Martykl,
That little Bel Canto S300 looks like a winner, and I've seen a couple of them go on A'gon for around $1000. I'll check back daily and see if one comes up here at a good price.
Mapman,
Separates may be the way to go, ultimately, but I don't think I have the budget for them at this time. :-( |
Hmmmm....
Maybe I can take back that last comment about not being able to afford separates. I see, for example, plenty of used, tube preamps on Audiogon for not a lot of money... many under $700. What makes and models would you folks recommend keeping an eye out for in the used, tube preamp arena? |
Bondmanp,
I like hearing Sheryl Crow on my 100's, too. Some of the tunes on her greatest hits CD sound wonderful there -- and I know what you mean about the engineers using "phasey" tricks to get the sound to do dramatic things. The bongos on "Every Day Is A Winding Road" sound especially great. :-) |
My left speaker rocks a little... I can't tell if it's an inconsistency in the hardwood floor, or if the bottom plinth of the speaker isn't quite flat. In any case, a couple of judiciously placed, folded pieces of paper seems to do the trick.'
Bondmanp,
I got to listen to some Sade on vinyl this morning: "Is It A Crime" and "War Of The Hearts." I was enchanted, especially by the latter. Don't know if it's that the speakers are finally really broken in, or if I've really nailed the placement thing, but man! The room was totally energized in that distinctive "Ohm way," I was hearing all this detail and depth. Enchanting is the best word I can come up with. I listened so long I was late for work. Oops! |
Hey, Guys,
Somebody's currently got a Bel Canto Design EVo 200.2 power amp on sale here for $650 OBO. It's got fabulous reviews all over the 'Net. What do you guys think of that as a foundation for use with the Ohm's? Hurry!!!!!! |
Hey Guys,
I took the plunge! I'll be selling the Unico integrated amp on Audiogon and I bought a new-in-box Bel Canto S300 power amp here at a great price. :-)
By the way, John Strohbeen (I called today) said that his rule is "the more power the better, which is not the same as 'the louder the better.'" :-) He also said that in order to hear a real difference, he recommended tripling the wattage into 6 ohms from where you are now. So, in my case, with an amp that puts out 80 watts into 8 ohms, I'd want an amp that does around 240 watts into 6 ohms. The S300, at around 225 watts/channel at 6 ohms should do it.
Now I'll need a pre-amp in the $500 to $700 (used) range. Any suggestions regarding what I should be on the lookout for will be welcome. Tubes? SS? What do you think?
Bondmanp,
Ditto what others have said about the Walsh treble. I'm not sure exactly how many hours my 100's have on them, but after 6-8 months of ownership, they're really starting to bloom beautifully, and the highs sound anything but recessed... "just right" would be more like it. I'm very pleased! |
Mapman,
Thanks for the advice. From what I've seen so far, those preamp brands will bust my budget, but I'll keep an eye out.
The S300 was kind of a steal (by the crazy standards of high-end audio): 1/2 off retail, new in box! |
Yeah... I saw on Audio Asylum a thread on "good preamps for the Bel Canto S300," which seemed to include some tube preamp suggestions, so I'll try and calm down, now.
The Unico sold in just over a day, so that bridge is burned... but it will fund the preamp, so I'm okay with it! :-) |
Bondmanp:
Somebody's got a Rogue Metis up for sale at around $700 right now. Any thoughts? |
Rebbe, another "pre-amp" that popped into my mind that might be worth considering is the PeachTree Decco. These can be had for under $500. It is a well reviewed (low power) hybrid integrated with tube DAC actually, but I'm thinking (not sure though) it might be used as a pre-amp only if desired. You would use digital out from your CD player (assuming that exists also) into the Decco. Phono would connect same as any other pre-amp. IF my assumptions are true, themn this would be the least expensive "high end" pre-amp solution I can think of. Now HERE'S an interesting possibility. Peachtree is selling refurbished Deccos for $499. My Music Hall CD 25.2 has a digital (TOSLINK) output and the Decco has a digital input, plus 2 analog inputs... that would make one for my outboard phono stage and one for my tuner. And yes, the Decco has stereo preamp outputs... in fact, I believe the Decco is being used by lots of "audiophile" types as a preamp, ignoring the power amp section altogether. Thoughts? |
Yikes, I'm thinking maybe I made a mistake getting the Bel Canto!
