Mapman,
Just ordered it. Thanks! :-) |
Wowie Kazowie....
I had an amazing experience with the Ohm's this morning. Had a few minutes to listen to some music and threw Steely Dan's "Gaucho" (a favorite) into the CD player. I remember when this album first came out on vinyl in 1980 and I've listened to it countless times since then.
Trite as this sounds, it was a revelation on the Ohm's... I heard detail and "air" and smoothness that I've never experienced before. Vocals floated in the air and Donald Fagen sounded amazing. It's hard to describe but it was just thrilling. |
When I say "flat," I don't mean without dimensionality. I mean that they don't produce the sense of fullness and "air" that the Ohm's do...
Honest to goodness, I don't want to get into a discussion about whether or not I've given the Arro's a chance. I do believe that this thread will be useful to someone who's interested in the Ohm's vs. the Totem's, not as a final conclusion, but to get a sense of how they differ.
As the very least, I think I can conclude that:
1) The Ohm's sound better to me out of the box than do the Arro's, in terms of imaging, "holograpy" and bass extension.
2) The Ohm's are easier to set up than the Arro's: because of the large sweet spot, they're quite forgiving of placement, and will actually tolerate and even appreciate being fairly close to the rear wall (mine are currently only 19" out). And, although this may seem trivial, it's nice not to have to mess with floor spikes when you move the speakers around... really nice.
3) The Arro's are prettier than the Ohm's, and their fit and finish is more refined, although the Ohm's are far from bad in either regard.
4) The Ohm's present a 6 ohm load, the Arro's a 4 ohm load, for what that's worth.
5) The Arro's are around $350 more than the Ohm's.
Okay, I'm done. ;-) |
Slight change in plans...
Well, the Arro's didn't sell on eBay, and now I'm rather glad they didn't.
After several days of listening to the Ohm's exclusively, I set the Arro's back up for a comparison, and they sounded.... well, they sounded great: detailed, open, great bass, room filling sound, huge stage. Why?
Maybe it's because I had the spikes coupled directly to the floor rather than sitting in "saucers." Maybe it's because I had the window shades up rather than covering the windows. Whatever the reason, they sounded terrific. The Ohm's sounded a bit "muffled" in comparison.
So I'm going to do what Tvad and others have suggested and not be in such a rush to get rid of them. I'm going to take time, as long as I have both, to break in both the MWT's and the Arro's, A/B them and see which one comes out on top.
I'll continue to report back as I learn more. Stay tuned... :-) |
Mapman,
I was using the spikes before (attached to the plinth) but the spikes were sitting in these little metal "saucers" that I got from the Totem dealer to protect the hardwood floors in the listening room from being damaged by the spikes. Now the spike points are sitting directly on the floor.
Also, I played them with the window shades up rather than down (the listening room has windows on three of its walls). I always assumed that things would sound better with the window shades covering the windows and dampening the room, but maybe that's not so. |
Mapman and Jaybo,
By the way, in your experience, hoe does the sound of the Ohm's change as they break in? John at Ohm told me they can take 60 to 100 hours to fully break in. |
That's what I'd suspected. |
Just letting everybody know that I haven't disappeared. I went back to the Ohm's from the Arro's last week, and I've been tweaking their positioning for best sound. I'll post another progress report soon.
By the way, can any of you suggest some good sounding orchestral CD's to throw at the Ohm's? Some stuff that's easy to get your hands on?
Thanks! |
Biz07,
Thanks for the comments. I think that what I'm going to do is a alternate between the Ohm's and Arro's, maybe a week on, a week off. Of course, the unreliability of sonic memory being as it is, it'll be an interesting experience.
Smholl,
Interesting suggestion with the claws... I think I've seen them cheap on eBay. |
wow very cool... Hope this thread has helped you! |
I think it depends upon the room (duh!) :-)
I started with mine about 3 feet from the rear wall and they didn't sound that great: the soundstage was attenuated and the bass was indistinct. I gradually inched them backward toward the rear wall, and at about 18" out, everything snapped into place. The room filled with music (in that distinctive "Ohm way"), the imaging came into focus and the bass response popped. I know that the CLS driver is designed so as to damp the sound that would normally come from the rear of the driver toward the wall, making near-wall placement much more feasible, but you still have to mess with them. But when they're placed properly, as Mapman says, "Bingo!", you know it. :-) |
Great, Marty. I can't wait to hear your impressions. I am still periodically swapping out my Totem Arro's with my Ohm MWT's. I'll update with some impressions.
