" the Woody Herman Band playing songs by Steely Dan (I'm not kidding)"
That sounds awesome!
I'll have to look for that one! |
"The horns and the kick drum particularly come across on the Ohms"
I would agree.
Since going to the ARC tube pre-amp in my system in particular, mid-range, including horns and vocals, and overall dynamics on percussive instruments have taken as major step forward with the OHMs.
I notice it on the Dynaudios as well, but to a lesser extent. |
Marty,
Thanks for the tip on 'Far East Suite".
I need to add more Ellington to my collection.
I have the "The Duke: The Columbia Years" box set that covers a wide range of Ellington stuff from early to later years on that label and it has top notch sound. Even the older cuts have been remastered extremely well and overall the whole set is just pure audio candy on the OHMs that is hard to match.
It's one of my "Desert Island Discs" and perhaps my single favorite jazz title in my collection, but I do not think "Far East Suite" is in there. |
If you're soundstage/imaging seems skewed to one side or the other due to placement and/or room acoustics, try toeing out the OHM on the weak side only to direct more high end energy from the tweet towards your listening area from that side.
That is what I do with my 5's to help balance things out in my listening area in the long area of my very assymetrical L shaped room.
You can see an example of this in the "theBigOhms" photo on my virtual system.
The right F-5 is toed out more than the left to fire more forward than normal so as to balance out the sound stage which otherwise is skewed significantly to the left and extends well into the short length of the L shaped room to the left of the left hand speaker. |
Rebbe, yes that ELP recording is a good one, one of the best I think in that genre.
I noticed John S. had only one other posting and it was today also, so I'm guessing he's a new active poster here. |
Reb,
Your observations are similar to what I observe between 100s and 5s in my larger room.
Don't forget to break out the pipe organ music though..... |
This is what I used:
http://www.amazon.com/Mussorgsky-Pictures-Exhibition-Stravinsky-Petrouchka/dp/B000001QBW
Its hard to find though. I think most organ stuff I have will be.
I'd try a good recording of the "Organ Symphony" by Camille Saint Saens. Maybe somebody can recommend one. It features some low organ notes and is also a nice orchestral piece to boot... a nice piece to test out nice audio pieces with.
|
Marty,
The thing to me that distinguishes the OHMs from many other designs at their particular price point per room size IS their ability to open up and shake the rafters at more realistic listening volumes with little or no fatigue (with proper amplification).
The Walsh CLS driver and all that goes with it is the key to its unique abilities in this area.
They also are competitive in terms of dynamics, detail, imaging etc. in most key aspects of good sound at lower volumes, and of course still have the distinctive, lifelike sound of an omni design, but there are many other speaker designs at various comparable price points that do detail, imaging and other things well also using a more conventional design. Rebbe's Totem Arros are a great example. They do most things except go loud and shake the rafters as well as most anything in a suitably sized room.
Most speaks that can do what the OHM Walshes do at realistic SPLs in their target room size tend to cost a lot more. That is where a lot of the unique value comes in.
Of course, most would also acknowledge that they are champs in regards to size of soundstage, which is also key for enabling the speaks to work all their other forms of magic in terms of air, imaging, dynamics, etc.
These are "muscle speaks" that also have the ability to deliver delicate lines with finesse and detail due to their unique design (the Walsh driver). That's what makes them unique and different from say Quad eletrostats or even other good dynamic designs at similar price points. |
Rebbe,
One other thing regarding break-in is that with the larger drivers, even the 100 to some extent it will break in best if you are able to "crank it up" a bit from time to time to really help "loosen things up".
They will take as much clean power as you can throw at them and still be able to listen comfortably. |
John Strohbeen?
Well, welcome to Audiogon and our favorite thread!
I better be sure I get my facts right now...... |
Know, I'm good thanks!
The image sharpness was not as good on the original Walsh speakers from the 80's and not up to par with more modern designs IMHO. I owned original Walsh 2's for 25 years prior to the two pair of series 3 I own now for comparison.