It hasn't arrived yet, and I'm still looking for a tube preamp. But here's the rub: now I see that the Bel Canto S300 has an input impedance of "only" 10K ohms, and everybody seems to say that you'd want the output impedance of the preamp to be "much smaller" (whatever that means) than the input impedance of the power amp. I don't really understand any of this, but can somebody help me, here? Did I blow this purchase? (The folks over in the Amp forum haven't been all that much help, so I turn to you, my Ohm buddies...) |
Marty,
Thanks a lot for the reassurance! :-)
Somebody has a Blue Circle BC21 on 'gon right now at a good price. I called BC and got Gilbert, the designer! (Gotta love small audio companies!) He told me that the impedance matching thing was often "bullsh*t" and that the BC21, with an output impedance of 2.2K ohms, would drive the Bel Canto and anything else I could throw at it.
BTW, it occurred to me later that Blue Circle markets the Penny, an Ohm CLS-based speaker.... so maybe that's a good omen. ;-)
So, there you go. |
Spoke to Matt at Bel Canto today. He says that what's called for is a preamp with an impedance output of between 50 and 100 ohms. At least I have a ballpark figure to look at, now. Question is, is there a tube preamp like that, or will I need to go with SS? Any ideas? |
Everybody,
Thanks for the advice. There's a Manley Shrimp up on A'gon right now. A little pricier than I'd like (and no remote) but output impedance is only 50K ohms, so I'm seriously considering it.
Fascinating discussion, by the way. I've learned a ton from you guys! |
thehungryeye,
Welcome to the wonderful world of Ohm and our monster thread! ;-) |
Okay,
Here are my main choices as I see it:
I can get a Manley Shrimp tube preamp - excellent reviews - for $1100 here on A'gon. It has an output impedance of 50 ohms, good fit for the Bel Canto. And a guy on Audio Asylum is using just this amp/preamp combo and really likes it. Advantage: maybe great sound, and I get to mess with tubes. Disadvantages: a little over my budget, and no remote.
OR: I can snag a Bel Canto Pre3 preamp for $999, plus shipping. Advantages: barely within my budget, aesthetic and acoustic match and remote control, so no getting up and down to adjust volume. Disadvantage: don't get to mess with tubes. :-)
What do you think? Hurry, please! :-) |
I just sent payment for the Manley Shrimp! The reviews for the Pre3/S300 combo are excellent, but the reviews for the Manley Shrimp (by users and reviewers) are ecstatic, and I really did want to try a tube preamp. It'll be a more complex physical setup -- the two Bel Canto pieces would have stacked on top of each other and fit on top of my stereo cabinet. The full width Manley and half-width BC will take some fiddling to place. The only substantial deficit in the new setup will be lack of a volume control, which I can live with if the sound quality is what I think it might be. The Bel Canto arrives today. I'll report back when both pieces are in place and working! :-) |
Bondmanp,
From talking to John Strohbeen, my understanding is that the late-model 100-S3's that I have do use the same supertweeter as the newer X000 series. So maybe I can comment.
My Ohms are sounding very nice these days. Bass is more controlled and highs are clearer and airier. Some of this has to do with having finally found, I think, the best room positioning, which took me quite a bit of fiddling. And some of it, I'm assuming, is break-in. So, for what it's worth, take your time. And yes, John will work very, very hard to keep an existing customer happy. When I had the Micro Walsh'es, and found the highs rolled off, he sent me a set of alternative drivers using a different tweeter configuration. |
Amplifier Update:
Well, the Bel Canto S300 arrived last week, and it has been sitting on top of my component cabinet waiting for the Manley Shrimp to arrive. The Shrimp arrived last Friday, and when I open the box, it turned out that the volume knob had detached from the unit. Federal Express must've given it a pretty good whack somewhere in transit. Anyway, the seller is being extremely helpful and has offered to pay for a trip to our local stereo repair shop to reattach the volume knob and also make sure that no undetected, internal damage took place along the way. Anyway, hopefully, I will have the system up and running before the end of the week and I will report back... |
Hey, everybody,
Well, I finally got all my new electronics set up a few days ago.