Also, my Sapphire FINALLY arrived from being refurbished from SOTA, and my Bottlehead Seduction phono stage is almost completely assembled, so I'll have my vinyl to play with real soon now, too! :-D |
Well, I thought it was past due for me to post another set of impressions. I have been playing both the Totems and the Micro Walsh Talls as much as possible. I've been alternating the two speakers, pretty much one week on and one week off. Here are some impressions...
Both speakers are quite impressive in their own way. The Totems have tight, ample base, particularly for their diminutive size... there is some real magic going on there, for sure. :-) Also, with the right source material, the Totems are capable of throwing quite a large, holographic soundstage.
The Totems also have a quality that I'm not sure how to express, let alone evaluate. At this stage of their break in, they seem to express a very detailed, "transparent" quality. What is unclear to me is whether this is really neutral or a rather bright/forward tilt. Ultimately, I think that the way you feel about the Arro will be more a matter of personal taste than anything else.
Although I definitely see the great strengths of the Totems, I am still, at this stage of the game, somewhat more drawn to the Micro Walsh Talls. For one thing,they are capable of generating some truly profound bass notes... beyond "bass notes," it would be more accurate to say "bass energy." When the source material calls for thunder, these things can really thunder! I can understand why someone commented that John, the owner of Ohm, says that one some people hear them, they think there must be a subwoofer hidden somewhere. :-)
Another thing that the Micro Walsh Talls have going for them is something that, as trite a word as this is, I would call "coherency." The music hangs together in a seamless fashion that is quite striking. I really don't know how else to describe it.
Finally, the Micro Walsh Talls have the ability, with the right material, to not only throw a wide and deep soundstage, but to really reach out TOWARD YOU and fill the room with music. It's very involving, and sometimes, almost spooky.
Right now, I would say that Totems do have a bit of an edge, all things considered, in that "transparency" department, but I suspect that the Micro Walsh Talls still have some opening up to do, and that the Totems still have some settling down to do.
For now, over and out... |
Loose,
Thanks, will do. Happy to be of help. |
Well, I got in the new phono preamp (Bottlehead Seduction) assembled and debugged and it works! Haven't had any chance for critical listening, but this will certainly open up a world of vinyl-based music for me to explore with the Ohm's! more to come... |
ZOWIE!!
I finally got to play some vinyl with the Ohm's, the refurbed SOTA Sapphire and my newly built Bottlehead Seduction phono stage. I threw Dire Straights' "Brothers In Arms" on the TT and was mesmerized.
The guitars on "So Far Away" absolutely filled my listening room. "Walk Of Life" had amazing stage depth.... the hi-hat on the opening bars sounded several feet in back of of the rear wall of the room. Cool! More to come... |
mapman, I don't have any other phono stage to compare the Seduction to, but it sounds awfully good to me right now! |
Parasound and others,
I just haven't had time to post an update in the past couple of weeks, but I'll get one up shortly.... hold on... ;-) |
Mapman,
If they're aimed at their normal 45 degree angle into the center of the room, are the tweeter "paths" supposed to intersect in FRONT of your listening position, or right AT your listening position? I tried separating the speakers further from each other so that the tweet paths would intersect closer to my listening position, and it definitely affected the tonal balance... considerably brighter, and the imaging seemed more in focus... vocals centered solidly between the speakers, etc. I'm wondering if I've had them too close together? |
Mapman, thanks for the support.
Tvad, thanks a lot for reproducing that article here... lots of valuable info. |
Also, here's an interesting thread that specifically compares the MWT's to the Totem Arro and Hawk. Interesting reading:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/146114.html |
Well, now, the plot thickens once again...
A couple of days ago, I had all but decided to return the Micro Walsh Talls and keep the Totems. I just found myself drawn to a greater sense of "detail" and "transparency" and "airiness" in the Totems, as well as a sense that the imaging was more precise. I figured that the one thing I might miss with the Totems was the authority of the bass region that the Micro-Walshes deliver... the bass on the totems Totems sounds somewhat tentative or anemic by comparison.
I called John at Ohm to ask him about arranging a return. We spoke for a long time, and he questioned me about what I preferred about the Totems. He said that he had only heard the Arro once, and briefly, so he wasn't that familiar with them. Finally, he asked me to let him think about what to do and he would get back in touch.
John and I spoke earlier today, and he told me that he had prepared a set of modified drivers with the treble response slightly "goosed" in a way that might work better in my room and bring out some of the sense of detail that seems to be missing. "Audition the new drivers for awhile, and see what you think."
