meaning between reality, mind and language... Technology is powerful but BLIND... Technology is not science itself.... And science is not ONLY knowledge... It is not enough for science to exist....It lack free consciousness and moral perceptive and creative imagination....The cult of technology is an idolatry of power without science nor reason... All misunderstanding in philosophy mostly come with the lost of an innate meaning and the freedom of pure power inherited by the emergence of nominalism...It was a detotalisation of the original logos...History after biological evolution could not exist without this pure act of possible freedom without this lost of innate meaning which was an original "programmation" of consciousness...This history is a revelation (apocalypsos in greek ) of our own FREE being ....We are free to create hell or heaven.... It is not religion here.... Read science fiction book.... Like "Blade runner" inspired by Philip K. Dick.... Any act of perceptive and creative moral imagination is a prophecy or a potential prediction... We choose between horror or beauty... Freely.... They still need to discover Frege. So in this case Americans and
English (Russel) were first. By the way it is impossible to understand history of philosophy which is also an history of consciousness ( like music history is or art history etc) without going back to the origin of our own civilization with the birth of nominalism and BEFORE at the times of Parmenides... But it will take a book for me to explain that not a post.... |
@mahgister, I must not be explaining myself very well. There is only one reality. That reality can be interpreted differently but there is only one reality. mijostyn I misinterpret what you said yes.....Yes you are right men defines reality by agreeing in a consensus...This consensus is defined by numbers.... And these numbers can be verified by an experimental consensus... But then it lacks in this reality what is lacking in the numbers, the meaningful perceptive effect interpreted and also added on the phenomena by each consciousness... We can agree about that.... I then apologize for my over reaction... |
I will tell you from experience that if you put us all blind folded in a room with a fabulous system every single one of us would agree that it was an excellent system. All your post made sense only around the definition of the word " fabulous"... It resemble a sophism... All people around a system blindfolded will acclaim a truly fabulous system.... And a fabulous system is truly fabulous if all people blindfold could claim that it is.... Because we are all biased of course.... But no need to be blindfolded to train his biases...It is called education... And consciousness can erase pain....Or the opposite.... Thomas Aquinas with bad teeth did not suffer when praying when someone would put off his bad teeth....... Some people one morning discover the mystic Mary Magdalene de Pazzi ( the most beautiful woman in Italy at the times ) in ectasy with his hand freeze in a bucket of ice after washing the laundry and forgetful of the world suddenly ... Where is the pain? In his consciousness/body like a servant around his master.... Consciousness is older than pain...An angel or a yogi perhaps whisper it to my ears just now....It seems my angel/yogi contradict evolutive biology... Perhaps not.... Perhaps consciousness is at the same time LESS and MORE... And perhaps audio experience is also at the same time less AND more....Like the acoustical sleeping shephard/ princess waiting for the audiophile prince to kiss her before becoming a Queen ... 😁😊😊😊😊 |
’The logic’’ of reactions to my thread. I started this thread
with a kind of introduction to ’’what there is’’ in general and
limited the extension to ’’what analog component there are’’
in particular cartridges. I even named Raul and chakster
as example of worthwhile contributors. But there was not
one single reaction about ’’what cartridges there are’’ but
the most were critical remarks about my philosophical
’’content’’. However my reactions were only reactions to
reaction of the members. Who then should be blamed? You are totally right... I apologize... It is me only who could be blamed for the greatest part...I love philosophy more than cartridge alas! I dont own a turntable .... i am retired and reading the name Quine and Frege about cartridges i could not resist.....I will mute myself.... But why speaking about Quine and Frege in a cartridge thread? Is it not a bit "haughty" ? I cannot reproach it to you because i could be like that myself... 😁 Did you not wait for some reaction for this improbable association and somewhat kind of provocation? My deepest respects..... |
holmz234 posts10-16-2021 7:10pmBut these books exist only in french it is the catch....😁😊
^Thank God I don’t speak French.^
This thread is reminding me of the documentary I watched on psychedelic mushroom. (I want to watch all Docos while on mushrooms now.) ;) Great post and good observation... thanks... 😊 Precisely what enlarge the scope of our attention reveal itself often like a "mushroom" revelation or a religious one precisely... If you feel that impression not knowing where you are anymore, you are "stoned" indeed reading this thread, it is because your brain work now at higher speed... You now know how man create languages, religions, sciences... the three main symbolic forms.... In a state of tremendous ectasy... In the process of creating my own room acoustic i lived through this "mushroom" or ectasy state listening music through my listenings experiments.... My deepest respect and salutation.... « If all is a miraculous revelation in this room, where is the place of my wife please? »-Groucho Marx 🤓 |
