Ohm Walsh Micro Talls: who's actually heard 'em?
ALways go one step at a time and take time to assess before taking the next. You will be well set with amp, DAC and speakers once you make the decision on the speaks. Do everything you can to get the Peachtree and OHMs dialed in as perfectly as possible using your available digital sources. Then assess for a while and see what if anything else is needed. Then once you have a good reference based on the digital sources, which you are much better positioned with than with the vinyl at present I am fairly certain, you can focus on the vinyl as needed. |
"Anyone here ever listen to any of these records on their Walshes?" Mine tend to bring out the best of whatever there is in the recording. I have Abbey Road and both Radioheads. Both are treats in different ways. Those two Radiohead CDs are two very good challenge CDs for any rig. With the right amp and a good source feed, the OHMs can blow the roof off. I have the BEck also but do not recall details as well but I believe it to be mostly a pretty good recording also. I think I have the Massive Attack. Will need to check. Not sure about the sound quality on that one offhand. I have other Beach Boys CDs with songs from PS but not PS proper. You should be in for a treat. On my current rig, those sound far and beyond way better than what I had recalled prior. Lots of good audio candy in there! |
"What do the MWTs most resemble as far as headphone brand/style?" Probably the more neutral sounding ones with flatter frequency response, which I have seen several models of the brands you mention have been measured to achieve. But its is really hard to compare speakers to headphones because they are so different. Room acoustics play a big part usually with speakers but not with headphones. OHMs are bottom ported and most I have heard with no bottom plinth can interact strongly with floors, especially those in upper levels built with plywood as is typical in most homes. I use a slate tile under each of my 100s to tame that in my second system where it occurs. The 1000 series OHMs all have the solid wood plinth below which I think is a good thing to help inherently tame that. I have always found many smooth and hard roon surfaces, hard wood flooring in particular to be quite lively and echo prone and harder to tame in general in regards to the room acoustics with most any speaker. In these cases, I think less, ie a smaller speaker like the Micros, can be more. |
I bought my first Walsh 2s in 1982. Circa 1986 or so, when I got a real job and some money, I started a fling with Magnepans and kept both until about 3 years ago. I also added a pair of B&W P6s and Triangle Titus along the way in that my house is wired for audio in multiple rooms. The Maggies were kings until about three years ago when I got upgrade fever again. The Maggies and Walsh 2s were both 20 years old + by then. I sampled everything at all price points. Read some reviews of the latest OHMs and decided to try them. The rest is history. Others sound nice but the OHMs sound like music and rule. If that makes you feel any better. Hey even Christy Brinkley's husband was not satisfied. Go figure! There are always plenty of fish in the sea. |
The OHM is a unique design due largely to its use of the wave bending wide range Walsh driver. The omni presentation combined with ability to be placed relatively close to walls if needed is probably the most unique feature. Second is the wide range omni Walsh driver covers most of the audio range where music occurs with one driver. That results in a highly coherent room filling sound that is distinctive. It will not sound like any other speaker exactly. Few speakers sound exactly alike so a choice based on preference must be made. More so with the OHM because it is so unique. Audio is all about making choices that best suit your needs. The thing with the OHMs is that if you like what it does, there is really not much else out there like it to choose from. Decware has a speaker at a good price point that appears somewhat similar. THat is about it. There are other omnis and other speakers that use Walsh driver technology but those cost a lot more. |
Joefish nailed it! At first its largely about getting the right "focus" and allowing initial break in. Once it sounds as Joe describes, then you assess what tweaks if any might be applied upstream to take things to a higher level. I've found once dialed in that the OHMs will respond to most all common tweak types that knowledgeable listeners might recommend. That can be anything from maxing out performance with the amp, tweaking the sound via a pre-amp, or even via ICs, cleaner power, etc. |