Whatever happens, these guys at Ohm are a class act... I can't imagine anybody else going to this much trouble for a $1000 pair of speakers. It's clear that John really believes in his product, and also, that he wants to do everything in his power to make his customers happy. I will keep listening and report back... stay tuned...
By the way, as an experiment, I moved the Micro-Walshes approximately 8 inches further out from the rear wall, and if I'm not mistaken, the imaging specificity seems to have sharpened up quite a bit.
By the way, Mapman, I think you probably hit the nail on the head when you said that the comparison between the Micro-Walshes and the Totems is not unlike comparing the Micro-Walshes to your Dynaudio speakers. I had actually auditioned some monitor-size Dynaudios myself (I think it was maybe the Audience 42?) and if my auditory memory serves me properly, the sound was not unlike the Totems: airy, detailed and a large, "etched" soundstage presentation. |
I assume that the "cage" is there to physically protect the driver unit. I swapped out the standard drivers today with the modified ones sent to me by John at Ohm and it was, maybe, a five-minute-per-speaker process: remove four bolts, lift off the driver unit, unsnap a plastic connector, and attach the new driver. It's all self-contained. |
Marcus,
Thanks very much for your post. I think you've done a good job of articulating the issues here.
I got to listen to the Ohm's a little more yesterday and I must say that the tonal character and image focus change quite dramatically when you adjust the distance between the MWT's. By pulling them farther apart and thus aiming the supertweeters to converge closer to your listening position, the high's are emphasized and the image focus becomes sharper. Now, I think I may currently have them a little too far apart, because yesterday it sounded as if too much of the sound was "stuck to" the speakers, which is definitely NOT the way Ohm's should sound... so I'll try moving them a little closer. But as I said, imaging definitely tightened up and the sound brightened when I moved them farther apart.
I, too, had mixed feelings about accepting John's offer, but I was so taken with his determination to please and make a sale that I agreed to give the modified drivers a try.
For what it's worth, my amp is a ss/tube hybrid, and I'm wondering how that affects my current results... |
Think I may have nailed it....
I tried moving the MWT's even farther apart, further than I'd ever have thought of placing them... several more inches from each other. The imaging has really come into focus and the tonal balance is considerably brighter, but the expansive soundstage is still there, only seemingly bigger. Brothers In Arms sounded amazing!
More to come... |
Mapman,
Yes, the sense that you can point to the location of the singers centered between the speakers, as opposed to things being "vague" is much better. The presentation is still different than the Arros (of course) but now that I seem to have optimum positioning for both sets of speakers marked out on the floor with tape, I can at least a/b them with a sense that they're both at their best in my room.
As I said, Brothers In Arms sounded amazing, and Supertramp's "Breakfast In America" (man, am I dating myself, or what?) also sounded great. Just wish had more time to listen. |
Tvad,
Good points. No, I've never had the chance... I need a block of an hour or two to just try one of those methods that you posted earlier, but I haven't had that kind of time. You do make a good point, though. |
Zkzpb8,
Yeah, it's been an interesting process. I played some Steely Dan this morning before going off to work ("Two Against Nature") and it sounded astounding... you'd have sworn you were listening to some sort of surround system, not a two-channel stereo... that's how much the music reached out and enveloped the room. Yet, with the Ohm's moved farther apart, the imaging was solid and lost the "swimmy" or indistinct character it had before.
My set of customized drivers arrived by UPS today. I'll report back about them soon. |
Mapman,
Yes, I have to say that Ohm is a very special company. And that remains true whether or not I choose, in the end, to keep their speakers.
I opened the box, and found, on top (the speaker elements are double boxed) a very long, Phillips head screwdriver, a very fancy, stainless steel, ballpoint pen with the Ohm company logo on it, and a note, signed by the president of the company, John, that reads:
"Thank you for choosing Ohm speakers.
We are sorry that you are having a problem.
Please accept this pen as a partial payment for being Ohm's field technician.
Your years of great sound is the main payment.
Good Listening!"
That's pretty special.