Unfortunately, I suspect the originals, which were sold in large #'s in various hifi chains back then, are the OHM Walsh speakers that most people have heard and remember.
If your friends speaks are series 3, I'd bet some placement tuning should resolve things. I've never heard series 2, but I suspect it is somewhere in between in that series 3 uses a different tweeter, though my uderstanding is the Walsh driver is the same as series 2. |
Haven't heard Mikado in years, but my first instinct would be to go with the classic D'Oyly Carte performances that were issued on stereo London records box sets back in the 50s or early 60's, I believe. Those are the ones I grew up with. Remastered to CD, if available, would be nice as well I would think. |
Call Ohm and see if they still have any refurbished Super Walsh 2 S3s available, similar to those in my system. These are the nice vintage pyramid shaped cabinets with the 100 series 3 drivers and usually go for around $1300 when available.
|
Check out the OHM site where they list upgrade options for old Walsh speakers to see which models can be upgraded to 100 S3. I think the upgrade itself is around $800.
Then, you might be able to pick up a pair of older OHMs for around $200 that you can upgrade yourself. This is the cheapest way, though it involves you doing the upgrade.
The upgrade (for old Walsh 2's for example) can involve removing old drivers, removing acoustic damping material, prying out the old crossover board in the base, putting a new terminal board in its place using a glue gun, reattaching internal supports if needed using same glue gun, re-inserting acoustic damping material and attaching new drivers. Some older models might be as simple as removing old driver and attaching new to upgrade. You can get the upgrade info for specific models from OHM.
Another option to reduce cost is pick up a pair of old OHMs on ebay that can be traded in for greater value to reduce the end cost of buyng new or refurbished speaks from OHM. OHM will take up to two pair for up to 40% of cost as trade-in I believe. This is what I did to obtain my Walsh 5's.
For this option, you have to make sure the speaks you get for trade-in meet OHMs trade-in requirements regarding condition, and you have to factor in shipping costs both to obtain speaks and ship to OHM for trade-in.
I was able to buy an old pair of C2s on Ebay for just over $100 and have them shipped direct to OHM for trade-in value of $700, for example. Then I also traded in my own old Walsh2s which cost me about $40 to ship to OHM. Together I was able to receive 40% the cost of refurbished F-5s. |
Reb, glad things are getting back to normal!
Yeah, don't forget about break-in. Tvad is watching!
I noticed a pair of low mileage micros for sale here yesterday at a nice discount in case anyone is looking for an extreme bargain. |
Martykl,
I picked up a copy of the remastered "Far East Suite" by Ellington on Ebay recently per your recommendation and was just giving it a listen.
You are right. A fabulous recording. Both exhilarating one moment and sublime the next. A definite showpiece/reference recording, not just in soundstage but in imaging, power, detail, and presence. It doesn't get any better than that! Both the power of the big band and the tonal delicacy of the piano, clarinet and other soloists are on fabulous display.
Thanks for that recommendation!
I need to pick up "Black and Tan" also. Any others? |
"how do the MWT and 100s do on image depth both behind and in front of the speakers?"
Tends to be mostly behind the speakers, though room acoustics and electronics will make a difference. Imaging is very much like full range MBLs that I have heard.
Moving to ARC ap-16 tube pre-amp from Carver SS helped move things a bit more forward in my system.
"Is it difficult to get the speakers to sonically disappear?"
No, certainly not with decent room placement and electronics. They disappear currently about as well as the Triangles Titus 202s in my system, which are champs at disappearing even in lesser systems and significantly better than the Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkIIs I also run.
Haven't heard Vandys enough to comment much but from the little I have heard there are similarities in the openness of the sound of both.