I have to say that the combination of the of the Manley Shrimp preamplifier and the Bel Canto S300 power amplifier seems to have a lot of synergy to it. The bass is tight and controlled, midrange frequencies sound very nice, and the highs are light and airy.
I'm wondering, though, if any of you have ever found that a change in your electronics caused you to reposition your speakers.
When I first hooked up the new electronics, I was struck by the increased sense of "texture" in the music, particularly on orchestral works. Violins, for example, sounded "woody" in a way that they hadn't before. And everything had a sense of "air" around it.
But something was kind of missing, and I realized it was that the soundstage that I was used to have kind of collapsed... center fill was still very good, and there was a sense of depth, but that "energized room" that you get with Ohm speakers with the right source material was missing. What fixed it was simply moving the speakers back about 6 inches or so closer to the wall. Everything sprang back into place.
I called John and asked him about this, and he said that he'd never heard of imaging being affected by a change in electronics this way. I'm curious to see what you guys have found in this regard.
In any case, I'm very, very pleased. I think that the speakers have responded very well to the change in electronics, and I'll continue to report back as I have more time to listen. |
Foster_9,
I'm at a loss. This is one for Mapman to figure out! ;-) |
Hey, Dante7 and everyone,
I'm back after Thanksgiving break.
In a word, the new electronics sound glorious! Since I changed so much at once -- both the power amp and the preamp - it's difficult to know what is due to what. But here's what I'm observing so far:
The Ohms sound more like real music than they ever have. I was listening to the opening track of Ingrid Michaelson's "Boys and Girls," and when the guitars kicked in, I had this visceral response: not, "the stereo sounds great," but "wow, there are guitars in the room!" or "it sounds like I'm in a club!" That's an experience I've never had before.
Instruments have a sense of texture and space that I've never heard before. On good orchestral recordings, violins have a "woody" quality, for example.
Good recordings also have more of a 3-dimensional quality than they did before... I don't know how to describe it right now better than that.
I am actually feeling some sympathy right now for professional audio reviewers. It's very hard to verbalize these subjective experiences and observations! What I can say pretty definitively is that the Ohms are singing on a new level with the new gear! :-) |
Bondmanp,
I get the "picking apart" thing... it's natural to do with something this expensive, plus you're acutely aware that you can still get much of your money back (except for shipping those beasties) within your test period. I'm not made of money either!
That said, I've found that the 100's have kept sounding more and more alive as they've broken in. Given that I don't get as much time to listen as I'd like, that's taken much of a year to happen, but it has happened. The Ohms have "opened up" in all sorts of ways. For what it's worth... |
John,
You have always been a gentleman and if this thread has helped you to sell some speakers, then I'm glad! |
Joefish,
I've always been something of a "soundstage addict," myself. I even owned in the 1980's (and still have in a box somewhere) a Carver Sonic Hologram Generator.
The theory was the the C-9 injected a certain amount of out-of-phase info into the output signal, so as to "cancel interaural crosstalk..." precisely, as you say, to create a "headphone" experience through speaker systems.
As I remember, the C-9 had only two control buttons, each with a Hi/Low toggle:
"Injection Ratio" controlled the intensity of the effect.
"Listening Window" controlled the size of the "sweet spot."
The pleasantness or unpleasantness of the C-9 depended heavily on the source material. Some material could sound artificially echoey and weird. Tracks that had voices or instruments panned totally to the left or right channel (think some Beatles tunes, for example) tended to really show off the effect: you'd hear sounds coming from way, way beyond the outer, physical boundaries of the speakers. It was not unlike what you get from the SRS processing in some boom boxes today.
In my setup, the Ohm "holography" is more subtle. It has more to do with retrieval of a sense of ambience, if that makes any sense. And some sounds/ instruments will fill the listening space in a very convincing and pleasing way.
