"I tried separating the speakers further from each other so that the tweet paths would intersect closer to my listening position, and it definitely affected the tonal balance... considerably brighter, and the imaging seemed more in focus... vocals centered solidly between the speakers, etc. I'm wondering if I've had them too close together?"
Sounds like it.
You can try a slight toe out as well and see what that does if needed. |
Marcus001,
I recently have introduced some tubes in my DAC and pre-amp to the Ohms and have been 100% rewarded so far.
The Ohms have a difficult load to drive and are not ideal for tube power amps on paper, but I would love to hear about the results where someone has actually done this.
I've found the image focus is very good to outstanding when set up properly but the presentation is not the same as other designs that naturally image well, like good monitors. I can't say that it is better or worse...just different. To me , the imaging of the Ohms is more realistic if not as pinpoint which I like, but that is a matter of taste.
I concurrently own and run a pair of Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkII and Triangle Titus 202 monitors and have noted the similarities and differences from the more omni Ohms in great detail over the last couple of years.
Also the Ohms sound stage does tend to be naturally laid back. I have also found though that they seem to let the character of the electronics feeding them through more so than my Dyns or Triangles mainly because they are more full range and deliver a sound more in line with much larger and more costly designs, so the electronics used will have a big impact on how they sound. |
Martykl,
Cool!
Thanks for stepping up to the plate.
I anxiously await your report!
Rebbe, though I've never heard the Unico, based on my experience so far with the tube DAC, pre-amp and SS amp, I think the hybrid integrated is a very good place to be with the Ohms. |
I think my comments regarding soundstage collapsing applies only in the case of the adjustable Ohm 5's where I up the treble level using the switch on that model but speaker location stays the same. In this case I find the soundstage collapses somewhat compared to prior. In other words, if speakers stay equidistant, but tweet level increases (relative to the Walsh provided portion of sound spectrum) the soundstage may collapse somewhat accordingly.
With any model, moving the speaks further apart to get more direct exposure to the tweet should maintain a wide soundstage.
If the imaging sounds like it is in focus similar to the Arros correctly set up then I would say you have nailed it!
Congrats! |
When I worked part time in college at Tech Hifi, of the brands we sold I recall liking the EPIs or Epicures 2nd best, close behind OHM, tied with Advent, over JBL, Infinity, Electrovoice, Cerwin Vega (yuck!) and a few others. |
Reb,
If the image sounds "focused" then you've solved the imaging issue. Worst case is very small changes in speaker location might fine tune it even further.
Room acoustics/flatness is another story. Though measurements and tweaks according can be an educational and productive exercise for getting the timbre that sounds best to you if you have the time, both Ohms and Totems are competing under the same conditions in the same room. That might be enough to make the call if you think you've spent sufficient time getting each to sound their best. |
A cool thing with the Ohm Walsh speakers these days is that all parts of the driver, including crossover, is inside the can.
That was not the case with older Ohm Walsh speaks, like original Walsh 2s.
The crossovers were mounted separately in the cabinet. Upgrades from older Ohms to newer ones with self -contained drivers is a little more difficult at first (the old crossover board has to be removed or bypassed at minimum) but once you get to the new driver design, any aspect of the sound can be changed by swapping cans.
And the cans are the easiest part to ship to/from Ohm as needed.
A very clever, flexible and practical design for a company that lives on providing upgrades, tweaks and support direct to customers! |
At the end of the 6moons review of the Micro Walsh Talls, there is a brief section with pictures about Ohm, the company.
You'll see that they work out of very humble quarters and do little advertising to keep the overhead low, make products that are practical and affordable and put the money only where it really matters to make better sound. |
Martykl,
My guess is the MBLs are imaging champions for many because they are more omnidirectional on the top end than the Ohms.
The Ohms use a single soft dome tweeter these days in the series 3 versions as I understand it from John Strohbeen. These are normally mounted to face inwards 45 degrees. The soft dome design provides good dispersion as tweeters go, but it is not omnidirectional.
With the Ohms, when listening on-axis your ears receive sound directly from the tweets, the timbre is brighter and the imaging tends to sound more "etched" like more conventional box designs. When not, the timbre is less bright and the imaging sounds less etched, but the imaging still holds up in terms of being able to localize instruments, recording lines, etc. |
Some of the old, more conventional, Ohm FRS line was visibly a variation of the 45 degree inward tweeter orientation theme.
http://www.ohmspeakers.com/store_item_list.cfm?TYPE=CONVENTIONAL%20SPEAKERS&cart_ID=12191242340438 |
"quick impressions reveal that the tonal balance of the speaker shifts noticeably with my Prima Lunas "
That is what I would expect with most tube amps given the variable impedance of the Ohms at various frequencies as I understand it.
The CLass D Bel Canto amps would do very well in terms of maintaining proper tonal balance in the low end I believe.