Good electronics makes all the difference with the newer OHMs. You will hear whatever you put through them. I recommend using decent tubed sources and pre-amp along with a good SS amp for most magical results. |
"I agree with Mapman that much of the soundstage presentation takes place behind the speakers, but not entirely. On "The Goodbye Look" from Donald Fagen's "The Nightfly," the percussion, especially the marimba parts, reach out into the room toward you. On "Let's Face The Music And Dance" from Diana Krall's "When I Look In Your Eyes," the piano part also reaches right out into the room."
Yes that can certainly occur with regularity on certain recordings where the stars align.
There is one extended high note Mel Torme hits at the end of a tune on the CD recording of "The Classic Concert" that seems to envelope you from above and behind in my room. I was strtled and jumped up out of my seat the first time I heard it....very surreal! |
Parasound:
Congrats. Keep the thread going and keep us posted on how things work out! |
"101s can create the illusion of 3d space extending into your lap in a way that is, IME, virtually unique (and certainly beyond what I get from my 100s in this regard)"
I've only heard the 111s, not the 101s, so I cannot compare those.
The 111s at least did not extend forward or image in a manner radically different than the OHMs that I could tell, at least in the room I heard them in with the high end MBL electronics and with the source material listened to, both of which were top notch.
MBL 111s list for $34000. OHMS top out at ~ $6000.
101s could be a totally different story. My understanding is that the dynamics on those are at a totally different level than 111s.
My assessment was that the OHM dynamics are at least as good as and perhaps even a bit better than 111s I would say, at least based on my limited exposure to the 111s.
MBL 101s go for over $60000/pair I believe.
There was nothing about the 111s running on tens of thousands of dollars worth of MBL electronics however that made me feel like the OHM 5s, at least, are at a comparative disadvantage in a similar somewhat large listening room.
I went into the MBL demo fully expecting a significant difference in sound based on the design and cost differences but did not hear it, more as result of the prowess of the OHM 5s than any shortcomings of the much more expensive 111s. |
Another outstanding reference recording heard on OHMs notice (off today for Good Friday and time to spin some vinyl not heard in a while):
"I Robot" by Allan Parsons Project on Mobile Fidelity Master LP - yeah baby! Hadn't spun it in a while. Outstanding!
Also "Pyramid" by same APP on standard issue LP, perhaps just a tad behind IR in regards to overall recording merit and sound quality.
Pink Floyd's "Meddle" - nothing to sneeze at either! |
Yeah, I saw that.
A good price if you can pick them up and are truly restored to good working order. That's the tricky part.
Many who loved the original Fs are skeptical at best regarding the CLS design that supplanted them.
The unique thing about them is that they were single driver full range (to 16-17 Khz anyway) and omni-directional.
Thats rarified ground. Pretty much only rebuilt Fs or As and and perhaps one model German Physiks, at most, available these days, as I recall (their horn loaded model).
Their achilles heel was that the driver was easily over-driven and damaged. OHM CLS design eliminated that problem by foregoing the top end with the Walsh driver, but for some that is where the magic was, so they will look elsewhere these days. |
Parasound,
PErhaps to a lesser extant than with most speakers, room acoustics and other factors probably come into play regarding tonal shift from various vertical listening locations.
The Walsh drivers do inherently fire more upwards than down though, I believe. |
Funny!
Parasound, you may be the first to make that assertion about me!
Honestly, though, I am not an easily satisfied person when it comes to the sound of my music.
I do try to keep a level head and be consistent in what I communicate to others on these things. I have been compared (jokingly?) to Mr. Spock on occasion over the years, so I do tend towards the reserved side I suppose.
Many hot chicks dig Spock though, so I never take that comparison negatively! |
Yes, I can vouch that Yes does work well on OHMs!
Try the remastered version of "Drama" for some really awesome Squire bass!
The Yes album, Close to the Edge, and Fragile are very good too. |
These recordings by Yes are very good for separating the contenders from the pretenders in the world of audio playback of rock music.