John Strohbeen once said to me that the CLS driver's soundstaging characteristics tended to shine on two very different kinds of recordings: purist, live recordings with minimal miking, and heavily processed studio tracks where the engineer has deliberately manipulated phase artifacts to give the illusion of spaciousness. |
Mamboni,
Very cool. Congratulations! Looking forward to your impressions! |
I was doing some reading here on Audiogon and stumbled on some info about the Von Schweikert VR-2, which is supposedly designed to be extra wide dispersion and also has an adjustable "ambience tweeter" in the rear of the cabinet. Since the design goals seem somewhat similar to the Ohm's, I was wondering whether any of you had heard the them and could offer a comparison. |
Slow thread lately. Any news? |
Listening today to Paul Simon's album "Surprise" once again, with a big smile on my face. It's a partnership with electronica guru Brian Eno. The engineer is someone unfamiliar to me, a guy named Tchad Blake.
Anyway, it's a bass and texture showcase for the Ohm 100's. My favorite moment (one of them, anyway) is during the song "Once Upon A Time There Was An Ocean." About a minute into the song, a big, honking synth bass -- actually two sounds, a higher one, and a subterranean hip-hop kind of note -- comes charging in on the right. It's amazing on the Ohms... makes you want to get up and dance.
:-) |
Thanks for the nice feedback, folks! The system is sounding wonderful, although I'm at a loss to describe exactly what has improved in moving to the new amplification. The music seems more "alive," in general. Instrumental textures are more palpable, individual instruments have more "air" around them, and other things I can't quite articulate in words. But the system has definitely taken a huge leap with the new electronics, proving, I guess, that the Ohm's benefit from better associated gear.
It's also very satisfying that Audiogon has made all this possible. I saved a total of about $1400 on the preamp and amplifier over retail. The power amp was brand-new in an unopened box, at one half off retail -- the only thing I lost is the factory warranty. The preamp was, just as the buyer had claimed, "without a single mark on it," and it's a beautiful piece of equipment. That's another great thing about Audiogon: I have yet to have dealings with anybody here, either as a buyer or a seller, who wasn't a pleasure to deal with. It feels much safer buying here than in the wild and woolly world of eBay, for example. So, here's to AudiogoN, and to the bargains it makes possible. :-) |
Just making note of the fact that we are slowly but surely inching up toward 1000 posts in this thread. I think we need to throw some sort of virtual party online when that happens. Shame we can talk get together over somebody's house and listen to music -- that would be the best. |
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Just a note to say that I'm still amazed by how much the 100's like better amplification. The Manley Shrimp preamp / Bel Canto S300 combo sounds very sweet. I was listening to Donald Fagen's "Goodbye Look" the other day and wow... marimbas everywhere, and you can follow every harmony line in the vocals.
My room is quite lively, though -- hardwood floors, painted drywall and windows, and I wonder how some judiciously placed absorption might benefit things... at least a rug on the floor! |
Guys,
I was waiting for the other shoe to drop when I posted that ad! :-)
I remember Mapman saying a long time ago that some people would "get" the unique Ohm presentation and some wouldn't. After a year and a half of living with the Ohms, I think I may fall into the latter category. Or (and I suspect this is part of it) it may have to do with my room.
In any event, I really got the itch to hear what a good monitor would sound like in my room.
I got a pair of Ascend Sierra 1's on 30 day factory direct audition. They're beautiful to look at and their bamboo cabinets are amazingly inert! The reviews are spectacular but I found the sound nothing special. In particular, the sound never broke free of the boxes.
Then on a whim, I took home a pair of PSB Synchrony Two B speakers from one of our local audio shops. And I mean, literally, my jaw dropped. They sounded so fantastic... Detailed, sweet voices, plenty of bass energy for my room, and they TOTALLY vanished, acoustically. Enormous sound stage and great sense of ambient space, along with pinpoint imaging within the soundstage. I had that "I could listen to these for hours on end" feeling.
So, yes, I put the 100's up for sale.
I think it's important to say that the Ohm line is remarkable! I also want to say that I've loved being a part of this thread and this virtual community. And for every person who has discovered Ohms through this thread -- and for every sale that this thread has generated for John, I feel happy. My decision isn't a judgment on any of your tastes and I wish everybody much pleasure and delight now and in the future from music and this crazy hobby of ours. And I still will be recommending Ohms to other people on Audiogon and elsewhere! |
Ron,
What Mapman said. You can't go wrong with that trial period, and you may find that you really love them! And 90 watts is more than enough power to drive those puppies to very loud volumes in a small-medium sized room. |
Map,
Thanks for sharing and I'm delighted tha the Bel Canto Amps are
floating your boat! I have lesser stuff -- "just" the dual-mono S300, but it (and the Manley pre) really made a lovely difference in the sound of my 100s. Bel Canto is good stuff!