Well, my kids have an xbox and Wii between them but neither hooked up to my audio systems or OHMs. I have played various sound effects available via Squeezebox Touch off the internet and gotta say sound effects that you might be familiar with in nature or society make for some very interesting reference sound sources. My bigger OHM 5s (only ones I have tried) ace the test in this regard. Locomotives sound like locomotives. Thunderstorms like Thunderstorms. Birds like birds. running water like running water. With eyes closed, I'd venture to say it was hard to tell the difference, even at seemingly fairly realistic volumes. Its a real eye/ear opener. Micros are much smaller but I would expect fairly similar performance is possible at least in a smaller room. Hold tight. I hope things can live up to the high expectations! |
"I find that I forget about right speaker/left speaker as it becomes completely irrelevant." To take that a bit further, once dialed in the physical location of the speakers may be totally disassociated with the soundstage and location of things in it. My 5s are in a decent sized L shaped room skewed to the left to fire mainly into the long dimension, about 5 feet from the rear wall. I sit at various locations within the long part of the room to listen anywhere from nearfield to ~ 15 feet back or so. When closer to the speakers, I can see the side wall all the way to the left in the short dimension. The further back I sit, I see less of the left hand portion of the rear wall, until about 7 feet back or so I only see the long length and the listening area becomes essentially a rectangle. Despite the OHMs location being skewed well to the left of center of the short dimension to face into the long, the soundstage is generally symetrical with the width of the short length I can see. When close to the speakers, the center of the image can be essentially to the right of the speaker on that side. Listening from further back, the soundstage becomes more symetrical around the speakers and less wide. Where I sit makes a big difference in soundstage width and where the center of the soundstage actually is. I mention this because I have found if you are used to listening to speakers, and expecting the sound to come mostly from where they are located, it can be disorienting and what you hear suffers. ONce the OHMs and your listening habits adjust and are locked in, it is golden. |
Bondman, Have you ever heard your buddy's system? I wonder what it is like? I could make the same observation about my OHMs versus my Dynaudios which both are run off my system concurrently in different rooms. The Dyn's always seem at least a touch "hotter" in the midrange no matter what. Yet both probably measure fairly similarly flat in that area though likely not exactly the same. I doubt there is any significant measurable difference though there is little chance of mistaking one for the other typically I would say. |
Also I belive a Gundry dip refers to a dip in the 2-4 khz area with which I read some BBC monitors/speakers in particular are associated. Most speakers have crossover points somewhere in there as well but the OHMs crossover a fair bit higher, so it is an area where I expect a lot of subtle differences among speakers can be heard. |
"My opinion is with the Ohm's, the more power-as long as it is good clean power and you are not overdriving your amp, the better." This is true though for smaller rooms it can become overkill at some point sooner. Look at power in reserve with the OHMs as your insurance policy to help rise to any occasion as needed. Current delivery is key even for lower power amps with even the smaller OHMs, which will generally go into smaller rooms and require less power to go loud in relation. Expect amps capable of delivering more current at any particular power rating to fair better in general. For Class A or A/B amps, this usually translates into more size and weight. The exception is Class D amps, which I use and can recommend highly with the OHMs for outstanding performance in a smaller and perhaps less expensive package. |
"How would these compare to DecWare ERR Radials? Are there other similar designs out there?" Have not heard the DECWares to compare but from what I read, the design seems closest to some of the smaller OHM Walsh CLS perhaps as anything I have seen. They do not mention using Walsh technology or applying a wave bending approach, but the driver configuration appears similar to OHM CLS/Walsh. The OHMs appear to be designed by default (custom mods can be requested) to work better closer to walls perhaps. |
BAtch, Having cut my teeth pairing OHMs and other speakers with many vintage receivers years ago at Tech Hifi, I think you can do a lot better soundwise with the new OHMs than you can with any vintage receiver. SIngle unit receivers generally have to compromise on power supplies and current delivery in order to work well. They are at the far end of the spectrum from what will work best. Not that it won't sound good, just not likely to max out what the OHMs can do. A good integrated is likely better but I would recommend even a separate power amp or even monoblocks in general for best results if possible. I'd look at some of the less expensive Class D amps as a great place to start, perhaps even used. |