On a different track genre-wide, try some remastered recordings of largely forgotten old Kingston Trio tunes on the Walsh's and then let's talk.
The one I can recommend if you can find it is "Absolutely The Best Of The Kingston Trio".
"Reverend Mr. Black" (LOVE that tune!), "Scotch and Soda", "Reuben James" and the others are a sterling treat from a different age of music and recordings with stunning sound quality, vocals, and harmonies that are hard to match.
I may have a bias in that some of the first records I ever listened to repeatedly as a young kid were by these guys and they definitely had a major impact on me musically at a young age.
|
"It seems like the Ohm presentation would be quite different, but I wonder if I would like it better than what I have. I guess there's only one way to truly find out..."
Agreed. |
RR,
Just to be clear, the OHMs utilize dynamic drivers as well.
It's the Walsh driver design and concept that make them both unique and different.
Here is a blurb with some background on the Walsh driver concept beyond what you might find on the OHM site:
http://www.hhr-exoticspeakers.com/documents/thelincolnwalshstory.pdf |
Yes, I can typically tell a slight difference in tonal balance when listening for it from a higher listening position above the cabinets (brighter) compared to a lower one. |
1000s?
Are those the latest and greatest 100s? I hadn't seen that these were available yet. |
I like to use the tracks "Season of the Witch" by Donovan as a reference point to get soundstage and imaging focused and bass honed in.
Other tracks on "Donovans Greatest Hits" can then also be used as tests once you tune in using that cut. |
Parasound63,
I think you have the right mindset for how to best locate the OHMs.
You have to play around with different locations, listen and decide what works best for you.
Just avoid location within a foot or two of walls. Some locations will sound great and some just OK, though perhaps few flat out bad.
Also remember to play with toe-out. Toeing the speaks out for more direct effect from the super-tweet can be used to sharpen things up and even compensate for left/right balance issues in some rooms like my L shaped demon. Direct exposure to teh super-tweet will also effectively collapse the sound stage width as well, which may be a positive or negative again depending on room acoustics and personal preference.
I like "Season of the Witch" and other Donovan cuts like "Jennifer Juniper" for example as a reference track for setting up OHMs because it is a spatially sparse and simple yet tonally diverse production where the mix provides just a few sparse yet fairly detailed recording element locations across the soundstage that are easy to focus in on and access discretely.
If things are going well with the overall system setup, this cut sounds spectacularly detailed, spacious and lush on OHMS or any good system for that matter. If not, it will sound quite mediocre and bland. |
Para,
Believe me, there is a break-in period, both for the speaker mechanism, and the first time listener, with these.
BTW PT Deadwing is a very challenging album for most systems. When the system overall is clicking though, IT SOUNDS REALLY GOOD (kinda like Pink Floyd on Metallica's steroids)!! |
Para,
Glad to help spread musical enjoyment wherever possible.
I would not tune my system initially using Deadwing though(too much going on in general to be able to sort through things), but once you think it sounds right, Deadwing is as good an acid test as most anything. If it sounds good start to finish, I venture to say that almost anything else will also. |
BTW, I saw Porcupine Tree live on their FOABP tour in a small local concert venue nearby a year or so back and it was absolutely awesome! Strongly recommended
It was as loud as it gets, but very well produced and everything sounded phenomenal. It had to be otherwise it could have been very unpleasant at those db levels. |
I was in NYC recently and finally made it a point to attend a performance in the main Stern Auditorium at Carnegie Hall.
In the back of my mind I also had the unsubstantiated assertion I had read a while back on the net that OHM Walsh speakers were voiced to sound like Carnegie Hall. Could that be true? If so, what does Carnegie Hall Sound like?
I asked the ticket clerk at the hall to recommend good seats to listen from. I sat in the front row of the "Dress Circle" level, just right of center and well elevated about 2/3 of the way up above stage level.
The program included various chamber orchestras and choruses performing various spiritual pieces. It was a most enjoyable performance overall and I would have to give at least some credit to the venue itself for making it that.