What are the differences
between programmed computers and programmed people? Enormous.... Infinite difference to say it clearly... Machine cannot choose to be programmed by this or those person, they could never either choose the program content...A man choose the programmer and the program content , if he cannot choose his country or his family he can also reprogram himself or chose an other "father" or an other "language"... We can "program" ourself or saying it in a better way, we may reorient our attention and consciousness to perceive WHOLE and INTERNAL TOTALITY not only external one and external parts... This is the "natural" pathway.....Goethe call the perception of the whole : Truth or Beauty...Or Nature... Goethe would have never fall for the transhumanist tactic to erase nature or to blur the distinction between artificial and natural....What we see behind the world actual crisis if you pay attention.... Can all
statements be put in ’’ s is P’’ (subject IS predicate) sentence
form? It depend of what you call a statement precisely ... your definition of statement mimic a procustean bed...And procustean method is a bad joke for sure not a method....but you already know that no? But language is deeper than proposition statement or logical calculus...Language convey and express multidimensional human experiences... Read about metaphors....You will learn that you have never understood what a metaphor is ever...It is normal, metaphor processing reflect the deeper mechanism of the mind... ALL LANGUAGE IS METAPHORICAL STRATA...Not propositional strata at all, save at the mere surface... Read about creative imagination and perception... I will propose an exercise for you: Read about the limit and power of language in apophatic and cataphatic Theology East and west , after that think about the deep Cantorian analogy between the idea of set and the way it relate to Spiritual Theology for example, if you want to practice language power of expression and limitations.... And if you think all i just said is superficial read what Kurt Goedel has to say about it....And say to him if you dare that he is a bad reader of Frege and Quine....😁 You can also practice the "yoga" of attention by reading the Goethe treatise about plant... I will let you choose what stir your pot the best, numbers, geometry or living organism... You could also pick acoustic and think how to figure out for yourself how the sound "lives" in your own particular room....Experiencing then not dead equations through a computer but miraculous physico-psychical phenomena... Not S is P but living metaphor call "music".... In all these contemplation proposition S is P is useless... I recommend to make the matter straight the 2 greatest books about mathematical creativity and spiritual experience ever written : Alexander Grothendieck : "The key of dreams" and "Harvests and sowings", 2,000 pages long... No trace of Frege here or Quine... 😁i read them... I suppose that you know already that Grothendieck is a genius only in the same league of the like of Poincaré and Ramanujan.... Not many other one... But these books exist only in french it is the catch....😁😊 |
It is not difficult to understand that if you plays suddenly Mozart in a jail speakers you will create aggressive reactions in inmates unused to accomodate "feelings" and unable to entertain them anyway in their survival jungle...
Samething in a thread where the OP think about philosophical matters with people offended by their unability to understand ...
I welcome him even if i am not on the same boat for philosophy...
Anyway are we not supposed to become friends here not foes mainly ?
Or is it only for cables lovers here?
This is a thread among many other threads in the audiogon forum here.... Pick the one thread you will prefer without insulting people because they use other part of their brain....
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Watts is good, but even he cannot convey the nature of reality in less than a minute. Very good video from Watts thanks.... Watts was able to communicate to all the consciousness feeling unity "sensation"... It is enough to do so....Most academic philosophers could not do that.... Watts is a Lao Tse for taxi driver....I was one younger and i read his books particularly about zen.... 😊 |
Music is inside us not only outside us....
I can accept that. So the recording would spark the music within us. In what sense can it be said that music is within us? Perhaps, as we are what we eat, we are also what we hear (have heard). Though it is also said that musical attunement is innate with humans. So maybe true in two independent ways. You are completely right also here... I wll not add anything...save that animals attend music in their own way... Music and sounds are "metabolic" phenomenon also.... They are not only internal for the mind but also for the body metabolism because music and sounds modify it...Then music and sound are internal and external in two different ways... My deepest respect to you.... |
What a bunch of useless navel gazing and a terrible waste of time.