My belief is that somewhat higher damping factors (>10 say) also benefit and I did look for that also when choosing an amp. |
Here's my homespun recipe as best I can describe it for best locating the Ohms based on my experience.
I find the sound overall is most balanced, focused and natural when the tweets are oriented so that two imaginary perpendicular lines projecting out from them cross just in front of your listening position.
Also, regarding best placement regarding soundstage and imaging, I go back to my observation in my Ohm f-5 review that the Walsh drivers act like sound projectors.
The imaging is best "focused" by placing these away from the rear and side walls so that reflected sound from each symmetrical location on these walls relative to the each speaker location arrives at your ears in the main listening location more or less at the same time, which is equivalent to saying that the overall distance the reflected sound travels is the same.
Regarding tonal balance, adjust the top end by orienting the tweeters accordingly and adjust the low end by moving the speaks closer or further away from the rear wall as needed.
Only much larger and more expensive speaks can match the overall lifelike presentation of the Ohms when set up properly, IMHO.
|
Martykl says :
"Ironically, many people have described the Ohms as very dynamic, while I find this to be their sole significant shortcoming."
What amplification are you using, what is the room size, and which drivers in the Ohms?
Room size mismatch and difficulties some otherwise very good amps might have driving complex loads are the most likely culprits for less than stellar dynamics I have heard. |
Marty,
Which Bel Canto specifically? Is it a Class D? Does it double or near double power into 4 ohm?
Also it appears you've had the 100s for about a month. Very possibly they are not fully broken in yet? Dynamics on my Ohm 5's improved dramatically over time in comparison to when they arrived.
My 100s were acquired 2nd hand and were fully broken in when I got them prior to the 5's, so I had these for reference as the 5's broke in. |
Marty,
Interesting results with the tubes and Class D.
I'd be willing to bet break in is a factor still at this point.
Imaging and dynamics improved significantly in my system with intro of the Audio Research sp16 tube pre, so I suspect some of what you hear is due to the tubes as well.
I'm curious specifically about the low end with tube power amplification versus the Class D, if it is full, extended, controlled, and balanced as well as dynamic with the tube power amp. |
Reb,
Did you get the details regarding what mods were done to the driver for you? |
Barry,
I was interested in and auditioned Gallo Ref 3's for my larger listening room after acquiring the Ohm 100's and prior to acquiring the larger Ohm 5's.
I auditioned the Ref 3's in comparison to the top of the line $11000 Quad electrostats. I liked them very much but the Quads clearly blew them away in most every way, at least when I heard them...there was no comparison as one would expect for the price difference. The Gallo Ref 3's did very well for their cost though.
I considered the Quads the reference sound I was shooting for and the Ohm 5s which were more in the price range I was shooting for refurbished. The Ohm 5's on my system are in that same league overall I would say but clearly with better dynamics and muscle.
I have not a/b'd the Ohms directly with either Quads or the Gallo' Ref 3's though. |
I have BVSC. I'll have to give it a fresh spin.
Replacing the old Carver pre-amp with the new Audio Research Sp-16 has really taken many CDs I've listened to recently to a higher and most musical level more in line with some of the very high end systems I have heard recently!
The sp-16 was a major improvement out of the box but seems to have opened up even further of late. The paperwork that came with it indicated it takes several hundred hours to open up fully. Wow! |
"But if, like me, you find yourself starting to get hooked on the Ohm "room filling" sound, it's hard to accept something "less,"
You nailed it. Most Ohm owners including myself would agree I think.
If I had to chose 1 pair of speakers, I'd have to let all my conventional dynamic design speaks, including my cherished Dyns and Triangles and vintage Ohm Ls go for this reason mainly. |
"Besides the room-filling sound, IMO, the crossover-less midrange really makes a difference for a more natural (piano) sound..."
I briefly suggested Walsh driver speaks for piano on another recent thread on the topic, but didn't go too deep into why.
The single Walsh driver covers most of the range needed for realistic piano from the low to mid-high range plus provides the sound stage needed to sound realistic. It is very unique in this aspect that lends itself particularly well for piano IMHO. |
Look for titles on the Mapleshade Label.
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/main/aboutus.php
My understanding is most if not all of these are produced using a simple two channel process that lends itself optimally to enabling near-point source omnidirectional designs like the Ohms or Morrisons in particular to produce a lifelike reproduction of the soundstage.
I have the title "Preachin the Blues" on this label and it works quite well.
I also have Lindsey Buckingham's "Out of the Cradle" CD and that also is quite good. |
DOFP was conceived mainly to demonstrate sound quality of a new recording system at the time.
I didn't realize how good the sound really was either until I played both CD and vinyl copies to review recently.
Check my review here on Agon of DOFP and a couple other Moodies recordings mostly of lesser sound quality. |
I can vouch for the Mercury Living Presence Recordings as well.