I think Stern once commented that the hall is an instrument in itself, which I would have to agree with. The hall delivered fantastic clarity and detail to the performance. Soloists and percussion in particular seemed to smoothly and cleanly resonate within the venue. My eyes teared on several occasions.
So what of the assertion regarding the OHMs? I'll just say that I felt right at home, albeit on a larger scale, with what I heard and leave it at that.
One thing I found very interesting was that a lot of the sound that reached my ear was reflected from the rear stage walls. I say that because the sound of soloists performing at stage level seemed to eminate from a point that was a good 12' or more vertically over their actual location, a very surreal effect I do not recall ever hearing to this degree anywhere else. |
Mamboni, thanks for sharing that.
I picked up the recently recovered Monk/Coltrane recording from Carnegie at the Hall's gift shop. It is a real treat.
One of the most amazing sounding recordings I own on the Walshs is the "Classic Concert" recording with Mel Torme and company from back in the 80's.
I think it is at the end of "Round Midnight" on this recording where Torme hits an extended high note that seems to come from behind and above me off the Walsh 5's. There were a few moments sitting in the hall involving a celeste or cymbal of some sort where the high frequency sound did a similar trick while I was sitting a good ways up and back, front row, Dress Circle. It was very cool! |
Joe, I sold many C2s years ago and still own L's.
I recall the C2s having the brightest inherent timbre of any OHM speaker save perhaps the E, which was a much lesser speaker. Not sure what the OHM C2 upgrade does in this regard, though I am certain it extends the low end.
My L's have the OHM sub bass activator tweak and a custom Morel woofer upgrade I installed myself. These sound best with good SS amplification I have found. Until I upgraded my amp from an older Carver m4.0t to the current MF A3CR (higher Current), I actually preferred the Ls to my Walsh 2s (100S3 drivers)for certain pop/rock recordings. The MF is lower watts (150w/ch) but higher current than the Carver (360w/ch) was. The OHM Walsh speakers need this to really shine.
Also, the Walshes need to break in and are inherently less efficient than C2s I believe, so they do require more power to truly thrive. I am not familiar with your Mac, but it is possible that an amp that does fine with the C2s may not do as well with the Walshes.
Aside from this, the presentation of the Walshes is totally different than the more conventional OHM box designs. That will never change. |
Oh, and the prices for the upgraded classic OHM C2s and Hs appear to be only $100 more than those models sold for new back in the 70s. That would seem to indicate a good value. I preferred the OHMs over all other lines we carried back then including Advent, Infinity, EPI/Epicure, JBL, and Electrovoice.
Hs would probably knock your socks off these days with a good modern amp. Those babies rocked! |
Marty,
Have you ever heard the Magico Minis?
Cost aside, these always leave an impression with me when I hear them and was interested in your take on them if you have? |
Actually, now over $30000 pair, up $10000 from last year.
Yikes is right!
Apparently, people are buying them and they were quite ear catching both times I've heard them. Transient attack was one of the best I've heard, yet they seemed relatively easy on the ear regardless. Not all recordings I heard struck me uniquely, but the piano and percussion in particular on a few remastered cuts off Billy Joel's "The Stranger" did.
Last time I heard them about a year ago, on the same system at Sound By Singer in NYC, using a high end VAC amp, VTL pre, and DCS Puccini player (all very pricey as well), the naturalness of massed strings in an orchestral work struck me as well and led me towards a few tweaks in my system as a result.
They are price is no object statement speakers with very high build quality and a useful reference as such I would say. |
"But it's like falling in love with my wife- it seems there's always something new to experience"
Wow. This IS getting serious!!
LOL!! |
Joek,
Sounds like a reasonable approach. My gut tells me that your Mac integrated is OK for the Walshes but that you will find you can do much better. The Walshes need current in addition to watts and most integrated tend to compromise in that area out of design necessity.