Anyway, the drivers are bolted down to a sheet of plywood inside the inner box. I will try swapping them out this weekend and report back. But I can't imagine another company going so far out of their way to make things right for a customer. |
Yes, I've seen that part of the review many times. It looks like the whole operation employs about half a dozen people. |
Zkzpb8,
Thanks for mentioning that review. I just reread it. Potis I think does a great job of describing the Ohm "sound." If you want speakers that are etched, hyperanalytical or ultra-revealing, these probably won't float your boat. And it's because the Arros do lean more in those directions, I think, that this is such a difficult and interesting choice for me. I'll be very curious what the tweaked drivers that John sent me sound like. Again, let me emphasize (for anybody who cares!) that room positioning does really affect the tonal balance and imaging specificity of the Ohms. More to come... |
Winegasman,
I'm grateful to you for your post... it's very helpful!
Have you played around much with the positioning of your Ohm's? I'm wondering if you've noticed the changes in tonal balance and imaging specificity that I have, in response to changing the speaker-to-speaker spread distance.
Also your room isn't that much larger than mine. Do you find the 100's to be well suited to that room? I thought that the bass out of the 100's might be too heavy for a room that size.
Don't apologize for being "long winded." I liked reading your thoughts! |
|
Newbee,
You mean toeing in the Arros? |
Mapman,
Thanks a lot for your placement advice. I think I'm awfully close to having the optimized positioning for my MWT's. Imaging is precise now and yet the sound "blooms" out into the room. Listened to Diana Krall singing "Let's Face The Music And Dance" tonight and it was mesmerizing. Donald Fagen's "Nightfly" sounded great, too. Very smooth and dimensional. |
Mapman, 2) aesthetics (what's inside sounds great but ain't pretty) Yes, I've seen photos of the innards of Walsh/CLS drivers on some eBay photos, and they're not pretty! |
Tvad,
I'm still figuring it out... the modified set of drivers sounds more detailed and "alive" than the original set... at least in an initial listening, but I want to fiddle with placement a bit and give them some time to break in before making that judgment.
As for being a permanent owner of 2 pairs, it's not financially an option... one of them will have to get voted off the island, so to speak. ;-) |
Mapman,
What was done to the drivers? That's actually a very interesting question! When I spoke with John, he said something like (and this is a paraphrase from my unreliable memory), "We have a lot of room to play with that tweeter." The impression I got was that he wanted to "goose" or somehow play with the tweeter response. What he did, exactly, I'm not sure, but the difference is palpable right out of the box.
For example, I have a Sheryl Crow greatest hits CD. The recordings are very processed, very "studio" sounding, and yet, very pleasing in their own, rock 'n roll way. The opening instrumental sequence of Every Day Is a Winding Road, begins with some noodling around on an organ (the notes seemed to float in midair... very cool) followed by complex bongo drumming coming from both channels, before the guitars kick in. The first thing I was aware of listening to this track, which I like quite a bit, was that the modified speakers really projected a sense of "fingertips slapping skins" on those bongo drums... I mean, they sounded great before, but now you could really make out the particular percussive surface being played. This was quite startling. Also, I was listening to The Goodbye Look from Donald Fagen's first solo album, which begins with a lot of Marimba and other percussion, and the sense of being surrounded by all those instruments was remarkable.
By the way, for what it's worth, I was interested to see the construction of the drivers themselves. At the bottom of the drivers, you see what looks like a typical speaker cone like you might see on, say, a 4 inch or 5 inch midrange driver. Not knowing any better, it looks as if the driver fires downward into the speaker cabinet... I mean, it seems to have a rubberlike surround and everything. Of course, you can't actually look inside the driver, so you cannot see the cone shaped Walsh radiator. But I do wonder what's actually going on in there...
Both on the old and new set of drivers, that bottom surface that looks like a speaker cone is written on with blue ink or blue paint. There is a date, presumably, the date of manufacture, along with an arrow pointing in the direction of the super tweeter. Also, each set of drivers is painted with the initials "JS" -- presumably, John Strohbeen. Also, the newer set of drivers each has the letters SP (presumably for "special") painted on it. Interesting... |
Mapman,
I think you were the person who recommended the Charles Dutoit recording of Holst's Planets. I was listening to a bit of it tonight on the Micro Walsh Talls and wow.... I was so taken in by the sense of concert hall space... golly! :-) And James Taylor's voice on October Road was also beautifully rendered in space. And Buena Vista Social Club.... My, oh my....
Okay I'll stop babbling now... |
Wow, cool, have fun, and keep us posted.
Yes, Ohm's customer service is excellent. John will do whatever it takes to make you happy. |
Mapman,
Yes, do listen to BVSC again. Especially the second cut... You can really see the singers gathered around a single microphone... It's lovely. |
Well, I've made a decision: it's the Ohms! I'm not sure which drivers I'm going to keep, the originals or the modified ones from John. But I've made a decision and the Totems are for sale on Audiogon as of today!