They are most unique and special and I seek them out regularly.
I have 5 or 6 titles all on CD so far. |
No. They are also out there in standard redbook format CD. |
The Ohms rule when it comes to pipe organ. |
The switches on the Walsh 5's essentially allow +/- 3db adjustments in four ranges: low bass, mid bass, midrange and treble.
These are for purpose of adjusting the response to room acoustics or personal hearing preference.
Sounds like the new drivers are more or less like tipping up the treble using the switches on the 5's. I do this on my right Ohm 5 but not my left to help adjust for the crazy acoustics of my L shaped room. That's the main reason I got the 5's instead of the 300's.
Unfortunately, Ohm does not offer these adjustments on the smaller models these days (they used to years ago ).
Decisions, decisions. |
Reb,
If it were me, I would try to get by with the standard drivers and use tip-in, tip-out of the tweeter to get the desired effect. I think you indicated at one point prior to getting the tweaked drivers that this had worked to some extent.
If the tweaked drivers still sound better to you over an extended audition duration, then go with them.
Just my opinion..... |
My Musical Fidelity A3CR is about 120w/ch into 8 ohm and almost double into 4 and does fine with the 100 S3s in my rooms that fall within the max room size recommendation for 100s.
I can also say that all the 100 s3 and larger drivers love lots of power and current, the more the merrier.
I had them on a Carver 360w/ch amp prior and neither 100s or larger 5 drivers ever winced being driven to very high SPLs.
I've also ran the 100s to great effect and without issue using an 80W/ch Tandberg 2080. This was not enough for the larger 5's though IMO in that the dynamics suffered, though they were still perhaps undergoing break-in at the time.
Switching to the Audio Research sp16 tube pre-amp recently also resulted in a major improvement in overall dynamics, both large scale and micro. The improvement in microdynamics and transients in particular was much greater than any I noticed with various amps.
Others report and I tend to believe that in general the more power and current you throw at the Ohms, the better the dynamics overall become. |
The 100s will probably work as good or better than the micros with your amp, but you may well be tempted to go with a bigger amp at some point to realize a real benefit.
Another thing to consider and maybe ask John S. about is that the micros are recommended for near field listening in any room size on the OHM site and the larger Walshes are recommended for general listening in various size rooms.
That's because the larger OHMS are just bigger and CAN go louder for listening further away when feasible in a larger room, but for more nearfield listening in a room your size, there will not be much if any difference with a larger model I suspect.
USing the Musical Fidelity A3CR (120w/ch) I've had my big OHM 5's in the 12X12 room where the 100's are currently. There was no real benefit with the larger OHMs. When I had the 100's in the larger room where the 5's are, there was....mainly the low end had more weight and balance and was more fulfilling at higher SPLS. Other than that the 100s sounded very much like the 5's overall.
I suspect the same would be true in your case with the 100s compared to the Micros. |
Agree with Tvad that larger drivers that also may extend a bit lower will generally work better near field as well as long as long as the room is not too small in which case the low end on the OHMs can become overwhelming according to some. |
One more thing. If the low end does become overwhelming on the Ohms, plugging the port on the bottom to various degrees can help to alleviate it. |
The 100s do go loud and clean.
Your amp would work fine and sound great I am certain. |
I heard about John Potis passing here a while back. There is a thread here on A'gon regarding it.
John Potis answered email questions I had about amps for the OHMs also. He was very helpful and very enthusiastic....seemed like a really good guy. |
Interesting that this is the first I have heard of the Decware radials. They haven't come up on other threads that I've read here that I recall.
Not much inforamtion out there on the Decware radial speaks. Their site indicates the older discontinued radial models have been out for at least a few years and there is a newer model as well.
Interesting design though and not outrageuosly priced either, assuming they sound good.
They don't call it a "Walsh" driver or design, but it does appear to be somewhat similar to OHMs from a glance. |
Wow, Rebbi, your hooked man and on your way to even better things I'm sure!
If you liked the micros I'm sure the 100s will float your boat even further.
I plug the ports on the bottom of my 100's with loosely rolled up socks to lessen the bass a tad when I have them in my 12X12 sun-room sometimes, otherwise, in my other 12X12 main listening room, I run them unhindered.
I do the same with the rear ports of my Dynaudios as well in that same room.
Adjusting the tightness of fit of the sock plug in the port tunes the low end as needed. Since the ports are on the bottom, nobody ever knows there is anything there. |
Rebbi,
When you get the 100s you'll now owe us some reportbacks on the sound differences between MWTs and 100s.
We audio geeks are very demanding fellows! |
I fell asleep last night with the music server serving up tunes randomly while listening on my 100s.
I kept waking up realizing how good things have been sounding of late on the Ohms as the Audio Research sp16 tube pre-amp seems to break in further, as the documentation indicated it does.