Regarding using tube amps, yes, many report good results with tube amps. In many cases, I think people with tube amps also use separate powered subwoofers to offload the heavy power requirements for the low end from the tube amp so it is better able to work its magic elsewhere. Its surely a personal preference/taste type thing also to some extent, but personally I believe one would need a fairly heft tube amp indeed to power at least the larger OHMs to their maximum potential solo. |
I can also recommend the TAD 125 Hibachi monoblocks to make the OHMs sing more along the lines of a tube amp. These can come in used on Agon for well under $1000 a pair and are a fantastic bargain. The only caveat is that TAD shut down operations recently and the owner who had a sterling reputation for his designs and customer service unfortunately passed away recently as well, so any servicing down the road would have to be done elsewhere. But that should help assure very favorable used prices for those interested. |
Moth my current OHMs sounded totally foreign to me when I first hooked them up despite having owned Walsh 2s for years. The thought that they sounded like crap at first listen probably crossed my mind. It's a combo of the speakers breaking in and your ears adapting to listening to music in a totally different way. Hang in there and tweak as needed! You will either make the transition or not. I suppose that's one reason why John offers such a favorably long audition period. |
THe thing is, I have yet to hear the OHMs run out of gas at any volume one might listen to. The amp seems to practically always be the bottleneck first. Even my current 500w/ch CLass D amps cannot seem to phase my larger OHM 5s or even my smaller 100s when used with those practically. I used my 180w/ch TAD 125 Hibachi monoblocks as a substitute in my main rig when one of my BCs was out for repair recently. They did very well particularly at low to moderate volumes, but could not deliver quite to the same level at the higher volumes. I'm using the TADs now in my second system with my 100s only (also with a sub) and the sound is quite exceptional in my large family room/kitchen area, even if not quite up to par technically at very high levels with the BCs and 5s in comparison. |
I would really like to hear the OHMs on a SOTA high power tube amp but am probably not brave (or rich) enough to own such a rig myself and I really can't fault the sound with a good SS amp behind it. Modern high quality Class D amps and OHMs practically are a match made in heaven I would say. Definitely a case of innovations in technology helping to push the edge further than practical prior. |
I acquired my 100S3's second hand first as a test. THese may have been somewhat broken in by the prior owner but nit certain. Totally foreign sound at first listen. Then I gradually got tuned in and tweaked. Based on that, then eventually I bought the 5S3s from OHM as my new cornerstone speakers. My ears were adapted more somewhat but it still took several months for these to really break-in I would say. Then I changed pre-amp, amp and tweaked ICs and setup as needed. It's been dialed in now for well over a year, going on two, and I am hesitant to change or touch a thing! Sometimes, the smallest thing can lead to a whole new sequence of tweaks/changes. I hate that when things are finally sounding just the way you want them too! |
Batch, I am familiar with the Walsh 2 upgrade process but never been through it. Doesn't sound too bad again if one is comfortable with ripping out teh old boards in the base and working a glue gun. I did the glue gun bit once on my old Walsh 2s to reattach some internal braces that had become detached over the years. Not too bad! Don't have 1000 series but I suspect full breakin could take up to weeks/months depending on usage levels and volumes applied. I have always wondered about adding/subtracting/rearranging damping material used internally on the Walshes as an easy tweak to try if needed, but have never spent time experimenting extensively. Might be worth it for some that might feel their OHMs are over or under damped in their application. |
Tex, Yes, those are an interesting approach to a point source/wide dispersion/omni type design! I would only point out that they do not appear to make any use of Walsh driver technology though, so they can't "out-Walsh" anything in that sense, for what its worth. AN interesting design and maybe a very good value as well though. I would like to hear those. |
Rbf, In general, listen for any audible signs of distortion or breakup usually due to amp clipping. When an amp clips, distortion will start to become audible during louder musical peaks and upping the volume further results in more distortion than increased volume as expected. I have never been able to overdrive any OHMs I have owned and get them to breakup otherwise. I suppose it is possible with a larger amp on a smaller OHM like a MWT. I doubt a Peachtree Nove would overdrive any OHM Walsh, so clipping as I described above is the thing most likely to watch out for. |