FWIW, before I upgraded speaks, I owned original Walsh 2's, OHM Ls refitted with basic Radio Shack woofers, Magnepans, and B&Ws all concurrently running off the same system but in different rooms just like now.
I decided to go the OHM upgrade route before going anywhere else. I was initially considering OHM upgraded OHM Hs (1 step up the old line from C2) in that these were always my favs and the price was very reasonable.
Then I was able to pick up my Dynaudios, which I always liked, for a reasonable price. These are excellent at what they do but not quite in the same league as some of the best larger full range models I heard around and my goal was ultimate satisfaction.
Then I decided to try my current Walsh 2's with the S3 drivers that I picked up for even less than refurbed Hs would cost used here on A'gon and tried that.
The S3s sound much different than even the original Walsh 2s or of course any box design, so I was not sure at first, but as things settled in, I never looked back. I liked what I heard enough to then splurge and I bought the F5 S3s from OHM for my largest room in addition to the Walsh2 S3s and Ls I already owned. Then my attention turned to tweaking the rest of my system to bring the best out of the Walshes. |
Guys,
I know this has been covered here and elsewhere prior, but just a reminder that more watts will let you go louder but current is key to delivering smooth tonal balance top to bottom at low to typical listening levels in particular with the OHMs due to variation in input impedance at various frequencies (often referred to as a "difficult" or "complex" load).
A high efficiency, high current amp can be identified by mostly double rated wattage output from 8 to 4 ohms and then ideally from 4 to 2 ohms as well. |
Foster_9,
Yes, not uncommon with integrateds. More juice and bigger transformers produces more EMF that can create noise in nearby low level pre-amp sections, especially phono pre-amp sections.
Though I don't think integrated amps are optimal for the OHMs, there are some very well built and good sounding integrateds nonetheless. I suspect the Blue Circle is one of those though I am not intimately familiar with it.
John Potis raved in a review about a pair of Blue Circle monoblocks taking his Walsh 4 mkIIs to an entirely new level and Blue Circle is using OHM drivers in their new speaker line as well, so I think Blue Circle/OHM in general is a good match. |
REb,
I did consider a hybrid integrated recently when upgrading and looking for a taste of tubes.
The Unisons were high on my list. I suspect the Unico does quite well with 100s.
BTW, I think current is a bigger factor with the larger Walsh drivers for larger rooms. I notice the difference much more with my 5's than my 100s. |
Good point Marty. Specs alone may be a general indicator but seldom tell the whole story. |
5000s. Nice!
They supposedly use new drivers and are more efficient, so power parameters for optimal performance might be different and I would expect less demanding.
Please keep us posted. I have not heard any user feedback on these new drivers yet. |
Bond,
From what I can tell from the specs, 45amps, 150w into 8 OHm and 2 ohm load stable are all good indicators for good performance driving complex loads like the OHMs. |
Nolo,
That is a very excellent sounding setup for the MWTs!
Would you be expanding that somehow to surround by adding amps and processors I'm assuming? If possible, I'd do that (keep with amp separates) rather than move to a surround receiver. That would most likely be a step backwards in terms of getting the most out of the OHMs.
I'm not a surround kind of guy, but if I were, I'm pretty certain I would prefer to build around OHMs and the wide range omni Walsh drivers in them. It seems a natural fit.
4.5 mkIIs are Walsh 5 mk II drivers (which I have never heard) on OHM 4 cabinets, right? I think this is the model that reviewer John Potis owned, reviewed, and praised.
Assuming this, from what I have read, yes, it should be a big step up for non-nearfield listening in a larger room in terms of impact and overall weight to the performance.
mkII drivers use a different tweeter than S3s I believe but the full range Walsh drivers are the same or mostly similar as I understand it. There may be a slight difference towards the top end as a result but mkIIs can probably be had for less. Its probably a very reasonable tradeoff, especially for home theater use. |