Enjoy!! |
Guys,
Just pointing out that my Ohm Walsh 100's are still up for sale here. A few nibbles but as yet no bites. Thanks... end of advertisement. ;-) |
Just a word of praise for John and the boys at Ohm in terms of the packaging of their speakers. My 100s arrived at their new home on Monday. Fortunately, I had saved all the original packing materials -- and I can tell you that repacking those puppies was not easy! Still, my heart kind of fell when the new owner e-mailed me to say that one of the boxes was seriously roughed up by UPS. But John once told me that he considers their packaging material to be "a sacrificial offering to UPS." Anyway, the 100s are QUINTUPLE boxed at the factory, and between two outermost nested boxes are sheets of plywood. So, in the end, the speakers came through unharmed. Whew! :-) |
Joe,
Good for you! Yes, John does really go the distance for his customers! He once sent me a set of special drivers for my MWT's when I wasn't
so happy with their sound. A great guy to deal with. |
Map,
The LSA1 Statements are due via UPS today! I don't want to pull this thread off topic so when I have them set up and somewhat broken in, I'll report back in a separate thread. |
Ron,
When I had my MWT's (also in a smallish room
with hardwood floors) bass was never an issue, and although I eventually moved away from the omni thing, I remember bass being one of
their strengths, especially for their size. It may be that you're not
used to the sound, or that it's a placement issue, or that as Map says, they don't do their best with tube power amps.
Also, while monitors on the floor would give gobs of bass reinforcement in
comparison to which the Ohms might seem anemic, but I always found the bass to be fast and tuneful-- not window rattling, but balanced.
Talk to John for his advice, too. |
I appreciate the help (and concern- funny, it's like an AA group) you got THAT right! LOL! |
I was using a solid state power amp (Bel Canto S300) with a tube preamp (Manley Shrimp) with my Ohm 100's and it was a sweet combination. Seems a good way to give the Ohms the juice they want with the dimensionality and sweetness of tubes. |
Kristian85,
As the OP in this thread, I found your comments to be pretty condescending, even insulting. "A kid picking petals off a flower?" "Manufacturer-bothering anxiety?" Pretty harsh, don't you think?
I'm not interested in hijacking this excellent and informative thread to engage in a flame war, but I do want to set the record straight. This will be my only post on this matter:
The only thing I'd have done differently throughout my investigation would have been to buy used gear, when possible. It would have saved me some money. Other than that, with no local dealers carrying gear that I wanted to hear in my room, in my system, I don't know how else I'd have learned what worked for me.
There were and are things I loved about the Ohms and it took me a year of living with my 100's to figure out what I was less than pleased with about them. I won't go into that here. But when I borrowed a pair of small, two-way monitors and listened to them in my room, I thought, "Bingo, this is it!" And I've been very pleased with where my system is going since then.
As for manufacturer-bothering, my impression was never anything other than John Strohbeen enjoying talking to customers and trying nearly anything to make them happy. I respect him for that. He's a unique personality and an industry pioneer -- and he certainly has lots of integrity.
Okay, I'm done. |
Yes, thanks for that link. Nice review! |
|
Guys,
Just thought I would point out that as of this moment the thread has 54,000 views! (Okay, 50,000 of them are from me, but that's picky...)
;-) |
Man, those are some really, really good prices. Walsh 100 walnut cabinets with new Walsh 2000 drivers.....................Regularly $2800 Now $1900 Hmmmm, when I had my 100's, I thought John said that they wouldn't take any of the X000-series drivers due to size incompatibilities.... |
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Rbf1138,
Don't take my selling of the Ohms too much to heart. I ultimately decided, I think, that the "omni" presentation of the Ohms wasn't my cup of tea. It may in part be because my room was so "lively" and untreated at the time that it was doing injustice to what the Ohm's can do. I decided that I preferred the "pinpoint" presentation of a more conventional, forward firing speaker. But the MWT's are a steal at their price and you owe it to yourself to try them. |