Rbf, For rock/prog/metal music at louder, real life type volumes, clipping is quite common with many amp/speaker combos. It comes into play gradually as volume goes up. If it is noticeable with the Nova/OHM combo, there are two possible solutions. A more powerful/beefier amp for use with the OHMS or more efficient speakers for use with the Nova. My recommendation for the best end results for that kind of music assuming one likes what the OHMs can do in general at lower to moderate volume before clipping might become a factor would be to get the biggest, beefiest amp possible for the OHMs. Class D amps can do this effectively in a smaller lighter package than other types if needed. That is how I ended up where I am today to max out performance of my big OHM 5s. Smaller OHMS in smaller rooms will be less demanding of the amplification. |
Batch, Glad things are working out. Carja, HArd to say. I'm an older guy too (52) and leaned towards vinyl as well until I went with a NEtwork Music Player (first Roku SOundbridge, now Squeezebox TOuch) + music server. Now I spend most of my time with the Touch/music server. I still have a lot of records that I would love to listen to if I had the time to muck with records but I have a huge backlog of things to listen to on my music server alone that will take me a long time to get through, so I only on occasion spin the vinyl when I get the urge. I do tend to lean towards the vinyl for older vintage recordings and classical music in general but I also listen to a lot of newer stuff these days so that makes a difference. |
Rb, I use my 100S3s in my two channel a/v system for A/V. Speaker position is key to get a clean center channel image with 2 OHM mains in lieu of an actual center channel speaker. The speakers may need to be closer together and/or further out from the wall. Other items/obstacles nearby may have an effect on the reflected sound including a the tv in between. It all depends. More description/pictures of your setup would make it easier to help troubleshoot. |
rbf, my setup as pictured Here had similar issues when first set up as in the picture. Moving the OHMs forward 6-12 inches and moving the TV back to the rear of the table so that there was more distance to both TV and walls behind resolved the issue for me. |
RBF, If you play a mono recording, and sit in front of the OHMs, where does the sound appear to come from? I find the center of the OHM soundstage tends to be the center of the rear wall behind them which may not be the same as the center between the speakers where the TV is when the speaker location is skewed to the right or left of center. Yours appear to be skewed significantly left, so it would not surprise me if the center of teh soundstage as you would hear with a mono recording is skewed to the right of teh TV location between the speakers. The TV may need to be more in the middle of the rear wall for it to work. Also, if you listen from to the left or right in front of the speakers, the soundstage and its center will likely shift to the right and left accordingly as opposed to sitting dead center. |
Agree with Z that very lively room is a challenge with most any speakers, omni/OHMs included. If you hear a reverb effect/echo when speaking or clapping in general, that is usually something worth addressing with the room acoustics. Rug under and/or in front of speakers, wall furnishings or treatments at primary rear wall reflection points for your main listening position, windows treatments, other wall adornments to break up flat surfaces, furniture and other decorative items, plants, can all help. Keep this in mind as the room decor evolves over time. Be creative and experiment along the way. |
Large flat panel TVs between speakers probably never helps but is not necessarily a major issue either I find, though I think it certainly can be depending on placement relative to tv, rear walls, and any other large obstructions that will tend to reflect sound, like the tall cabinets in my 2 channel a/v system. They serve a purpose so they stay but if this were my main system tuned to the max, they would have to go and the flat screen would probably have to go on the wall rather than on the table in between and behind the speakers. |
"An issue I still can't get past is that from album to album, artist to artist, the volume of bass will vary hugely. " That's inherent largely in recordings. Each recording usually requires unique processing in order to get all to sound a certain way. There is no single or easy solution. Pursuit of this will likely be time consuming at a minimum and fruitless at worst. Recordings are what they are, not what people might want them to be. I shoot to avoid too much, fat or inarticulate bass with any recordings, even the most bass heavy ones. THen the rest will fall in line as best possible and usually quite well from there bass-wise. A sub can help but can also be quite hard sometimes to blend in by ear. Patience and good ears are needed! |