You remind me of the school yard limited bullies who did not understand anything save the end of their gaze... You are free to pick another thread about cables anywhere here instead of insulting people... |
This post doesn’t belong on an audio forum, so I should just resist the temptation of weighing in. But I can’t.
First, Quine’s point (in "Ontological Relativity," from which comes the "Gavagai" coinage), as well as in several other places, is just that our best scientific theories should govern our ontology. This is a fancy way of saying that if an accepted and useful scientific theory demands that we regard a given theoretical construct as "real," then we should do so. As David Lewis put it, although "sets" were "unknown to Homo javanensis," they are nevertheless indispensable in modern mathematics and therefore should be regarded as "real." This question dates at least to Plato, for whom numbers were more "real" than the things of perception they enumerated, being pure intelligible entities not subject to perspective, change over time, and so forth. Which is to say that, although they proclaim themselves to be "empiricists," Quine, et al., are really committed to idealism—to the "reality" of non-empirical theoretical entities.
This insight dovetails with what I think mahgister was trying to say in citing Goethe. But Goethe’s view just follows Kant: the "real" is always already a construct of consciousness—of perception, which is sense information processed and interpreted by the mind. The real "in itself" is simply unknowable. Thus, Goethe says that perception is already "theoretical": "Alles vergängliche / Ist nur ein Gleichnis." This insight makes it exceedingly difficult to know where to draw the lines between the "real" and the "imaginary"; in effect, the real IS what "imagination" constructs for experience. But that is NOT to say there is no independent reality "in itself"; rather, we just don’t know anything about it except insofar as we experience it (that is, insofar as it becomes mental).
Great post thanks... It feel good to be understood sometimes here.... For your remark about where we "drew the line between the real and the imaginary" everybody must read the greatest underestimated Goethean Scholar which is Cassirer and his "symbolic forms" books....Cassirer born a Kantian pupil become a Goethean reader all of his life....And remember that Goethe was a Spinoza admirer.... My deepest respects... |
I listen music now at least not sounds -- Mahgister
If you are not attending a live performance or hearing a live stream of a performance, then you are not listening to music, you are listening to recordings.
You are "technically" right...Completely right... But being right here is not enough... Music is inside us not only outside us.... |
Anybody who read about logic know Frege drama...
And Quine ’s meaning defense theory againt the referential behavioristic theory is not the most sophisticated metaphysic there is in history... 😁 It takes not much time to figure it out... Try to figure out Charles Sanders Peirce in one hour ? 😁😊Or the 13 century polimath genius Raimon Lulle the founder of combinatoric tree feed back calculus in the understanding of Norbert Wiener... Than so much for Frege and Quine....
Then if you want to brag about erudition pick an unknown extraordinary genius: Lucian Blaga for example and why not the polymath Hoene Wronski ? Or Simon L. Frank? I am sure that you dont even know their name...
Like some says this is an " exercise in academic vanity"...
But like another rightfully observe it is entertaining more than insults about politics...
Then welcome to the OP humor and erudition... I apologize for my answers but you do brag first about 2 "little" academic philosophers, Quine and Frege....I prefer non academic giants...
I myself are not a scientist, but i study mathematic and philosophy, some linguistic and poetry and other things i dare not to mention here... I am more able to related things than to concentrate on one only forever...For example i figure for myself the link between acoustic and audio by creating my own mechanical equalizer... So much for audio.... I listen music now at least not sounds...I will not go forever with branded names audio cult... I prefer basics here....
I am neither atheist nor a narrow believer...
Consciousness is too mysterious and evident to be reduced to materialism rant....
And way before "gavagai" there is the silent tree of symbolic forms and activities, of which language is one branch....
Then no metaphysic based on dying nominalism and on technological religion could satisfy me...
The idolatry of technology is not science but the theater on which plays the actual drama, which roots are in a spiritual battle for humanity soul... Dont take my point to be a religious one, you will miss it completely...Science is related and intertwined with technological history, but consciousness is NOT knowledge like some transhumanist want you to think of...Or like the scientist Goethe the real father of phenomenology remind us....