It was a difficult decision, but for me, the defining moment came last night when I was listening to an old LP featuring Dave Grusin and a bunch of other jazz musicians playing Vince Guaraldi tunes from the series of Peanuts television specials, on the old GRP label. (The album is called, Happy Anniversary, Charlie Brown!) I had had the Ohms set up in the system, and it just after listening to the third track on the album called, "History Lesson," I put the Arros back in the system, and felt a real sense of letdown: that huge, room-filling Ohm presentation just collapsed, and the Arros -- certainly no slouches in the imaging department, sounded "collapsed" by comparison. Additionally, there were times when the Arros sense of "detail" seemed to give way to a brightness that I found grating/fatiguing.
One of the things that this whole experience has definitely taught me is that while there are, certainly, speakers that are objectively terrible, a lot of what we argue about is a matter of personal preference. There are certainly things that the Totem Arros do exceedingly well -- for one thing, as the speakers have continued to loosen up, I have found their bass response to be astonishing, especially given their size. But if, like me, you find yourself starting to get hooked on the Ohm "room filling" sound, it's hard to accept something "less," even if the level of imaging/detail at times seems more precise.
Your Mileage May Vary, as they say! :-) |
Mapman,
And thanks you for getting me to try out the Ohm's! :-) |
Winegasman,
Glad you are enjoying yours, as well. As I mentioned, I'm still not sure whether I am going to keep the original drivers or the modified ones that John sent to me. Perhaps a pair of speakers like yours might be in my future, although I'm not sure whether the 100s would overwhelm my room, which is relatively small. Besides, having taken something of a bath on the cost of the Totems, I need to lay off my audio purchases for a while! Anyway, enjoy! |
Mapman,
Yeah, I agree, about pianos sounding terrific on the Ohms. I have some Diana Krall with well recorded piano that the Ohms reproduce extremely well.
Zkzpb8,
Thanks! And happy new year to you, too. I'll let everybody know what I decide about the drivers. What's a little confusing is that there are a couple of added variables in the mix, now. First, the amount of break in time that one pair of drivers has had over the other. Second, John mentioned (and I think it's correct) that speaker placement for the new drivers may be different than for the older ones.
By the way, my impression is that what he's essentially done is to provide the kind of high frequency boost that some of the larger Ohm models provide via a switch, but that the Micro's do not.
Jwtrace,
Great.... maybe John will just comp me on the upgrade to the 100-S3's! LOL! For all the publicity, that is!
OH, and check this out: I put the Arro's up on Audiogon, and they sold within about 5 hours! Even better, they sold to someone local who picked them up in Austin and paid cash. I was so dreading having to pack them up, especially because the plinths that the spikes go into attach to the bottoms of the speakers with something like Blu-Tac, and you can damage the finish when you try to detach the plinths. So not having to deal with the hassle of shipping was a blessing.
Mapman... By the way, the fellow who bought the Arro's was replacing a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52's, I believe. He was driving them with a Naim Nait amp, which I've heard is what Totem uses at show demos for electronics, so it should sound wonderful. He was very pleased! |
Good golly!....
There's certainly a sense of glee when you sit down with some music you haven't heard in awhile, plunk it on the 'table with your new equipment, and are blown away by what you hear.
So it was today when I came across a copy (unopened... how'd that happen??) of the Nick Of Time LP by Bonnie Raitt.
Cry On My Shoulder, a song I like a lot anyway and hadn't heard in years, sounded amazing, just amazing, through the Ohm's. It's not so much a matter of this sounds just like live music (although Bonnie's voice did sound awfully good) but more like, ah, so THIS is what the engineer was getting at! Electronic keyboards floated delicately out IN FRONT of the speakers, with Bonnie centered and set back between the speakers. I was pretty mesmerized.
Okay, let me know when you start getting sick of these gushy posts, but I'm really loving these speakers. :-D |
Martykl,
Just listened to excerpts of the tracks on Amazon and it sounds pretty trippy. I'll order it. Any other pop or other music you've heard so far that seems to show off the Ohm's well? |
Jaybo,
Really? I never thought of that as being so well recorded, although I've only heard Nights In White Satin, etc., on the radio. |
Are these all SACD's? That seems to be the case with all the living presence titles at Elusive Disk... |
Mapman,
Thanks for that! I'll look around. |