The combo of OHMs, and ARC tube pre-amp and MF SS power amp is truly out of this world. I cannot find a flaw at present.
I suspect your Unico hybrid integrated will similarly rise to new levels of performance as well with the 100s. |
NEver heard Decware stuff.
The ERR model is pretty new apparently.
It appears to be geared more towards the low wattage tubed/SET amp crowd, which is interesting. |
Me too.
Its all worth it if the result is the ability to thoroughly enjoy your investment in music though! |
I'm curious as well. I've never heard MWTs and this should be the most informative comparison that I know of.
I anticipate the 100s will deliver a sound that is essentially similar but has more authority and meat on the bones, like other much larger, and more expensive designs in a larger room might, at higher, more realistic listening levels, similar to what I have heard in comparing my 100s to Walsh 5s in both my smaller and larger rooms.
For near-field listening at more moderate volumes, I'm not expecting Rebbe will hear much difference worth getting excited about.
Rebbe, for an apples and apples comparison, be sure to compare the standard configuration MWT drivers, not the juiced top end versions that John Strohbeen rigged up for you, if you still have them. |
Oh, Rebbe, be sure to include something with some well recorded pipe organ in the shootout.
When all else fails, the low notes on a big pipe organ will really serve to separate the men from the boys! |
Marcus/Parasound:
Take a look at my system listing. The Walsh 2's in my system are OHM refurbished Walsh 2s with 100 series 3 drivers.
IF you are handy with a glue gun, you can also pick up old Walsh 2s and trade in the drivers and do the upgrade yourself.
Also Walsh 2s are very easy to refinish if needed. I totally re-did my original Walsh 2s, which I traded in towards the F-5s, years ago.
The fabric on the cover can be redone easily with nice custom fabric to match decor as well.
So you can easily pick up a pair of old, worn Walsh speakers for very little and with relatively little work, upgrade them to look and sound fantastic. Possibly the cheapest road to really great sounding speakers these days out there. |
And Foster, any news in your hunt for the perfect low end? |
" I'm concerned that the 100's are not as good for nearfield."
They should be as good or better for Nearfield as well at higher volumes.
The difference may be a wash at lower volumes nearfield.
They just go louder with more meat on the bones which makes them more suitable for listening at a distance in suitably sized rooms without losing anything.
I sit ~ 6 feet from my 100s which are also ~ 6 feet apart in a 12X12 room. |
100's/Walsh 2s are not too bulky and relatively easy to handle and move as needed.
You should see the big F-5s on the other hand. These are heavy and came in 6 separate boxes with serious re-enforcement for the big cabinet boxes. Thank God they sit on casters for easy movement.
Still for the big sound they put out, they are not so big compared to many mega-sized speaker systems out there. |
Interesting about the Blue Circle speaks.
There are other makes using Walsh designs, like German Physiks, but none other than OHM using OHM walsh drivers that I know of.
I'd like to see what is under the hood on those PEnnys. Maybe you could share some pics?
I recall a piece by the late John Potis that indicated that introducing the OHMs in his household to Blue Circle amplification took them to levels never heard before. I have that comment in the back of my mind when I say how I would love to introduce my OHMS to a really good high powered monster amp some day, maybe a larger Class D. I think I could survive easily with the Blue Circle amp as well were I to splurge though! I have this vision of it as the ultimate amp for the OHMs, at least among those that I have read about, based on John's published observation's. |
I found the link to the piece by John Potis that I mentioned:
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/bluecircle_bc8.htm |
I think the 80 watts are fine for the 100s.
The 300s and 5s are the real beasts to drive where the high power, very high current amps can add a lot of value, I think.
When I bought the 120w/ch Musical Fidelity amp I'm using now, I did it not certain that it would have the guts to drive the 5's well at the time. My plan was to resell it and move up right away if not satisfied. But the A3CR has been an overachiever since its arrival and I am hard pressed to hear a reason to replace it.
Still, if I had money to burn, I think I do covet those Blue Circle amps based on John's superlative reaction to them. I think a 250 or even 500 w/ch Class D might do equally as well perhaps also, but those BLue CIrcle big boys would sure be sweet..... |
HEy, check out the pics I found on the Blue Circle site.
http://www.bluecircle.com/index.php?page_id=8094
IS that a Micro Walsh can I see perched on top of the new $4000+ Penny's? |
Hey Rebbi,
While sitting here paying bills and listening to the 1983 CD "Fancy Pants" by the Count Basie ORchestra, I was reminded to mention to you to be sure to test out the bigger OHMS with some well recorded Big Band music.
Nothing separates the men from the boys in the world of larger high end speakers like how well they deliver well recorded Big BAnd music at realistic SPLs with some real "meat on the bones"!
The OHMs are champs at their price point with this genre in particular I have found. |