Instead of reading Frege i will suggest any Russian philosopher totally unknown in the US...This will be a remedy for any anglo saxon student.... 😁😊
But if you stick at all cost to english language try Whitehead....He forgot to be stupid to say the least....
Or a Serbo-croat german thinker : Rudolf steiner will do the job...
My best to all....
"All geniuses sees the same light, only moles seek their own tunnel for comfort"- Anonymus Smith |
It is easy to claim common place fact like unicorn dont exist but Higgs boson exist by the proven construct of Cern detector... And very easy to say common place fact like: "One should discriminate between talking about language (aka ’’meaning’’) and extra linguistic reality." Typical second rate nominalism will not be enough though.... (If you cant understand Goethe try Charles Sanders Peirce to understand why nominalism is not enough) Man is not a "tabula rasa" as think people like behaviorists Skinner or Quine when they speak of language acquisition... Cassirer explain very deeply after Buhler why symbolic competence is behind consciousness speech act and any human activity ... I suggest Chomsky to correct your Quinean view of language, if Peirce, Buhler, or Cassirer are too "heavy" for you ... For example : P.Swiggers: "How Chomsky skinned Quine" "BTW the lack of knowledge by ’’some’’ members is disturbing. " Perhaps it is my posts which pointed toward something that is not "common place" and trivial fact like yours... Perhaps it is you who dont understand them at all.... Because for example language cannot be understood only by this childish evident distinction between external meaning and an external object... Study one of the greatest linguist of the century : Gustave Guillaume...If you dont read french try Karl Buhler... Perhaps there is also something called " consciousness" which is not the product of matter or linguistic playing.... Read Goethe and learn about it....If you dont understand Goethe try Husserl Or Cassirer... I will be here to help you... I will recommend to you a physicist who wrote many books about Goethe because instead of insulting people about their alleged ignorance i prefer to help them... Henry Bortoft.... |
I think there is a lot of drunk posting on this one.
I am always drunk when i listen to music, and i always listen music when i post here.... 😊 |
From SEP, Quine entry: "What entities we ought to commit ourselves to depends on a prior descriptive account of what entities theories are committed to True for sure... But there is a deeper layer behind this experience meaningfully refered to and described by Quine...which is the basis of human technological and discursive activities in the wide meaning of the word technological... There is an ultimate goethean layer: Goethe stated: "One should not see anything further behind the phenomena: they themselves are the theory." Here phenomena are no more an external affair, but an internal affair of our own consciiousness...A slight change in our consciousness... A change without any discursive expression yet... An experience...Not a logical proposition, perhaps a metaphor though... " What there is" lies out of an unbeknown window...But metaphors related what is inside and outside the window...Metaphor are pre-logical discourse....Poetry on an ontological footing... They express a way of seeing not a discourse....Metaphor express change in the eye and in the window and in what lies before us... «Metaphors speak in spite of us »-Anonymus Smith |
I doubt Geoff could be replaced...But i know what you means...
I like him also if you talk about the OP.... |
Are all of you high? Don’t hide it,let’s divide it!!!! It is the "mana" coming from the sky at the "end of times" for those who own eyes that could "eat" it... «Is the fact that your eyes could eat made your toungue able to see? Or is it the reverse?»- Groucho Marx 🤓 «It is called cenesthesia brother , are you deaf?»-Harpo Marx |
don’t think i would assume he hasn’t “ read “…. x I am sure he know Cassirer and even read it in german , why assuming the opposite from a reader of Quine who speak 4 languages ? I only challenge his understanding of the opposition between religion and science...And i dont read german by the way....😁😊 |
Incredible thread!
I dont even know what to think....
welcome....And indeed thanks to you for being so entertaining...
I will only suggest to you to read Cassirer and not only his school master Kant but his spirit mentor Goethe, instead of Frege or Quine.... 😊
It is a bit more enlightening and less boring...
By the way i am no more atheist than believer in religious faith... They ressemble much each other like ennemy brothers... Spiritual i am for sure....
It is a bit more enlightening and less boring also...
My best to you.... |