I good "training" exercise is to go to a local high end audio dealer that you might be interested in doing business with and ask to listen to a variety of recordings on their biggest best system. That can help give you a frame of reference for what different recordings really sound like and what can be expected. Many never achieve the goal of having realistic expectations in regards to how specific recordings actually sound. Most all recordings are different and inherently sound different, although over the long term with experience you might be able to put them into some general categories that work in regards to how different types of recordings sound in general. Expectations that are not realistic will doom anyone every time. One thing I can say with confidence, is that when set up well and with the right gear behind them driving, the OHMs themselves should never be the bottleneck in regards to getting the best possible bass in all cases. They can take almost anything you throw at them to a greater extent than most any other speaker in their price range I am familiar with. |
FWIW, I have read reviews from MWT owners that indicate bass levels is not a problem even in larger rooms. Certain recordings that plumb the lowest octaves and do it well benefit most from adding a sub. A good pipe organ recording is a typical case. For a lot of popular and mainstream rock recordings, a sub may not do much in terms of delivering more bass that is also "clean". Its contribution will certainly be less in most cases. I use an old M&K sub with my OHM 100S3s in my large family room/kitchen area. The 100s are somewhere between 1000s and 2000s in size as I recall. All are larger than MWTs. The sub is set at a very low level and crossed over as low as possible with that sub, at around 40-50hz or so. The level setting is quite minimal, around 1 or 2 out of ten. I could probably live without it 98% of the time. |
One other thing worth noting with all OHM Walshes and bass is that they are all bottom ported and can interact with the common wood particle board floors used in many modern homes including mine in ways that strongly affect the bass. In my case with the 100s, that sit on the 4 factory installed wooden feet, I find the bass a tad "boomy" when sitting directly on the thin carpet 2nd level particle board floor. There is some resonance that occurs. This could vary home by home, room by room, but having owned OHM Walshes in one form or another since 1981 I would say it is typical. I solve the problem in my case by placing each ohm on a 12'X 12" ceramic tile from home depot. This provide just the right amount of additional dampening in my case. My much larger OHM 5s are on the factory provided castors (great for tweaking location easily) and on the first level and sit direct on the house's thinly carpeted concrete foundation. Floor interactions from the bottom ports there are a non issue and the bass there is reference standard quality in my assessment. |
The damping factor of the amplifier used is another thing that can strongly affect how the bass sounds. I like the highest damping factor possible with mine. My Bel Canto ref1000m amps have 1000 damping factor and the bass is deep, full and articulate, just right! My TAB 125 Hibachi's have somewhat lower damping. WIth that, the bass is just a tad not as "tight". SOme bass fans may like that and some may not. It's a judgement call for the most part I would say. I find damping factor still matters with my smaller 100S3s, but less so. The TADs sound just right with those. In general, I would estimate any good SS amp, 80 watts/ch or higher with damping of 50 or higher should be a good candidate to drive MWTs. More power up to 250 w/ch or so might benefit bass as well, in particular at higher listening volumes. |
Jwc, Can I assume your OHMs are original Walsh 2s from the 80s with the first generation CLS drivers (ie not newer or updated drivers on Walsh 2 cabinets)? I had original Walsh 2s for over 25 years prior to my current OHMs with the 3rd generation CLS drivers (the X00 series 3 drivers). The current line is the 4th generation X000 series drivers. The "cans" on all these look similar. My gen 1 OHM Walsh 2 CLS driver cans had the word OHM Stamped into the mesh. Newer models do not. Also gen 1 drivers had crossover board mounted in the base of the cabinets with level adjustments on the bottom. Gen 2 and newer have all driver components including crossover mounted in the "can". All OHM Walsh speakers I have heard tend to have a laid back presentation in most rooms with most of the soundstage at or behind the speakers. My gen 1 Walsh 2s perhaps most so. Also with original gen 1 Walsh 2s, soundstage size, imaging accuracy and overall detail was a notch behind what one expects with most modern speakers including newer OHM Walshes. Walsh 2s can easily work well (within their limits mentioned above) in a larger room. I once had them cranked to teh max outdoors and they delivered the goods to those listening in a field about 30 yards or so away. Going loud is not a problem if drivers are still in good shape and low end extension is pretty good. I use my smaller gen 3 "Super" Walsh 2s (100series 3 drivers mounted in Walsh 2 cabinets in a similar large family room/kitchen area. I happen to have a sub in that room also but for most things it really does not add much. |
